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Who is the historical 'Messi' of each league?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Fortitude, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Jan 12, 2018
    #1

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    As in, the single most dominant force proven per season in terms of both statistical and aesthetical performance; in other words by both subjective and objective metrics.

    I'm thinking Henry claims it for the PL, as within its parameters, he was delivering what would be deemed world class performance in practically every game for nigh on 7 seasons. He wasn't just scoring or assisting; he was doing both, and the aesthetics caused what is the equivalent of the City circle-jerk we're in the middle of this season.

    Going back to Division 1, pre PL, who enters the conversation when longevity, productivity and aesthetics are all paramount? I'm thinking Greaves and Charlton. But when it comes to the likes of Matthews and Finney, were they the absolute dominant force over the period of time we're talking about for someone like Henry?

    Anyway, who comes to mind for each league and how long was their period of dominance in the sense of the word being used in this thread's context?

    Here's an easy one: Brazil - Pelè
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  2. Jan 12, 2018
    #2

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Portugal - Eusebio
  3. Jan 12, 2018
    #3

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Serie A: Platini?? Because he was a playmaker+goal scorer, not much of a dribbler, but he was like Pirlo+Riquelme+Ruud van Nistelroy with freekicks of David Beckham rolled in one.
    Dominating goal scoring, chance creation and also controlling the team's tempo.
  4. Jan 12, 2018
    #4

    Trizy Full Member

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    PL - Henry
    Serie A - Maradona
    Portugal - Eusebio
    Germany - Gerd Muller
  5. Jan 12, 2018
    #5

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    shite I forgot about him:lol:
  6. Jan 12, 2018
    #6

    Ødegaard formerly MrEriksen

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    Wasn't Pele more known for his time in the US? Or was it both?
  7. Jan 12, 2018
    #7

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    Length of dominance is paramount. Is 5yrs long enough? Does it then open up the field too much?
  8. Jan 12, 2018
    #8

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Pele's Santos is arguably the greatest club team of all time.

    Pele in USA was like retirement tour, his legacy was built in the all conquering Santos, who defeated almost all the teams they faced, even the top European Clubs.
  9. Jan 12, 2018
    #9

    Mciahel Goodman Worst Werewolf Player of All Times Staff

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    PL - Shearer / Old Div1 - Greaves or Dixie Dean.
  10. Jan 12, 2018
    #10

    GuyfromAustria New Member

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    Would be a bit weird if you look at his Wiki stats:

    Years Team Apps (Gls)
    1956–1974
    Santos 638 (619)
    1975–1977 New York Cosmos 56 (31)
    Total 694 (650)
  11. Jan 12, 2018
    #11

    Ødegaard formerly MrEriksen

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    My bad. But let's be fair, I'm a diagnosed mental. Can't expect me to remember stuff before my time. :lol:
  12. Jan 12, 2018
    #12

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    Ligue 1: Jean-Pierre Papin, no? Or perhaps Calros Bianchi?
  13. Jan 12, 2018
    #13

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    French league: Zlatan - 50 goals 20 assists all competitions for his last season. Also symbolically destroyed the league, the opponents and referees. #French#Messi
    Neymar in the future #The#Next#French#Messi
  14. Jan 12, 2018
    #14

    Jim Beam Full Member

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    This should go down well among Ronaldo fans. :lol:

    Seria A: Maradona
    La Liga (before Messi time): Di Stefano
    Ligue 1: Fontaine, Platini, Bianchi, Kopa? Really not sure, Platini peak was in Italy and Kopa in Spain.
  15. Jan 12, 2018
    #15

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    Netherlands - Cruyff not mentioned yet?
  16. Jan 12, 2018
    #16

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    French league: Zlatan - 50 goals 20 assists all competitions for his last season. During 4 consecutive seasons, he symbolically destroyed the league, the opponents and referees. #French#Messi

    Neymar in the future #The#Next#French#Messi
  17. Jan 12, 2018
    #17

    Sayros Full Member

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    Agree with your choice, just wondering why the hashtags?
  18. Jan 12, 2018
    #18

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    We desperately need @Cal? to comment the title of your thread.
  19. Jan 12, 2018
    #19

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    Each Friday I'm a hipster ;)
  20. Jan 12, 2018
    #20

    Cal? CR7 fan

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    No need to comment, will contribute to the list...


    Champions League - Cristiano Ronaldo
  21. Jan 12, 2018
    #21

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    that was a class rebuttal:lol:

    But Champions League has to be Di Stefano.
    Scored in five consecutive finals, during that phase, he scored 38 goals in 37 matches while being the main playmaker of the team who roamed the whole ground. Insane.
  22. Jan 12, 2018
    #22

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    It's a fair comment at that. He certainly has fair claim.
  23. Jan 12, 2018
    #23

    Bubz27 Full Member

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    La Liga - C.Ronaldo.
  24. Jan 12, 2018
    #24

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Baggio - although not as mercurial as maradona
  25. Jan 12, 2018
    #25

    Simbo Full Member

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    There literally isn't anybody, except maybe Pele.
  26. Jan 12, 2018
    #26

    adexkola Arsenal supporter Verified Moaner City Lover

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    Surely Cryuff and Beckenbauer would rank above Ronaldo too.

    It's a silly inclusion anyways. This isn't about cup competitions.
  27. Jan 12, 2018
    #27

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    This to be honest.
    Who else is highest goal scoring and highest goal assisting player who also happens to win the WPOTY most times while playing in the league(Cristiano has won one in PL), and while also being the greatest creator, dribbler, goal scorer and overall attacking player to grace the league.
    Only Pele and to smaller extent the likes of Puskas, Zico, Cruyff, Moreno and Di Stefano(not much of a dribbler though).
    But Messi's longevity is much more than others.
  28. Jan 12, 2018
    #28

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    The problem with a lot of the great players is that they moved from a home league to whatever would be considered the best league of their era at some point that would invariably ruin their initial run of greatness and have them start anew in the league they joined. C.Ronaldo is a classic example, but there are 100s more like him.

    Staying solely in a single league and having a massive set of credentials is a relatively rare thing. Then to be utterly dominant on top reduces the pool of players further.

    Someone like Uwe Seeler has enormous longevity and was dominant and aesthetically pleasing for a number of years, but was he the measure of the league for all of that time? I really don't think so as other names could be said to have outperformed him during some of those years. Pelè, Messi & Henry were/are no less than par for the entirety and that's the measure.
  29. Jan 12, 2018
    #29

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    WC - Maradona/Pele
    Euro - Platini
    CL - Ronaldo/Di Stefano
    Serie A - Platini/Baggio/Maradona
    La Liga - Ronaldinho/Messi/Ronaldo
    Premierleague - Henry/Ronaldo
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  30. Jan 12, 2018
    #30

    Sunny Jim Full Member

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    Spain - rolando
  31. Jan 12, 2018
    #31

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    There's no way Greaves doesn't have a claim for England as he was aesthetically silky massively productive and had longevity in spades, too.

    I think trophies is more modern era with mega squads who damn well should scoop bucketloads of trophies. The individual remaining impeccable should be the barometer, IMO.
  32. Jan 12, 2018
    #32

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Maybe but Greaves never won the player of the year in England, and Charlton was largely regarded as the best English player of his time.
    Plus there was a certain George Best during his time.
  33. Jan 12, 2018
    #33

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    Shame that defensive players don't get a look in here.

    Bundesliga - Beckenbauer/Muller
    Dutch football - Cruyff
    Serie A - Van Basten, Platini (effortless domination), Baresi
    La Liga (apart from Messi) - Di Stefano
  34. Jan 12, 2018
    #34

    milemuncher777 formerly kid777

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    PL- Henry
    La Liga - Ronaldo
    SPL - Henrik Larsson
  35. Jan 12, 2018
    #35

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    True. At the same time, the reason they won was because Manchester United>* of the time and awards are always tilted to teams (who win) over individuals (that don't).

    That's not to say they didn't outperform him as individuals, rather that without a par team of his own, it's not a contest he could win.
  36. Jan 12, 2018
    #36

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Spurs were a solid team during the 1960s, it was not like Greaves played with bunch of nobodies.
    But yes playing for Man United is different thing, but I don't think, anyone would even argue that the likes of George Best and Bobby Charlton are superior to Greaves.
  37. Jan 12, 2018
    #37

    Mciahel Goodman Worst Werewolf Player of All Times Staff

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    Shearer dominated the PL in terms of goals. Ronaldo and co don't come close. He played from the start to 2006, averaging about 20 goals per season (with most of those coming for mighty Newcastle). His record will likely stand for a couple of decades (or forever, going by the increase in transfers abroad). Rooney was the only player of the last generation who had a chance to break it. Still might, but it's doubtful. Kane could get to 200, don't see him getting the additional 60+. If he leaves Spurs it'll probably be to Madrid. Don't see him transferring to another PL club.

    If you're taking aesthetics into account, then the likes of Zola, Cantona, and Bergkamp have as much a claim as Ronaldo and Henry (purely aesthetic terms). You could add Ruud and Rooney, even Aguero. If it's individual awards and goal scoring, then Owen won the Ballon d'Or, Beckham and Lampard both came second (Beckham twice).

    Surely all that counts in terms of dominance is goals scored for a striker. In that case, in the modern PL, Shearer stands by himself. Ronaldo might have had a claim but he gave his best years to La Liga and Madrid.

    Pre Messi and Ronaldo, I'd add Fat Ronaldo and Raul to La Liga.

    Totti for Serie A. Del Piero close second. Also Batistuta and Shevchenko in the contest, Higauin in terms of productivity (but in a much inferior Serie A).
  38. Jan 12, 2018
    #38

    broccoli Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    The rest is too competitive
  39. Jan 12, 2018
    #39

    Nedved Full Member

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    In modern times, Totti dominated the Serie A aesthetically and in statistical output for nearly two decades. Del Piero and Ibrahimovic have excellent numbers (and were pleasant to watch) too for many seasons.

    Ronaldinho must be mentioned in La Liga too. I have never seen such a combination of end product and grace. Big Ronaldo can be added too to both leagues, although for a more limited period.
  40. Jan 12, 2018
    #40

    whatwha Sniffs Erricksson’s diarrhea

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    Cheeky :lol: