Why so much time for managers?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Rajma, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. Apr 16, 2018
    #81

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    We're the second best team in the league. Guardiola has spent twice as much to get to the point he's right now and Jose inherited a team managed by Moyes and LvG and safe to say in disarray.

    Do people really expected he'll win the Prem this year? Seriously?
  2. Apr 16, 2018
    #82

    Red Star One Full Member

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    Twice as much as Mourinho over the same period? I'm really not sure, though might be wrong. Also, it has nothing to do with City and Guardiola.
  3. Apr 16, 2018
    #83

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Ok, let's say City, not Guardiola per say. Guardiola inherited perhaps the best team of individuals in the league.

    Without City in the picture we're the best team in the league this year, yet not good enough for some people. Managers are judged on results and Jose so far has produced much better ones than his predecessors.

    Even if we're to replace him the only viable name I'd like is Simeone and his football isn't very exciting either. Not to mention not really available at the moment.
  4. Apr 16, 2018
    #84

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    You dont seem a rational person therefore its hard for people to take you seriously and debate this without getting a telling off from the mods but anyway I will try to throw a few crumbs of reality at you.

    1. This seasons record/point tally is normally good enough for a title challenge.

    2. Citys exceptional season has definitely skewed previous fact.

    3. City has spent much more money on a team that was already more talented than ours and their board has backed probably the best coach in the world.

    4. Mourinho has won two trophies and has most certainly secured us CL football for the 2nd season running. There is definite progress, whilst its taking longer, in the club and also the academy

    5. Two seasons is not enough to build a stable world class team. Chopping and changing managers just to satisfy impatient "fans" is not the way to get back on top.

    6. Replacing a proven winner with for example Pochettinho who, whilst I do admire as a coach, is a gamble as he is yet to win anything. Patience is whats needed.

    7. Mourinho hasnt built a full team in the mould of his previous title winners and to stop that now just to start from scratch is suicidal. He needs another 2 to 3 years to win us a PL or CL or both in my opinion and if he fails only then, bar a disaster, do you replace him.

    8. Stop getting wound up by the ABU press and rival "fans" on social media. I guarantee most of these Jose out threads ate created because of this.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  5. Apr 16, 2018
    #85

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    Did LVG not have a pretty decent record v the top teams his problems mostly came v the smaller teams who sat back and countered us
  6. Apr 16, 2018
    #86

    Siorac Full Member

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    Thing is, we're talking about a manager who never, not once, stayed beyond three full seasons at any club. The only club where he even started a fourth one was Chelsea. The idea that he would need five years to bring success is odd; he's never done the sort of long-term building you seem to expect of him.
  7. Apr 16, 2018
    #87

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    Agreed but these things can change.
  8. Apr 16, 2018
    #88

    Nikelesh Reddy Full Member

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    Firstly,Mourinho hasn't exactly been underwhelming in terms of "trophies" for more than a year as you put it....He won 2 trophies including a major European trophy last season,and we are still in with a chance of winning another one this season,so he hasn't been underwhelming in terms of trophies,considering the fact that we were a mess when he took over.

    Secondly,Diego Simeone took over Athletico when they finished 7th in the league....He finished 5th in his 1st season,3rd in his 2nd season and he won the league in his 3rd...So he slowly and gradually managed to turn things around...

    Juergen Kloop took over Dortmund in 2008,finished 6th in his 1st season....Then finished 5th in his 2nd season,before eventually winning back to back titles in his 3rd and 4th seasons...So you see,this was gradual,slow progression as well....

    So it's just simply ridiculous to say that no manager has managed to turn things around at a top club after getting off to an underwhelming start.And its equally ridiculous to compare Mourinho with Moyes or LVG...Moyes took over the champions and dragged them down to 7th....LVG finished 5th in his 2nd season which was a clear sign of regression...Mourinho has taken the team from 6th to 2nd,has beaten every top 6 team at least once this season and will probably end up with more than 80 points this season.,..He just needs to sort out the midfield and he needs to sign a top attacking LB and a good ball playing CB...

    It's ridiculous to compare this season with LVG's 2nd season,let alone Moyes's disastrous 10 months....
  9. Apr 16, 2018
    #89

    RedNed77 Full Member

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    What's it to you???
    Erm, how would you describe Madrids success levels since they got sick of his shit got rid of him? Which is probably much more relevant to this discussion.
  10. Apr 16, 2018
    #90

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    Van Gaal never had us in 2nd place. Next
  11. Apr 16, 2018
    #91

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    Erm how would you describe the team he left for Madrid?
  12. Apr 16, 2018
    #92

    AshRK Full Member

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    They did not get rid of him after the first season, did they? Madrid got tonked by barca in his first season and finished 2nd yet didn't sack him. The original argument was madrid cannot tolerate mediocrity when in fact they were mediocre prior jose's arrival. People just like to remember recent success. And going back to my original point, had Ronaldo still be playing for us , we would have also won major trophies now. We are right now what madrid were between 2005 to 2011. Buying every superstar but success eventually came. Sacking managers was only part of the reason for them to be successful, it was clearing the deadwoods and having superstar players which ultimately helped them winning trophies.
  13. Apr 16, 2018
    #93

    Velvet Revolver Full Member

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    What is the time frame that should be given to managers? Managing a club is not always black and white. There are a lot of gray areas that we dont know or cannot understand (the reason why we are armchair critics).

    Moyes, I get it. He was the wrong choice to begin with no experience no charisma no good. Should not have got even 1 day at the club let alone 7 months. The club then signed an ancient philosopher in LVG who signed players based on his possession-based tactics. Now when you sign a manager you expect him to implement his tactics if you restrict the time the manager needs you are putting immense pressure on an already high-pressure job.

    After two years you hire a manager who is a polar opposite of the philosophy that was previously being executed not to mention the players he inherits. Managers cannot change fortunes in a couple of months. They need time and we as fans need to be patient or else we will become a club forever in transition

    Now I get it if we are not doing well at all. We have the best position in the table since SAF retired. We have won 2 trophies in 2 seasons. we have a good group of players which will be improved in the summer. We are clearing deadwood. You expect all these to be done in 1 season? while winning games and trophies?

    Even the so-called best PL side in the history of the universe needed 2 full seasons with lots of $$$ and all other teams around them to crumble badly to win the title.
  14. Apr 16, 2018
    #94

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    I believe in giving managers time but it cuts two ways. Firstly we must see true progress and his vision for the future, with the team showing signs of moving in the direction of that vision. With Jose I see nothing of the above except spending a lot of money on players and hoping the puzzle pieces falls into place.
    Personally I feel he should be moved on but at the same time I would like to see the club have a plan for the future and that we don't have either. Every manager that comes in determines what that plan/vision should be. Jose will be getting another year to fail completely and that will happen and after that we will get another manager and start nearly from scratch until the club set up a plan/vision for the future and then hire a manager that fits the mould of that idea. Not the manager coming in and setting out the vision of the club.
  15. Apr 16, 2018
    #95

    haram Full Member

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    Quite simply this. If it’s the same next season there is reason to believe he cannot take us much further and then we can look for a change. Sacking him now would be moronic.
  16. Apr 16, 2018
    #96

    RedNed77 Full Member

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    What's it to you???
    Are you saying you are unsure whether you'd rather win the league or come second in addition to going a round deeper in the champions league, or finish second and win nothing (yet).
  17. Apr 16, 2018
    #97

    Mr Anderson Eats, shoots, leaves

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    Same again as in 2nd place and a cup run? By that methodology, why don't Spurs sack Poch since he has gone from 2nd to 4th, losing ground on teams. Where is the balance of playing pretty but underachieving and an obvious if slight regression and playing style not as easy on the eye yet on for our best finish since Fergies last season, and a hughe jump up the table from last season?

    I honestly don't get it. Played wank for the last 5 years and first signs of a more stable house we want to get rid. We've had far worse seasons than this and far worse results.
  18. Apr 16, 2018
    #98

    haram Full Member

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    I mean the inconsistency in our play. Our points total is good, but we can still do a bit better. Also, we need a deeper run in the CL. That’s the type of progress we need.
  19. Apr 16, 2018
    #99

    Rajma Full Member

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    1. Evidently bottom teams are at their absolute worst state (Burnley are 7th ffs), hence I can definitely see a trend going forwards which will ask champions/anyone challenging to get 90+ points as a standard in the near-to-medium term.

    2. It obviously doesn't help but it is more than simply points on board anyway. Our points tally for me reflects our superior individual quality as a result of his eye for genuine quality in the transfer market.

    3. That I can give you, but you also tend to ignore drastic improvements certain players had under his management so far (Fernandinho, Delph, Sterling and KDB) those guys looked out of their depth before Pep and upped their performance several levels, now can you think of players that improved drastically since his arrival you can even take his own buys into equation as apart from Lingard I can't think of anyone else?

    4. Again after spending £350m + it is should be expected from any semi-decent coach and previously terrible appoints don't justify being content with simply grinding out the results.

    5. I agree it is not enough, but after two years you would at least expect to see where we're heading style-wise, I can't see it like not even a hint and many others share the same sentiment. Maybe you can guide us through our attacking style and approach?

    6. I'm not advocating for Poch, good coach but lacks the cutting edge for me.

    7. That's again just wishful thinking.

    8. Don't read any football related press at all as it waste of space and time, it doesn't have any bearing on me, personally.

    Overall, I respect your view but simply can't relate to it.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  20. Apr 16, 2018

    Red_toad Full Member

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    Sir Alex took over in 1986, we won nothing until 1989. Jose is ahead of the curve. Plenty called for Fergie to be sacked. If people can't see progress, then go look at the league table and the trophies in the trophy cabinet. Jose isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Yes the brand of football isn't appealing and certain individual results are hard to accept, but Jose is light years away from Moyes and what he did with the players at his disposal.
  21. Apr 16, 2018

    Mr Anderson Eats, shoots, leaves

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    Doubt we can be that inconsistent and finish 2nd next year. We need fluidity in our attack and I believe that will come. We still have a lot of squad players there with evidently no leadership in there. Roaring from the sideline doesnt get you over the line, it's the work on the training ground and the players desire. If we can get the right blend of the desire and fight Mou saw in Fellaini and more technically better - we need that character badly. Too many drop the head and wait for something to happen.

    Some of that lands on Mous door as well of course. Fight isnt in every player, you need to get it out of them. But it is one thing Mou has plenty off, I think it's some of the players knowing their days are numbered and can't be arsed. feck them out not and have 3-4 come in with the right mentality.

    Despite all that we have progressed this season. Some people talking as if we are down with Chelsea and Arsenal, when we have rectified results, now we need to marry that with a performance. Steps taken. More to go.
  22. Apr 16, 2018

    Rajma Full Member

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    Again I won't ever accept using Moyes and LvG as some sort of benchmark at this club. You unintentionally answered my question by going back to late 80s.
  23. Apr 16, 2018

    Red_toad Full Member

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    So you won't accept Sir Alex, Moyes nor Van Gaal as any form of benchmark. Good on ya!

    Lets use the league table and the trophy cabinet as a benchmark. Jose has out performed both of the last 2 managers at United and is very likely to finish as a runner up to a excellent Manchester City team and gain automatic qualification for the champions league.
  24. Apr 16, 2018

    haram Full Member

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    Yes, I believe next year will be better.
  25. Apr 16, 2018

    Rajma Full Member

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    Simeone inherited Atletico when it was a complete laughing stock and I suggest to take a look at the players he inherited, he pretty much took the same group of players to CLs finals and won the league ahead of Barca and Real. Does that sound as a fair comparison to someone who spent £350m+ on the new players, barely improved anyone and can't have the team playing any sort recognised style?

    Same with Klopp and Dortmund he came in after the season they finished 13th ffs.
  26. Apr 16, 2018

    Smores Full Member

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    Sometimes certain threads just feel like the person has come up with a new angle so they can have their own thread moaning
  27. Apr 16, 2018

    Danny Roberts Full Member

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    You won't see an example because managers never get the time they need. This sort of thinking is what is wrong with football.

    I can give you three examples though but you'll no doubt discount them. City could easily have got rid of Pep, Liverpool could easily have got rid of Klopp and Fulham could have got rid of Jokanovic.
  28. Apr 16, 2018

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    Money is only an issue if you dont win titles then? There is only one league title to win and City spent more money and they also have a top coach.
  29. Apr 16, 2018

    Skills Snitch

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    Cause we don't want to be like real Madrid. The current 2x reigning European champions or something like that.
  30. Apr 16, 2018

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    is 2nd our target likes ?
  31. Apr 16, 2018

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    It's the manager that picks them.
  32. Apr 16, 2018

    RedStarUnited Full Member

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    Those of you who has hope in Jose, man you guys are soldiers.

    We keep adding better players each year, offcourse our position/points will improve. We are not getting better because Jose is coaching us play better.

    The reality is Pep is much better than him at this point in their careers. Sticking with him hoping it gets better is delusional to me.
  33. Apr 16, 2018

    Vidyoyo Self-confessed coffee shop chat-up expert

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    Even if a manager came in then he'd be required to overhaul half the squad. It just doesn't work. Our wingers aren't working. Our full backs aren't working. Pogba needs somebody to take the pressure off him because he's a luxury midfielder. Our team is too much of a mismatch and we don't have players who make up for the qualities of other players. It seems that when adrenaline is high we can turn on the style but what we can't do is go into each week with a functional XI that works as a team.

    I'm more annoyed at our galactico policy than Jose.
  34. Apr 16, 2018

    Rajma Full Member

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    Money is only an issue if you fail on both accounts winning major titles and showing real progress in terms of style of play, I pointed this factor out in the OP.

    I can only speak for myself but I'm sure there wouldn't be such disconnect between Jose and fans if we really looked like a team, which knows what they're trying to do.
  35. Apr 16, 2018

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    Tell that to Barca and Real.
  36. Apr 16, 2018

    MadDogg Full Member

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    Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
    Or, you know, you may be projecting your own thoughts and other disagree in 'deep down knowing it will take us nowhere'.

    Moyes we should have gotten rid of earlier. Agree there, and there will be very few people who disagree. That was simply a disaster at every level. LVG we did the right thing. It was blatantly obvious we were going to get Mourinho the following season, so it was better to stick with LVG rather than get rid of him and put Giggs or such in charge for a couple of months again.

    Under Mourinho we have had a significant improvement both seasons. His first season was an obvious improvement from the previous season under LVG, and this season has been another obvious improvement. As others have said, in the majority of seasons we would currently be in a title fight and it's only because another team is potentially going to reach the highest point tally in PL history that makes us look much worse than we are. And now looking at next season, it sounds like Mourinho is targeting the positions which should, theoretically at least, make the biggest difference to our team and playstyle - one or two midfielders and one or two fullbacks. Exactly what we desperately need.

    Sevilla was certainly an issue, but it does have to be remembered that pretty much our entire midfield was either injured or woefully out of form when we went into those matches. Mourinho certainly should have done better still, but it's not like we were going there with a fit and firing team. People seem to forget that.

    Are there issues? Yes, and if those issues aren't improved significantly next season then it may be time to think about if a further change is needed. But Mourinho has done well enough so far to certainly deserve next season and the opportunity to improve further.
  37. Apr 16, 2018

    Rajma Full Member

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    + Bayern, even Chelsea used this model to the high degree of success until Roman stopped pumping money into the team and started shopping lidl.
  38. Apr 16, 2018

    MikeKing Full Member

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    That is it! :lol: Doesn't take much either
  39. Apr 16, 2018

    MoskvaRed Full Member

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    I agree but United’s problem is the amount of decision-making power concentrated in the manager, meaning a change of manager is much more disruptive than a change of coach at the clubs you mention. If we had a more modern structure, then there would be less at stake in firing the manager. Currently it’s a nuclear option which, unless the next guy is a Mourinho acolyte, may well involve another huge splurge on players more suited to the new man’s approach. This is how United used to be before they finally landed Fergie and hit the jackpot.
  40. Apr 16, 2018

    Mr Anderson Eats, shoots, leaves

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    But what is your actual solution? You say money doesn't matter if results come. But how long should you wait for results so? A few months? A year? 2 years? Pep spent last season and won feck all and just got 3rd in the last few games. Should he have been sacked?

    How many clubs have instant success after spending money and then more importantly maintain that level?

    It's just another Jose out thread.