Why so much time for managers?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Rajma, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. Apr 15, 2018
    #1

    Rajma Full Member

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    When it is painfully evident that someone is either not good enough, bad fit for the club or simply past it?

    With Moyes we held on to him for 5 months too long, same with LvG and now you see the same pattern developing with Mourinho were people are willing to giving another season while deep down knowing it will take us nowhere.

    Be honest, in modern era how many times managers managed to succeed or turn things around at the top clubs (if you don’t consider current United a top club step down a level below that (Dortmund, Liverpool, Atletico etc.)) after being underwhelming in terms football on show/trophies for more than a year from the start of their tenures? Genuine question that, any examples out there that would back up this logic? Or is it just pure wishful thinking?

    Fyi, I strongly supported Mourinho’s candidacy after LvG as I felt he was destined to succeed with us and bring us back to the top and felt that he clearly had intentions to be more attacking at the beginning.
  2. Apr 15, 2018
    #2

    AshRK Full Member

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    I back jose but truth to be told I wont be devastated if he is sacked right now. The problem doesnt end there, for people who think we will suddenly dominate the league with just a manager change may have to think twice. We have some bang average players here , and they have been here for long time. Yes jose must change , if he doesn't change he is a goner anyways but I look at our starting line up and cannot get excited seeing Valencia, smalling, young, mata,jones, fellaini featured as main guys. Now yes that is up to the manager to not pick them but there is no guarantee new.manager wont do the same. This is why I want if not all but most from the above name gone before I see new manager with us.
  3. Apr 15, 2018
    #3

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Only the first 3 are regular starters in the first XI to be fair. I agree though the problems at the club go deeper than just the manager. The best clubs in England like City, Liverpool and Spurs seems to have a better structure at the top.

    Squad planning is a major issue, it seems as though our signings are opportunity driven rather than some long term thinking.
  4. Apr 15, 2018
    #4

    Ballache Full Member

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    Question is, who do you replace him with?
    Never been his biggest fan but he is the right person to be in charge atm IMO. We need to adjust our expectations, he will take us back to the top but winning the league is going to be difficult. Our next appointment in a couple of seasons is going to be vital and I hope we are already planning it.
  5. Apr 15, 2018
    #5

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

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    There's not the same pattern with Mourinho and the previous two managers. Don't be ridiculous.

    He's got one more season which is fair considering he won 2 trophies in his first season, might win a third this season whilst improving the league form. His downside is the entertainment factor but Old Trafford is full, players want to play and sign for the club and they look good on paper.
  6. Apr 15, 2018
    #6

    AshRK Full Member

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    Jones when fit has been a regular, Fellaini if fit has been Jose's default go to man (see Sevilla game), mata has been given enough chances recently and is flattering to deceive. So technically these guys have been a regular in almost many games , maybe bar fellaini. Funny our defence comprises of three from the list I just shared.
  7. Apr 15, 2018
    #7

    Rajma Full Member

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    Fair enough I guess but one trophy was at the expanse of ridiculously bad league form, would you honestly consider this season a successful one for Arsenal if they somehow managed to leapfrog to the Europa League title? And you have to consider the money spent as well.

    However, I still waiting for some real world examples following the OP.
  8. Apr 15, 2018
    #8

    AshRK Full Member

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    Logically Mourinho played a smart card last season so one cannot bring the league from, had we not won the Europa then of course Jose would have looked like an idiot.
  9. Apr 15, 2018
    #9

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    I'm not saying they never play but they're not out and out regulars like Valencia and Young are. Smalling has established himself as first choice as things stand but he could easily drop out if Jose's mood changes and he goes with another pairing at the back. Certainly Fellaini, Jones and Mata are in and around the team but they are there to provide different options or back up.

    You're right that the 3 do end compromise of our defence which is why I imagine full backs are a priority this summer and it would be nice to have a centre back pairing that isn't always crocked.
  10. Apr 15, 2018
    #10

    simonhch Horrible boss

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    I want him gone but we aren’t ruthless enough to do that. At Real or Barca he’d be out at the end of this season after what he’s produced.

    Based on results he’ll get another season. I can get behind that, despite the fact I think he should go. But next season is absolutely make or break for him. We need a serious title challenge, and good football. Minimum requirements at this point. If those two elements aren’t forthcoming, there’s no argument left to keep him.
  11. Apr 15, 2018
    #11

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

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    Arsenal's season is not as good as United last season. Arsenal just lost their 5th away game this year and are 2 points ahead of Burnley and 13 behind 4th. We finished 7 points behind 4th and that was after we had given up on the league. Our problem that season was not finishing games, we drew a lot. Arsenal have lost 11 games already this season, we lost 5. We lost 1-0 to Chelsea (the best team last season) in the FA Cup in the quarter finals, Arsenal lost to Nottingham Forest.

    Even if Arsenal manage to win the Europa League both their success and performance on the pitch is way worse than ours last season.
  12. Apr 15, 2018
    #12

    Pexbo has never watched Star Wars

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    You’re asking to start a trend of impatience. Nobody is denying this isnt perfect, it’s work in progress and it’s exactly that. Progress.
  13. Apr 15, 2018
    #13

    Snowjoe Enjoys hatching eggs for people

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    I’m not sure people know what time is anymore.
  14. Apr 15, 2018
    #14

    AshRK Full Member

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    Real and barca are poor examples, they have ronaldo/ messi two of the finest players . Have you seen how those two from time to time single handedly win their club matches. It's also amusing people conveniently forget how real madrid had Jose as their manager for 3 full years and how less successful they were prior to that with changing and chopping.

    I again will go back to my original point , in our case just changing the manager will not be enough. We have been far patient with some mediocre players in our squad and love to overrate some.
  15. Apr 15, 2018
    #15

    breakout67 Full Member

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    Mourinho has improved from his 1st to 2nd season. Moyes had us in freefall, while LVG made us worse in his 2nd season.

    Mourinho has earned the trust. If we challenge for the league and go deep in the CL next season then he will probably get another extension.
  16. Apr 15, 2018
    #16

    el3mel Full Member

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    Maybe because it's not like that sacking managers is having any wonderful effect on the team so far ?

    The only kind of manager that we haven't tried post SAF is the young promising ones. We have tried a midtable manager that had stability long time with a club, a possession based manager and a pragmatic manager. Only thing remaining is a young promising one and after that people will run out of ideas of blaming managers all the time.
  17. Apr 15, 2018
    #17

    Rajma Full Member

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    Probably, but our patience approach in 5 years brought us very little dividends after spending tones and yet it seems nobody can think of relevant examples in recent past at a top level that would justify the patience way. If this would have been happening right after Fergie has left I guess I would have been more forgiving knowing it’s Mourinho but you just can’t help but feel the meltdown next year is incoming and it would be another wasted season. Ohh feck it, I’m not taking these dreadful losses lightly.
  18. Apr 15, 2018
    #18

    Gegenpress Banned

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    Is part of the problem expectation? Being used to winning for so long under AF.

    Or is it because there is a lack of progress, I’m really content atm as a pool fan and we are still behind you in the table.

    Every club has a bad result here and there.

    I think You should definitely keep Mourinho, please. Thank You.
  19. Apr 15, 2018
    #19

    Devil81 Full Member

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    Mourinho was always a short-term fix for me, his mission was to get us back consistently in the Champions League. I also had it in my head he'd challenge for the title but given City are in the midst of the Pep revolution I don't think Jose's style will win him a league title. He's far too conservative and he'd rather defend a one-goal lead than push on and take a risk for a second. He also doesn't attack games that need attacking.

    I would prefer it if he moved on during the summer and we replaced him with a more forward thinking manager. He's destroyed a fair few of our attacking players and I'm starting to get concerned about his use of Martial and Rashford.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  20. Apr 15, 2018
    #20

    R'hllor Full Member

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    Because we can not press that soft reset button every 3 weeks, specially in our case where we have feck all of vision regarding style of play, where they see club in 5-10 years.

    I said before many times i dont want JM sacked, the difference between me and those cultists is in reasons why i dont want him gone. That doesnt mean i dont have issues with JM.

    Lets say JM menage to force Afroman to sign a new contract and he gets a sack at the end of season. I wouldnt be surprise if those in charge bring some ultra tiki taka lunatic instead. Now imagine that. We already had similar case with Blind, we invested as club money in that player, we cant say we wasted money on him, its not like he flopped every single game but the moment they appointed someone not even close similar to LvG, we killed investment in Blind.
  21. Apr 15, 2018
    #21

    Judas Open to offers

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    We're 2nd in the league and we have been better than last season. He deserves another year. Would I cry if he was sacked, not at all, the football is too awful for me to care, but he's done more than enough to earn a 3rd season in charge. End of discussion.
  22. Apr 15, 2018
    #22

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    This is hard to argue though I think we all know it's going to end one way. Would you still believe this viewpoint if we end up 4th?
  23. Apr 15, 2018
    #23

    Judas Open to offers

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    Yes. Our football deserves 4th. But it would still be an improvement.
  24. Apr 15, 2018
    #24

    Rajma Full Member

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    Good point, the lack of vision from the top is staggering. Mourinho would have been a great bet to take over the SAF but now board probably would have came to conclusion that at United only coaches with attacking ethos can succeed given the expectations from the fans, so in a way I think after Jose we’re not coming back to safety first type of managers any time soon given we’ve tested the one with the highest possible profile. That’s the silver lining I guess as it’ll help us continuity-wise. I genuinely want him to succeed if he gets his third year but it’s very tough to see where it is going to come from at the moment.
  25. Apr 15, 2018
    #25

    Tjm118 New Member

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    I still back Jose as our manager. It was clear from the 2nd half against City that our players possess the attacking nous that many United fans desire. I think that Jose doesn't trust our back line enough to fully release our attacking talent.

    With aging players like Young and Valencia, coupled with players who make consistent defensive mistakes (Smalling and Lindelof to a lesser extent), and finally players who are consistently injured (Jones and even Bailly who seems to be injured more often than not at the moment), it is no surprise that Jose won't set up the team in a more attacking fashion. Hopefully once he finds a settled back line we will begin to see the horses run free so to speak.

    Oh and play Martial more ffs.
  26. Apr 15, 2018
    #26

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Great points, which is why I'm astounded Ed Woodward never gets any of the blame despite the fact that he is our de factor Football Director.
  27. Apr 15, 2018
    #27

    Lentwood Full Member

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    There really isn’t any point complaining about managers whilst the likes of Young, Valencia, Smalling, Herrera and Mata are starting on a regular basis

    I honestly believe that we needed 19/20 players post-Moyes to compete and even IF LvG and Jose had/do hit a 75% success rate in the transfer market that’s a lot of players leaving and a lot of players coming in

    When we do win our next title, it won’t be because we have a better manager than Jose, it will be because we have better players. Simple
  28. Apr 15, 2018
    #28

    MooseTheMooche New Member

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    There is one thing LVG got "right" during his tenure here. And that is his quote at the beginning of his first season, when he said it takes 3 months for players to grasp manager's approach and "translate" it onto the pitch. Of course, he then extended the interval by a significant margin, but it is not relevant right now. You could clearly see the instant impact Klopp had on his players when he arrived, same goes for Guardiola. Poch is an exception so to speak, but he warned tottenham fans that in order to mold the team into his it will take time. Now, I have absolutely no clue what is the style of our team, or what Mourinho wants for that matter. Ever since Moyes, we are treated with some turgid and lackadaisical football.
  29. Apr 15, 2018
    #29

    Eriku Full Member

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    Moyes wasn't good enough, in hindsight that was something we should have known, and at any rate it quickly became clear.

    LvG, not good enough?
    Mourinho, not good enough?

    Who's good enough?

    I think it's more likely that when the manager of a team, who's been there and has overseen the biggest change in the club's DNA and operations since its foundation, and who had the club purring in perfect accordance with his overall plan, then ANY manager will find it hard to slot in and take over.

    LvG managed to stop the bleeding, Mourinho got us from limping to running, and now we should chuck him out?

    With fans like these, who needs opposition.
  30. Apr 15, 2018
    #30

    M Bison Full Member

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    It’d be silly to sack him now, I’m amazed people are suggesting otherwise.

    Today was a dreadful result and an awful performance but to suggest sacking the manager is just nonesense. Who’d replace him? I heard someone on the radio say Steve Bruce!

    A week ago the team and manager were being lauded after the city result and the suggestion by many was that we’re a match for anyone in the league. This week we need to sack the manager and make wholesale changes to the team. Ridiculous.
  31. Apr 15, 2018
    #31

    wolvored Full Member

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    Who? Umtiti wants a new contract at Barca. I havent seen any other top player who wants to come here. I know theres a lot of paper talk but no top player has directly said they want to come.
  32. Apr 15, 2018
    #32

    wolvored Full Member

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    Mourinho will get a third season with the proviso that he wins either the EPL or CL. this will be his last season I think unless he does that.
  33. Apr 15, 2018
    #33

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    For me, it's not about expectation and winning/trophies (I saw them in Div.2). It's hard to quantify but it's probably a combination of style, attacking intent and mentality.

    Yes we're second and I'm glad we're making some progress in terms of league position, but it's not been good to watch in the last few months (apart from bits and pieces like 2nd half v City).

    You may be behind us in the table but not by much, the attacking style is good to watch and you're in the Semis of the CL... I'm not surprised you're content (or that you want Jose to stay).
  34. Apr 15, 2018
    #34

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Nobody realistically expects to win every match, but there is a certain standard that has to be reached in a match.

    IF you've had 20 shots, the keeper has had a worldie and somehow they've nicked 1 on the counter or a set piece then you can say fair enough bad day let's move on. The fact is though this Jose team serves up serious dross, we had 1 clear goal scoring chance at home against the bottom club. That just isn't good enough. Our performances range from 8/10 to 2/10 from 1 week to the next, there's just no consistency.

    That's more what the fans hate, it's not the losing it's how you lose.
  35. Apr 15, 2018
    #35

    Hugh Jass Full Member

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    This is to be expected because only one team can actually win the competition and you have six teams going for it. I think we are doing well enough. Much better than under Moyes and Van Gaal.
  36. Apr 15, 2018
    #36

    juggernaut1986 New Member

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    We had a structure in place where one man had absolute power for more than two decades. If you go back to 2013, you could see people saying something along the lines of "We are not like other clubs. We are patient with our managers". Even us fans believed in it genuinely because this approach brought us tremendous success. The problem is that you need the right man otherwise this approach can be disastrous.

    Our appointment of Moyes, giving him a long term contract and absolute power to do whatever changes he wanted clearly shows the thought process of the club. We wanted the next Fergie but we put our trust in the wrong man. It took so long to sack Moyes because we gave him a 6 years contract. He was sacked as soon as it was mathematically impossible to get top 4.

    Then LVG did a lot of damage with his signings. He spent money on average players while shipping out players of similar quality for peanuts. Premier League was very weak during his time here. A better manager could have won us the league in at least one of the two seasons he was here. It was obvious that his time was up in the middle of 2015-16 season. Apparently Mourinho didn't want the job mid season and there was nobody else available, so LVG stayed. We didn't sack Moyes and LVG sooner because there was no other option.

    We have learned the hard way that modern Football doesn't work like that. There should be a structure in place where manager is part of the system. But we seem to be driven as a business not as a Football club. We go for marquee players without a clear plan how to use them effectively.

    Having said all that, I think Mourinho definitely deserves more time. It is obvious that we have improved. Trophies in his first season, a decent points tally in the second which could have been worthy of a title challenge in any other season. Results like today are unacceptable and Jose knows that. He'll be gone if it becomes a norm. But he deserves another season. We cannot afford to sack someone who has steadied the ship and risk another disaster.
  37. Apr 16, 2018
    #37

    Acole9 Outstanding

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    Mourinho deserves one more season to get it right, if we don't make any progression then it probably is time for him to go.
  38. Apr 16, 2018
    #38

    Seven Seas Sardines Full Member

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    The horror..
  39. Apr 16, 2018
    #39

    carvajal Full Member

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    That's something I do not understand about United and possibly English football. The thought that a coach needs years to impose his style.
    It is as if the valuations were biannual or triennial and accepting the continuity while there is not a sounded failure.
    Of course in Spain and specifically in Madrid we lack patience at times but I think a few months are more than enough to see what the coach will offer long-term. Once you see the type of players he likes, the style, the tactics, I can not imagine a substantial change from the second to the third year.
  40. Apr 16, 2018
    #40

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

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    Players don't advertise that they want to join a club when under contract.

    We signed Sánchez 3 months ago. There hasn't been a bigger transfer within the league since RvP.