Wrong Tactics

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Cheesy, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. May 1, 2012

    204Red Full Member

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    I think a lot of people are letting Rooney off pretty easily. And no the tactics didn't help, but FFS... He was dire tonight, the only time he showed any drive was when he was yelling at team mates. His passing was all over the place and he just didn't show any threat whatsoever.

    He was poor when we crashed out of the CL, just as he was poor at Anfield, and again tonight... big games away, when the chips are down, he disappears too much.

    Sorry Wayne... when you mouth off about the clubs lack of ambition... you'd damn well better show some yourself... you didn't tonight.
  2. May 1, 2012

    lem8sh Full Member

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    I'd attribute most of his "disappearing" to the fact that the service he received was dire, Rooney is absolutely wasted in a 4-5-1
  3. May 1, 2012

    iAm20Legend Full Member

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    Rooney alone upfront, without Valencia on the wing = isolated, frustrated, no service.
  4. May 1, 2012

    Neutral BTV

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    Fergie with that lineup just about ensured failure.
  5. May 1, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

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    Fergie went with a previous winning formula (Giggs and Park in the same team) and thought it'd be enough to get a good performance out of them.It was a huge gamble that didn't pay off as it was a huge gamble not to sign midfield reinforcements last summer.
  6. May 1, 2012

    Ash_G Full Member

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    But the difference is, if you take the Chelsea games from last season that it was Rooney playing in the deeper role, with Hernandez ahead of him pushing back the Chelsea defenders because he looked to get behind them, and then you had park on the wing- and that's a big difference because then he can close down loads but he wasn't going to be a key player in our moves starting off. By playing where he did yesterday he was involved in our attacks too much and didn't have the ability to do the job where as Rooney did have that ability.

    Our two of scholes and carrick were fine but the four ahead if then were not a good mix of work rate and threat not in comparison to the front four they put out and thats where we went wrong.
  7. May 1, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

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    I agree with you Ash, I'm just trying to make sense of the starting eleven
  8. May 1, 2012

    Adebesi Full Member

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    It was more personnel than tactics. SAF has over-achieved with the squad at his disposal this season. As much as it hurts, we've done well to come in 2nd this year, really.

    The selection was a surprise but the only thing I really disagreed with was not starting with Valencia.
  9. May 1, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    It's a classic case of us not playing to our strengths and not imposing ourselves on big games. We left Nani on the bench against Barcelona at Wembley too.

    We invariably end up losing the game, I'd rather we actually went for the throat at some stage instead of our usual timid surrender.

    You're 100% correct in saying it's personnel rather than tactics. We don't have the players to play this way at the moment. Park is a shadow of his former self. We don't have a cast-iron backline to rely on. We don't have Ronaldo up front to win us a game out of thin air.

    Put simply, trying to shut a game down is not our optimal winning tactic. When has it worked this season?
  10. May 1, 2012

    Ash_G Full Member

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    Yeah it was an odd choice no doubt.

    I dunno I would say it was tactical. He don't have to play park and giggs but he chose to. Putting welbeck and and Valencia on would have given us more bite and more attacking power, but he made the choice to go with experience and it resulted in an unbalanced team.

    I don't like this whole weak squad thing. We have some players who might need to be moved on but in general I would say our problems have come from injuries, poor form from some players and in some cases some poor tactical choices. I wouldn't say the quality is poor we just didn't perform this season as we could and when it mattered we let ourselves down.
  11. May 1, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    He likes to play this way in big games. Problem is, we don't have the 07-10 Park anymore. We'd have been better off with more proactive selections and tactics.

    Too often we select a team to cater for the opposition instead of imposing ourselves.

    We're Man Utd. Why couldn't City worry about our myriad attacking threats?
  12. May 1, 2012

    Ash_G Full Member

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    Exactly, if we put on wingers who attack and can track back it would reign in their attackers as well. As I said as well the position that park actually played was a big mistake too imo
  13. May 1, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    Yup. And we fall into the trap of thinking, 'Park's got good energy, he'll put in a top defensive shift'. Fallacy - we end up doing more defensive work because he doesn't retain the ball.

    Best form of defence is attack, and all that...
  14. May 1, 2012

    Adebesi Full Member

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    It's not what I envisaged, what I would have done if I had been selecting the team. But there was no team I could put out from the available players I was totally happy with.

    I'd have played Valencia as I said, and I've have played Rooney deeper and started with Welbeck too, to give Rooney more of the ball and put our biggest fighter in the main battleground on the pitch, rather than isolating him.

    But it's neither here nor there now. We need to wait and see what happens this summer. And hope the players react to the challenge.
  15. May 1, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Who is this "07-10 Park"? Some of his best performances ever came last spring. In 2011.

    Granted, he's been poor this season but let's not pretend the decline started 2 years ago. It blatantly didn't.
  16. May 1, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    He was obviously hoping the big-game mentality and experience of the two of them would get us across the line. This was a gamble, considering how little they'd played in recent weeks but maybe he thought that would freshen things up and help us out-work them?
  17. May 1, 2012

    Adebesi Full Member

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    I don't like blaming it on injuries. Injuries happen. We should know that better than anyone. We need a squad that can cope with the absence of a couple of players. The midfield we need is hardly a bolt from the blue either. Our selection last night was the culmination of a lack of investment in midfield that goes back years.
  18. May 1, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    Tbh, I was a bit hazy on the dates. You know what I mean.

    I wasn't trying to imply it's a long term malaise, but his form this season has definitely dipped.

    General point is, this isn't the Pirlo-conquering Park we're talking about anymore.

    I can see what Fergie's intention was, but given Park's general form and lack of minutes, it was always going to be a tough ask.

    Like I said in the Carrick thread, I'm not one who's going to rush to criticise the little fella - thought it was a really hard game for him to be thrown into.

    Poor from Fergie, in my opinion. If he'd been thinking about Park for this game, he really should have involved him a little more over the past few weeks, instead of bringing him in from the cold.
  19. May 1, 2012

    Walrus Oppressed White Male

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    It's not the first time Fergie has come up with odd selection or tactics in big games and I doubt it will be the last. Unfortunately though these tactical surprises seem to be getting more common and less successful.

    Why can't we just field our strongest team and let the opposition worry about it, rather than whenever we come up against a big club, sacrificing half of our players to just counter threats from the opposition?

    Someone made a point in another thread that a stronger assistant manager might help in this regard and I am inclined to agree. Fergie is the best manager in the world in a number of areas - probably most areas - but he seems to be struggling with tactics in the big games recently.
  20. May 1, 2012

    Nani Nana Full Member

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    Some completely unjust slagging of Park going on. What were you expecting of him? He did was he had to, and did it quite well. Nullified Yaya Touré who appeared to be a lot more dangerous once he was replaced

    At any rate, we did not lose the title yesterday. We lost it at home against Everton and to a lesser extent Blackburn. It is reassuring to know we resisted City's ascent and would have won the title were it not for home performances poorer than usual. Last season we took every single point against the bottom 16 at home...

    Now it's time we move on and build on next season, with the youth we brought in this year, knowing that City will have to rebuild their team sooner than us.
  21. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    4-5-1 was the right way to go if we had any decent midfielders (other than Carrick & scholes). We obviously don't so we should have played to our strengths 4-4-2, its what we've played throughout the season but SAF bottled it big time before the game. It wasn't the time to lose your nerve.
  22. May 1, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    There's every chance he wrapped Park and Giggs in cotton wool for weeks with this specific game in mind. He's done it before. If their fresh legs had swung the match in our favour it would have gone down as a master-stroke.
  23. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    I think thats a fair point. We need someone who can offer SAF a bit of support with tactics and tell him the Park isn't good enough to play as a number 10.
  24. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    From football365: "United had lost eight of the last ten games Ji-Sung Park had started, and all of the last four in which he had started in tandem with Ryan Giggs."

    Shocking stat.
  25. May 1, 2012

    Varun Wants the D...

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    He nullified Toure, really? he was bouncing off him, i read here that toure had 43/45 passes in the 1st half itself. thats not nullifying by any low standards.

    The only reason Toure was even better later in the game was the introduction of De Jong that gave him the license to bomb forward with the ball which is where he's at his best, not the substitution of Park.

    Toure laugh at the idea and eat up the Caf servers if he heard that Park nullified him yesterday :nono:
  26. May 1, 2012

    Varun Wants the D...

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    We'd have been battered if we went with just 2 in the middle. You cannot go with carrick and scholes vs toure barry and silva. They'd have ate us up. the 4-5-1 was the way to go, it was just that the personnel was wrong.

    Neither of PArk or Giggs should have started.
  27. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    Toure was awesome!!!
  28. May 1, 2012

    Treble Full Member

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    Six of the players who started the game were over 30 y.o. Their average age was about 34.
  29. May 1, 2012

    Nani Nana Full Member

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    Nullifying is a bit too much, it's true, but Park's pressing on Toure in the first half was good, reducing him to predictable ball-passing. That's what Park was asked before the game and he did that part of his job right.

    Anyway like I said the title wasn't lost yesterday, and we knew the shortage of central midfielders would backfire at some point. We should have purchased one a long time ago.
  30. May 1, 2012

    gaffs Full Member

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    I think its simple - Fergie does not have the confidence in his players to take on City so he has to set us up in a negative way.
  31. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    I dont think "we'd have been battered" had we gone 442 (1-6 still sore?). We played 442 against the in the Cup and we were awesome. Once Welbeck came on we looked a much better team till De Jong came on.

    And if you wanted to play 451 who would you have played?
  32. May 1, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    We played 442 against 10 men in the cup.

    451 was the right way to set up. Unfortunately, the inability of Anderson, Cleverley and Fletcher to contribute (for various reasons) really fecked us over.
  33. May 1, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

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    Valencia should have started at least, it may not have changed anything to the result and performance but isn't it better to play the more in form and fitter players ?
  34. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    We played 442 against Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs in the last 4 months and lost none of those games.
  35. May 1, 2012

    Varun Wants the D...

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    PArk's presence wasnt what was stopping toure from making those bull like runs with the ball, he was just doing what he was told, sitting back, holding players off and distributing the ball to his front 4. You really think PArk could have stopped toure from making runs, he'd have been trampled over. It was just that de jong's introduction gave him the license to go forward and he did.

    And Yes, CM has been our achilles heel for a while now and needs to be addressed.

    Couldnt give a feck about the 1-6, just like i didnt give a feck about the 8-2 when we beat arsenal. Only retards would judge those scorelines as an indicator of the gap between us and city or us and arsenal back then. both were freak results.

    But, are you really saying you wanted a carrick scholes combo against that city midfield. we'd have been battered and i stand by it. You need to control the middle of the park to win games, that cant be done with 2 in the middle when playing this city team.

    regarding the 4-5-1,

    Carrick Scholes and Cleverley in the middle.

    nani and valencia out wide and rooney through the middle.
  36. May 1, 2012

    Ruud_boy_10 Full Member

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    I meant in CM, but yes, Valencia should have definitely started.
  37. May 1, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    That's risky though.

    Fergie said after the Rome CL final that part of the problem was that certain big players went into it 'undercooked' - and most of them had only had a week and a half, two weeks rest.

    Having not started a game since the end of Jan, this was a massive ask of Park and it showed. I don't blame him in the slightest.

    Not sure how anyone could complain about Giggs yesterday tbh. He barely wasted a ball and played with decent energy.

    We lost the game because of the way we set up in the wide areas and the subsequent lack of support for Rooney.
  38. May 1, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    How many of those games were away from home?
  39. May 1, 2012

    Varun Wants the D...

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    Or how many of them have a front 6 of Aguero Tevez Silva Nasri Toure and Barry to contain with?
  40. May 1, 2012

    Nani Nana Full Member

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    City is a different kettle of fish though, especially in midfield

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