Which midfielder should we buy to give Pogba more freedom

Discussion in 'Transfer Forum' started by YouOnlyLiveTwice, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Feb 6, 2018

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    The stats do alter that, since they show that actually, we didn't miss his creativity that badly. We still scored goals, and two of the three games we dropped points in, are fixtures which we have seen zero evidence of Pogba being of any use in. In fact the type of fixtures where it often looks like the team would play better if he wasn't in it. Since he has been back, we have had games such as Burnley and Southampton at home, where we have struggled to create chances, and dropped points. So you can't have it both ways either. Being objective isn't going "oh if you ignore the games where Pogba has played and we've struggled to create chances, and ignore the games where he didn't play and we did create chances, it proves that without Pogba we struggle to create chances" You can prove anything by just making it up.

    And not really. I'm not expecting Pogba to be a master at defensive duties, I am just expecting him to not completely abandon his positional responsibility, just because he doesn't want to do it. This is unprofessional. Being subbed off for refusing to listen to instructions from your manager, is unprofessional. It's childish. The idea that moving Pogba into a different position, will stop him from being prone to being childish and irresponsible, without their being any responsibility on Pogba's part to stop being childish and irresponsible, is stupid, and makes no sense. "Oh, sign this player and Pogba will magically grow up"...why will he? Because he's played in a different role?

    Pretending that it isn't unprofessional to ignore your duty to the team in order to do whatever you want, ignore your own manager, and leave your team struggling in a game they are losing, is just plain lying. It is indicative of everything Pogba does in a game. He does what he wants. If Paul Pogba wants to take on three defenders on his own, it doesn't matter how good a position a team mate might be in, because Paul Pogba will do what Paul Pogba wants to do. If Paul Pogba wants to have a shot from 40 yards when there isn't even an opening, that's what Paul Pogba will do. If Paul Pogba doesn't want to play in the position he has been put in to play, he doesn't play there.

    Literally none of our other players do this. Pogba might be more talented than most but he does nothing near thelevel required to be getting away with this kind of stuff at the age of 24. It's the sort of thing you maybe accept from a cocky 18 year old, on the basis they will learn and wont be trusted yet in the big games anyway. Entire games often pass where Pogba does little other than fanny around.

    The need for another midfielder isn't based solely around Paul Pogba, because if we sign one, he still needs to sort his shit out. If he gets played in this fabled position people have decided he needs to be played in, he still needs to grow up. It wont just magically happen. It didn't happen at Juventus yet people are willing again to just pretend it did to suit their argument.

    Signing a player based on something you are pretending will happen with Pogba, isn't a good idea. It's a terrible one. Signing a player because they are a good player and will help the team with or without Pogba, is a much better one.

    The problem with this is it's again assuming that all of the problems with Pogba's performance stem from him playing in a pair, and that it will magically all get better if he is playing in a three. He has played in a three for us, and his performances have been just as random. He played advance dof a pair at Anfield, and was our worst player. He played in a three at Chelsea last season, twice. Once we lost 4-0 and he was among the worst players, the second time he was a near non entity in a 1-0 defeat. It's presumption based on no evidence at all. THe only argument you get is "you clearly didn't watch him play for Juventus" from someone who also didn't watch him play for Juventus, but can pretend they did because it's the internet.

    And no it isn't all based on the Burnley game and it's quite silly to claim it is. Last season it was a running joke on here that Pogba would try to take on and beat players needlessly, or shoot from impossible positions. This season it has been a repeated criticism of him. There was one game at Old Trafford in particular last year, against Liverpool, where he seemed almost determined to spend the entire game making a point of being selfish with his decision making even when it was blatantly obvious it was costing his team.

    He needs to grow up and it's not really in any doubt. The problem with a 24 year old is if they haven't started to grow up, when are they going to?

    I am not disagreeing that a midfield three, with Pogba absolved of the positional and defensive responsibility of playing in a two, would suit him, because it would. He is naturally an attacking player. He's an athletic player. I think he's similar to Toure, in that you can get away with having him in a two against weak opponents, as he'll simply overpower them. Against a good side they will just have him chasing shadows....but, I don't think taking that responsibility away from him, solves the fundamental problem with how Paul Pogba approaches a game of football. It is just making excuses for him to pretend it does, and again, will just lead to us having this different set up, and then it not quite working, and then again people looking for excuses for it not to be Pogba's fault.

    It happens on here all the time, when people decide, for whatever reason, to see that a player can do no wrong. Kagawa played badly because he was played in the wrong role. Mata didn't turn us into world beaters becauseit was the rest of the team's fault for not making the right runs for him. Mhikitaryan was being bullied by Jose and that's why he played badly etc...sometimes you just have to accept that if a player doesn't do what they should do or what you would expect them to in a game, it's not entirely someone else's fault.
  2. Feb 6, 2018

    Devil may care Full Member

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    It's like you never saw him at Juve and think you can basically wear everyone out by bloviating. If Pogba isn't shackled with his positional defensive responsibilities then he'll thrive, it's a very straight forward concept, like Rooney said last night about how him and Tevez did all the work to free Ronaldo up, it's like how Benitez played with an extra CM to negate Gerrard's responsibilities despite him being even older than Pogba, that's what you do with your attacking players, you create the conditions for them to thrive in and negate their weaknesses, this is somehonw either escaping you or you just can't back down when practically everyone can see you're wrong, but you started that silly thread the other night and are now just digging your heels in. I'll leave it at that and if Jose gets that CM in the summer I'll tag you in once it's proven one way or the other.
  3. Feb 6, 2018

    Bobski Full Member

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    The question for me is if given the role that many say he needs can Pogba produce the goals and assists that freedom demands. Gerrard and Lampard were capable of 20+ goals , not sure Pogba has that in him, even at Juve he never came close to that scoring output. He can create but you could see why Mou would want more of a traditional 10 in the team.

    The great attraction of Pogba was that potential to be a box to box force, break the trend towards specialists and be more of an old style all rounder with everything in his game. I will be disappointed if he never learns how to play a proper midfield role, always thought he had a better chance of maximizing his potential deeper than as a slightly unorthodox 8/10 hybrid.
  4. Feb 6, 2018

    Cristiano Lell Global FA Rules Expert

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    I think the ownership of Wolves is somehow closely tied to Mendes and Gestifute. I can't imagine he would be unavailable for a bigger club even if Wolves get promoted, though. Would be perfect for Liverpool, too.
  5. Feb 6, 2018

    TsuWave Full Member

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    you lot are writing dissertations.

    just suggest the name of a decent midfielder and go
  6. Feb 6, 2018

    Rozay Not good at posting fixture lists

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    I think he has more goals in him. Those two scored a fair few penalties for a start, and Pogba, in a three would also likely get forward more.
  7. Feb 6, 2018

    RedDevilCanuck Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin

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    This New midfielder must specialize in keeping the ball. Must also be positionally disciplined and have the ability to go box to box but mostly be conservative to allow Pogba to do his thing.
  8. Feb 6, 2018

    sully1 Full Member

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    Interesting he let go of Schnerdlerlin, seeing as he was pretty much box to box and disciplined defensively. would have been a good partner to Matic and Pogba in a midfield 3
  9. Feb 6, 2018

    2cents Full Member

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    Apart from being completely useless.
  10. Feb 6, 2018

    Adnan Twitter machine

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    He's been mediocre this season and seems to be struggling. His immobility is being exposed.
  11. Feb 6, 2018

    SwSw New Member

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    Ideally, we should get a mobile, robust midfielder who is decent on the ball. I like McTominay but don't think he is ready yet.

    Pity Ander regressed so much. Was hoping for him to partner up beside Matic in the pivot.
  12. Feb 6, 2018

    devilish Phil Neville's #1 fan

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    Fellaini is leaving and Carrick will retire this year. That means we have two vacancies.
    In my opinion we should focus on Pogba. He’s after all our best CM and the future of this club. Now I’ve been following Pogba for enough time to know that his best role is that of a left sided attacking midfielder. He doesn’t score enough goals as no 10 and his workrate isn’t good enough in a deeper role.

    So what do we need?

    Well Matic will soon turn 30. That doesn’t mean he’s old. However he can’t play week in week out throughout the entire season and he certainly would need help as age starts to slowly catch up. In my opinion we need to bring a cover/competition for him and a partner who can share the workload.

    The former needs to be someone who is experienced enough to lead the midfield if needs be but won’t really bother if he spend some time on the bench. If he can fit into other roles then that’s a massive boost for us. I know he’s not the first option for most people in here as he’s not WC but I think Dier would fit the job. He’s young, he can play 2-3 roles (DC, MC and DM) and he wouldn’t bother too much if he doesn’t play week in week out.

    For the latter role, well, I think we need some real quality. My favourite would be Jorginho. His passing is top notch (he’s got a better passing rate then Verratti) and he’s quite a little engine (11km per game). At Napoli he covers the DM role and while the Serie A is nowhere near as physical as the EPL his experience in DM allows him to better appreciate understand the role and provide the support Matic may need.
  13. Feb 6, 2018

    2ndTouch Full Member

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    His whole team has a rather mediocre season. Compared to Modric his stats are still more than decent. That aside, he's a DLP. His job isn't to chase down oppo players.
  14. Feb 6, 2018

    Robindinho New Member

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    Might not be the player he was few seasons ago but what about Vidal?

    Him and Pogba playing just ahead of Matic in a midfield three. :drool:
  15. Feb 6, 2018

    NoLogo Full Member

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    I know he is getting old but if he doesn't cost an arm and a leg I would say let's go for Vidal and bring a young understudy in that is as tireless and aggressive as Vidal to follow in his footsteps in a couple of years.
  16. Feb 6, 2018

    poleglass red Full Member

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    at the very least he'd add a bit of aggression to the mid, something we clearly lack.
  17. Feb 6, 2018

    Cliche Guevara Full Member

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    I agree with @noodlehair.

    Do people think Pogba wouldn’t have responsibilities in a three-man midfield?
    Folk going on about the best of Pogba. What is the best of Pogba. The actual problem with Pogba is not that he can’t produce his best stuff, he can and regularly does. The problem is he can also be unbelievably shit due to pissing about.

    I could understand concerns over playing him in a two-man midfield, if he was playing well personally but leaving the team exposed. Then you might say there is a tactical problem.

    This isn’t happening however. He has a shite game, or doesn’t follow basic instructions for the position he’s been playing for over a year and a half. The ‘Pogba can’t play in a two’ brigade then give their obsession another airing.
  18. Feb 6, 2018

    londonredmaniac I suffer delusions of grandeur

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    Noodle loves Pogba :lol:
  19. Feb 6, 2018

    Adnan Twitter machine

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    Having watched him regularly at Juve his defensive contributions were never brought into question when he played for them. He actually won more total duels in his last season with Juve than any of our Midfielders and contributed more in goals and assists too in comparison. He also made 140 tackles which was only bettered by Darmian in our team who is a fullback.

    Deschamps got Pogba to play in a disciplined role at the Euros and he didn't have any problems following instructions. If Deschamps could get him to play in a disciplined manner then why is Mourinho struggling in that regard?
    http://www.squawka.com/news/the-com...s-best-position-at-manchester-united-2/733504
  20. Feb 6, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    I find the whole premise of "Who can we spend even more money on to improve our record signing" extremely silly.

    While Pogba is already fantastic player, it's not too much to ask him play like an actual midfielder at times. He's a midfielder not a #10 and that involves being aware of his defensive duties. This does not in any way take from his attacking game. He's good enough in a midfield two. And in fact his biggest issue seems to be decision making when he has the ball not him abandoning his defensive duties. He needs to realize when to try and dribble past the entire team and when to just lay it off and keep the game moving. if he does this then there's no reason why he shouldn't dominate the bigger games as well.
  21. Feb 6, 2018

    automaticflare Full Member

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    It’s not but it is rediculous to ask him to do stuff that other players of 20/30m could do while still struggling in attack
  22. Feb 6, 2018

    Alexit New Member

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    Jorginho please.
  23. Feb 6, 2018

    Cliche Guevara Full Member

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    Pogba can do it. He just needs to grow up a bit, and stop resembling a drunken uncle at a barbeque trying to keep the ball over the heads of all the kids and stumbling about.
  24. Feb 6, 2018

    UnitedBoy Redcafe Yahoo Pool champion 2007

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    Surely we'd have to go all out for nainggolan.
    But how is thiago getting on at bayern?

    Wouldn't be surprised to see khedira as one of them. Uninspiring but knows his role.

    Personally I like matuidi
  25. Feb 6, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    Being defensively aware is part of the CM's job. He's not being asked to chase a winger to the corner flag and play as a DM. In any case, I don't think he shirks responsibility. It's his decision making that's more frustrating.
  26. Feb 6, 2018

    L1nk Full Member

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    Pjanic/Kovacic is perfect, Weigl for DM then.
  27. Feb 6, 2018

    Frank Grimes Full Member

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    Pogba needs to take responsibility. The way he played against Tottenham was a disgrace, absolutely zero appreciation of his role. I would prefer him without defensive duties but the fact of the matter is no way Mourinho picks him and Matic in a 2 man midfield and doesn't give him defensive responsibilities.
  28. Feb 6, 2018

    Devil may care Full Member

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    The difficulty for Pogba in a 2 is that he can't produce in the final 3rd and be defensively stout, especially when the player he is partnered with isn't exactly quick and mobile, for instance in a 2 with Fernandinho or Casemiro he'd leave us less exposed. As @Adnaan pointed out he was a strong defensive contributor for Juve, but if you look deepoer into it a lot of the tackles and duels were won further up the pitch where his job was to press and win posession back, it's a different kind of defensive contribution to the positional issues a 2 man midfield brings up.

    For France he did what Deschamps wanted and showed nowhere near the player he is, he became just another CM for in order to accomodate the Griezmann/Giroud partnership. Against Spurs did Jose do what Deschamps did and ask him to sacrifice his game to play a subdued sitting role? Or did he want to have his cake and eat it, asking Pogba to both support the attack and be positionally sound defensively? If it's the former then Pogba is to blame, if it's the latter then Mourinho is to blame.
  29. Feb 6, 2018

    Adnan Twitter machine

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    The reason I brought up his defensive contributions for Juve in a three was because many were saying he would be a liability even in a three which is completely untrue.

    He can without a doubt play a deeper role as he showed when he played for France in Euro 16. But as you rightly said, then you lose the creative spark that made us shell out a world record fee for a then 23 yr old.

    Against Spurs I think his job was to support the attacking players because sitting so deep next to Matic the whole game doesn't make sense considering our back line was so deep. Pogba had to support our front 4 who were getting isolated from our midfield hence Sanchez started dropping deep to influence the game. The problem imo was that Matic was awful in a two and he just doesn't have the ground coverage to deal with players that are gonna hound him like the Spurs players did. Not saying Pogba should be absolved of any blame but it doesn't help playing in a two with Matic who the Spurs players were jogging around all game.
  30. Feb 6, 2018

    GiddyUp Full Member

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    There is still hope. I have slated him more than most but if he was just a bit braver in his play he would get a lot more games.
  31. Feb 6, 2018

    Ødegaard formerly MrEriksen

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    I would absolutely love to see us have a midfield with Pogba, Kante and Weigl. :drool:
    Not happening of course.
  32. Feb 7, 2018

    Adnan Twitter machine

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    I would be happy with that..
  33. Feb 7, 2018

    Fer Full Member

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    A player like Thiago Alcantara or Verrati would be perfect (and unrealistic). In your opinion, which is the best midfielder we can get this summer?
  34. Feb 7, 2018

    Adnan Twitter machine

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    We should go all out for Pjanic in my opinion and also bring in someone to rotate Matic with.
  35. Feb 7, 2018

    cantona7676 Full Member

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    Ok I am going to get absolutely slaughtered for saying this but here goes.

    Abdoulaye Doucoure of Watford could be a cheap alternative, he has just turned 25 can play CDM to cover for when Matic is tired and box to box in a 3 man midfield with Matic and Pogba, he is always excellent when I watch him play, he runs all day long is underated at passing and pops up with a few goals and assists, in fact reminds me of a taller Kante not quite as quick but better in the air.

    I know a lot of you are going to say not good enough and mediocre but most of us would have said that about Kante 3 or 4 years ago.

    Let the slaughtering begin :D
  36. Feb 7, 2018

    JohnnyLaw Full Member

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    I doubt anyone will slaughter you for it. I'm guessing you missed the thread on him from the other day;

    http://www.redcafe.net/threads/abdoulaye-doucoure.436342/
  37. Feb 7, 2018

    Oldyella Full Member

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    On paper, yes. Schneirderlin sank when he played for us, to the point of seemingly hiding from the ball. He has not been much better since moving on either. We broke him!
  38. Feb 7, 2018

    cantona7676 Full Member

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  39. Feb 7, 2018

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    Rakitic. He would be fantastic for us.
  40. Feb 7, 2018

    TRossManUtd8 New Member

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    In my opinion we missed out on the player we need to the most to partner Pogba and Matic and that was Tolisso at Lyon who has gone to Munich.

    I have a feeling that Tolisso will fill that role for France at the World Cup this summer. I was gutted when Munich got him for a cheap rate. Always a risk signing players out of the French league but the kid is like a young Vidal IMO