I wasn't aware of that. It was reasonable to go for a win at Basel with a full team then.
Same Old Tottenham, Always Bottling It
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
That's the point I'm making. This season, even without RVP, Arsenal look like they will finish above Spurs. Surely RVP would have added a huge amount of points, as he did last season, where he won way more points for his team than any other player in the league. I think the same is true of this season as well. Basically without RVP, given how close they were last season, Spurs should have moved ahead of Arsenal, yet I think the gap between them will actually be bigger than last season. This is why I think their is a dishonest among Spurs fans at the moment, as they don't want to acknowledge this season has been a backwards step. The sale of Modric is often touted as an excuse, but it has nowhere near the significance of losing RVP, or as we've found out, signing him! We are 12 points clear, but had we not signed RVP, I honestly think we'd have finished 2nd.
My only pb with your post is that you're talking with some certainty whereas there is still a non negligeable amount of games left to be played.When the season is properly finished then we'll have a clear picture of who really improved from last season and did not.
The current 12pts gap is not set in stone, you say without him we'd be 2nd currently and we'd finish 2nd by the end of the season and I am not sure how to agree with that because last season the only difference with City was the GD, a City team that has actually gotten worse.
RVP has helped the team without a doubt but without him other players would have stepped up just like they have showed before his signing
We're being dishonest because we're supporting our manager? You can't honestly be portraying this as a negative?
AVB doesn't have the 'mandate' of the fans, any more than any new manager often does. There was a huge amount of skepticism towards him at the beginning and still some from some of our fans. He's made mistakes and silly decisions like any manager.
Actually, so far, in terms of direct comparisons of fixture vs. fixture, we have lost only 1 point from last season (and we were set back 2 points by the Everton game). In terms of matchday vs matchday, it is again a loss of 1 point. This is despite losing 3 of our 4 best players over the summer, losing the player who was our best defender for the whole season and our best cm for the rest of the season pretty early on.
Ask most Spurs fans (and most football fans) where they thought we were going to finish at the beginning of the season and, if they were being generous, they might have said 5th. I don't think many people would have had us down as with still a very realistic chance of finishing 3rd or 4th with 6 games left.
Personally, I had this down as a transition season. Losing 3 of our 4 best players, new manager, possibly new style of play, making a profit in the transfer window, I wasn't expecting great things. So far, AVB's done alright imo.
3 out of 4 best players? Modric and van der Vaart are two I assume, who is the third?
Kaboul?
King?
King barely played the last few years and Kaboul wouldn't really play ahead of Verthongen and Dawson this season looking at the sort of form they've been in. Modric was a blow but he's been replaced by a very good player in Dembele (would have been even better if they managed to get Moutinho like they planned). Dempsey for van der Vaart was a downgrade too. I'd be pissed with Levy if I were a Spurs fan because they really should have spent the £50m they could afford to spend on better players - Moutinho and another forward (Llorente, Damiao, Lewandowski) would have made them a far better team.
Kaboul was awesome last year though
In his last 4 seasons, King made an average of 16 appearances a season. Not a reliable turn out by any mean but still enough to be relevant and still enough to make him our best defender for most of the past seasons.
Kaboul was our best defender last season.
No arguments there, we desperately need a striker (or two), a creative cm and perhaps a backup winger (though Townsend may perform that role next season). Our inability to replace Berbatov over the past 5 seasons is absolutely inexcusable. However, these things are always easier said than done. Llorente went to Juventus, the league winners and CL participants (and can probably offer more than us). Inter want over 20 million for Damio, a player who may completely and utterly flop. Lewandowski would be amazing however again, I fear he may be headed to a club who is more able to offer trophies, regular CL participation and money.
I feel a bit sorry for AVB, it was quite clear that Moutinho, Willian and possibly Damio were his top priorities. We had trouble with Moutinho and his external agents, Willian went for the Russian oil money and I'm not sure we'll ever spend 20+ million on a player like Damio. We'll have to be quite clever with our transfer targets I feel, someone like Jackson Martinez, Hernandez etc.
Remy would possibly be a good pick-up.
Yeah Remy would definitely be worth a punt. I imagine he is on silly wages at QPR though and Spurs have that strict wage structure, which I doubt they would break for Remy.
I'm not saying supporting the manager is being dishonest, but not being honest about your situation. There is a positivety among Spurs fans, as if things are moving forward, when you are at most likely to finish lower than last season. The being generous about finishing 5th things is nonsense. Sorry to be so outright dismissive, but it's simply not true.
Given the players Arsenal lost, which even the most ardent Spurs fan most admit were more significant than your losses, why would you not expect to finish above them, given how close you came last season?
Levy and AVB very clearly targeted a top 4 finish. AVB took the job on those conditions and Levy certainly wouldn't have appointed him, if he didn't convince Levy that he would deliver a top 4 finish. Yet your fans talk about transition, as you have done. I'm not sure any club can afford a transition season and Spurs certainly can't. AVB and Levy aren't going to be idealistic as fans are (though encourage to be by the naive media). The fact is, the damage of missing out yet again on a top 4 finish is far too great. The reality is transition means failure. If you miss out on the top 4, you lose key player, miss out on key targets and your rivals gain further financial advantages. It leads to continual transition. Hence it's an optimistic term used by fans, to mask bad news.
As a Spurs fan where is the evidence these transition periods really happen. In reality aren't you a fan base better placed than any to see the reality of football. For example, you went from a mid to bottom half team, to CL contenders from the moment Martin Jol took over. In his first season, when you finished 9th, from the time he took over to the end of the season, you would have finished 5th. The next season you missed on CL on the final day. There was no real transition period, despite numeorus transfers. The same thing happened with Redknapp. Worst team in the league, he takes over, you climnb up the table and then next season finish 4th. You bought loads of players and played differently, but there was no backwards step, which essentially is what is meant by "transition period."
This is why I said "dishonest", as having seen it all before, your fan base talk as if they haven't. I think you are playing as badly now as you have in 4 years. I think the last month has seen the worst Spurs football of the season. it's like you are going backwards, but not acknowledging it. I agree results have been pretty good, but the performances haven't warranted the points you've got and thus I think at the end of the season things will even out and you'll find yourselves in 5th place, 3 points of the CL place, having played by your standards, some really awful quality football. Yet a lot of your fans will see this as a triumph.
I think AVB is doing a fantastic job at Spurs. He's buying the right type of players: mostly young, and relatively cheap and on decent wages; play good football, good run in Euro cup, still challenging CL spot, and has mold Bale into one of the best player in the world. That's all in his first season.
Don't mind to have manager like him once the Don retire.
Don't mind to have manager like him once the Don retire.
AVB's done OK agreed. Fact is Bale has been incredible this year and I don't think even the most optimistic Spurs fan would have thought him to be this good. I think AVB has had a par season so far.
AVB IMO has been great for Spurs. I expect Levy to throw money behind him next summer.
AVB has gotten the best out of Bale, tbf by structuring the team to give him a free role. Redknapp was playing him on the right for while for some reason.
AVB has done OK, but Bale being fantastic hasn't totally been a coincidence either.
Strict wage structure? I am sure they have players on £100k a week (Bale, Adebayor). Remy can't be on more than that at QPR.
Think Spurs have done very well in the transfer window Demble was a good signing and so was Verthongen. llrios along with our Dave looks the best GK in the league and Holtby and Dempsey look solid enough. the only ones that's been less than impressive is big Ada who looks like he's putting in a half shift and Sigguson who is played out of position due to Bales new position. AVB has impressed me this year Spurs have done really well and were unlucky the other night. If they keep Bale and sign a couple of good players in the summer like say Nani and Lewdowski they'll be a threat IMHO.
I think Holtby as been a bit of a let down so far. I have no doubt about him becoming an important player for Spurs but I think they were expecting a bit more of an impact.
Sigurdsson has been better than Holtby for them so far if anything.
Think Losing Sandro for the season might be the difference between them finishing 4t and 5th though along with lack of squad depth and Adebayor sucking after signing a permanent.
Think Losing Sandro for the season might be the difference between them finishing 4t and 5th though along with lack of squad depth and Adebayor sucking after signing a permanent.
Agree with all of that. Sandro was a gigantic loss, the partnership he made with Dembele was superb. Parker is an ok backup but he just isn't on the same level.
It isn't nonsense at all. I have no idea how to find the thread but I remember reading the prediction thread at the beginning of the season on here and very very few people had us to finish 4th. It was the same when I checked a couple of the Spurs forums at the beginning as well.
Why were Arsenal's losses more significant than our losses? Just be because RVP is better than the best player we lost, doesn't mean that his importance to our team isn't the same as RVP's importance to Arsenal. There isn't the expectation to finish above them because, as I've already said, we lost 3 of our 4 best players this summer (sorry if none of them are as good as RVP....), we installed a new manager (who unlike Wenger doesn't have 10+ years of finishing in the top 4 with incredible consistency )and for some reason, Levy decided to support him by making a transfer profit over the 2 windows he's been here so far.
Of course we targeted a top 4 finish. But we're also looking at the long term. Redknapp was fired because he dropped his concentration when the England thing came up and couldn't keep his mouth shut. Plus some of his transfers weren't exactly with the long term in mind. That is also rubbish. Lots of clubs undergo transitions where they rebuild and your own team is included in that.
Go and read a spurs forum and then say that the Spurs fans haven't acknowledged the football of the past month
. But the reality is that some of us, especially the older Spurs fans, can see a bit more long term. We don't have a god given right to finish in the top 4, Arsenal and Chelsea are good teams who have been doing it consistently for about a decade now. And staying in the top 4, as we've seen, is much harder than breaking into the top 4. Had Bayern not bottled it last season, perhaps we'd be some way to doing that but unfortunately it didn't happen.
I reckon we will finish 5th. Which is, like I said, what I expected, what many Spurs fans expected, and what the majority of football fans would have said.
And in terms of transition periods, tell me again how Ferguson did in his first few seasons at Man Utd? Seeing as transition periods aren't a real thing and all.
What is Holby's use anyway ? In all the matches I've seen him I just can't seem to figure out what he brings or could bring to Spurs
He seems to be trying a bit too hard at the moment. My impression of him was also that he's very much about pass and move, which for a team that is pretty near the top of the table, I think we're pretty poor at and have been for some time.
Still, I'm hoping he'll do an Evra.
Forgot about Sandro. Probably your most important player after Bale this season he must be a big miss.
Kaboul also a big loss all season,
Utd should take a look at Sandro in the summer.
Kaboul also a big loss all season,
Utd should take a look at Sandro in the summer.
I think he was bought to play Van Der Vaarts role but due to the ineptness of Defoe/Adebayor they've just played Bale more centrally. From what I've seen he certainly isn't lacking quality or intelligent movement but maybe lacks the ruthlessness of VDV and has since drifted in and out of the team.
I think redmeister is talking a lot of crap. There's been a lot of changes including 2 very important transfers out, retirement of the captain and 2 season long injuries but they're still in with a great chance of 4th. It's that simple really, whether he's a fan of the football or not doesn't matter. Other teams are allowed to buy players as well
I think redmeister is talking a lot of crap. There's been a lot of changes including 2 very important transfers out, retirement of the captain and 2 season long injuries but they're still in with a great chance of 4th. It's that simple really, whether he's a fan of the football or not doesn't matter. Other teams are allowed to buy players as well
Fergie massively improved us in his first season and then finished 2nd in his his next season. So like Wenger, Mourinho, Mancinni and in your case Jol and Redknapp, the impact of their arrival was seen right from the start. But to use the early years of us as an example to support the idea of transition is poor as it doesn't take into account the circumstances. In those days there was no CL. That makes all the difference. And of course the fact we were able to break transfer records etc and pay wages beyond anyone else.It isn't nonsense at all. I have no idea how to find the thread but I remember reading the prediction thread at the beginning of the season on here and very very few people had us to finish 4th. It was the same when I checked a couple of the Spurs forums at the beginning as well.
Why were Arsenal's losses more significant than our losses? Just be because RVP is better than the best player we lost, doesn't mean that his importance to our team isn't the same as RVP's importance to Arsenal. There isn't the expectation to finish above them because, as I've already said, we lost 3 of our 4 best players this summer (sorry if none of them are as good as RVP....), we installed a new manager (who unlike Wenger doesn't have 10+ years of finishing in the top 4 with incredible consistency )and for some reason, Levy decided to support him by making a transfer profit over the 2 windows he's been here so far.
Of course we targeted a top 4 finish. But we're also looking at the long term. Redknapp was fired because he dropped his concentration when the England thing came up and couldn't keep his mouth shut. Plus some of his transfers weren't exactly with the long term in mind. That is also rubbish. Lots of clubs undergo transitions where they rebuild and your own team is included in that.
Go and read a spurs forum and then say that the Spurs fans haven't acknowledged the football of the past month
And staying in the top 4, as we've seen, is much harder than breaking into the top 4. Had Bayern not bottled it last season, perhaps we'd be some way to doing that but unfortunately it didn't happen.
I reckon we will finish 5th. Which is, like I said, what I expected, what many Spurs fans expected, and what the majority of football fans would have said.
And in terms of transition periods, tell me again how Ferguson did in his first few seasons at Man Utd? Seeing as transition periods aren't a real thing and all.
You think I'm having a dig at Spurs, but really I'm just pointing out your fans are burying their heads in the sand. A far more relevant example would be Arsenal, who have been in transition for 9 years! That's a proper example of what happens when a club is in "transition". The same could be said of Liverpool at the moment.
Like it or not, Tottenham can't afford transition periods. It fans that are pro a certain regime that will describe backwards steps as transition, but they decide nothing. It's those who run the club that set objectives and goals. Levy and AVB certainly wouldn't have sat down at the start of the season and decided that this season will be a period of transition. AVB would never have got the job on those terms.
Often fans criticize chairman for being too ruthless etc, but in this case, it's the fans who are being naive, as Levy understands the sheer scale of the problem if you yet again miss out on CL. Fans tend to be optimistic, but Levy is first and foremost a businessman and thus he'll be fully aware of what it means. He's lost Carrick, Berbatov and Modric. He's the one who deals in the transfer market, so more than anyone is aware of how hard it is to sign top targets without the revenue of CL. He'll be aware that Liverpool can only screw up for so long, as they are just a much bigger club than you. Transition simply means going backwards in your case and Levy/AVB are fully aware of this. My point is your fans (and many neutrals) aren't acknowledging this.
I can understand the neutrals as the results have been pretty good. But don't get why SPurs fans, who watch every minute of every game, aren't acknowledging that something is wrong. Results have flattered you and for long periods of the season you've been carried by moments of sheer brilliance by Bale. By the way, I like Spurs. My wife's family are Spurs fans and thus I watch all your games. I post more about Spurs than I do Utd (mainly as it's too easy to get angry debating Utd.) I'm a pro Spurs guy, but unlike most others who genuinely watch every single game and follow the ins and outs of the club, I don't have an emotional attachment and thus can be more objective.
Benteke could be worth a look for Spurs
They really need to get shot of Adebayor soon. He's so ridiculously casual that he even annoys me and I'm not bothered whether Spurs win or not. He must frustrate the life out of Spurs fans.
Holtby is kind of a jack of all trades. He has no clear weaknesses and is able to play the CM as well as the AM role. His most outstanding trait is probably his game intelligence and ability to organize the game.
He could potentially give the game of the Spurs more depth and structure, but I feel that he needs a integral role for that and is not much use coming from the bench. To obtain such a role, he needs one thing, though: time to adapt.
You can not throw such a player into a new league in the middle of the season and expect him to deliver.
That is also why I did understand the transfer itself, but not the point of time.
Ok thanks Sphaero, always good to have posters who have knowledge from players of different leagues. It doesn't help to have a clueless Adebayor up front not playing the one twos at the correct moments at best
Yeah absolutely, they have a very strict wage structure. Their wage bill is just over £90million which is less than half of City's at £200million and near enough half of Chelsea's too. It's closer to Villa's, Sunderland's and Newcastles' than Liverpool's.
I don't think any of their players earn £100k a week, Adebayor is on £80k from Spurs with City paying around £80k themselves. Bale is definitely on less than £100k, it's been mentioned as its supposedly being re-negotiated.
Even if Bale was on £100k though that doesn't mean they don't have a wage structure. It's one thing a club paying by far the best player in the team a high wage, but another altogether paying someone like Remy the same amount. It would feck up their wage structure because the likes of Sandro, Dembele, Lennon and Vertonghen could reasonably expect parity with Remy.
Chelsea and City are not measure sticks, though, because they operate outside of the normal regularities of management. They had seasons, when their wage bill was higher than their annual revenue. This is normally by all means economical suicide.
I`m actually suprised, that the Spurs have a wage bill of around 100 Mil €. I did a little bit of research and the most recent data I found is from the season 2010/2011. Back then, they earned a revenue of around 180 Mil€ and broke even in total. However, this was the season with their good run in the CL.
I admit, that I don´t have that much insight so maybe they found sources to increase their revenue in the last year without the reliance on the CL money, but as far as I see it, a finish outside the Top 4 would not only hurt them sportingly but also financially, right?
Did they bottle it this time around?
Arsenal since March have gone on a run, whereas AVB's team have looked tired.
Arsenal since March have gone on a run, whereas AVB's team have looked tired.
we've just set a record points total for a club not finishing in the CL, lost 2 games in our last 22 league games, won 5 and drawn 3 of our past 10 games and actually picked up 39 points in our last 19 games (as opposed to 33 in the first 19). Arsenal picked up 40 points in the last 19, Chelsea 37.
We've done a lot of things this season but bottle it wasn't one of them. Chelsea and Arsenal, two teams with a huge amount more resources than us, have just done better. They're really picked it up in 2013. Fair play, even if Arsenal got a tad fortunate with some of who they had to play right at the end of the season.
Copied from the other thread. Last year we bottled it. This year, definitely not imo.
We've done a lot of things this season but bottle it wasn't one of them. Chelsea and Arsenal, two teams with a huge amount more resources than us, have just done better. They're really picked it up in 2013. Fair play, even if Arsenal got a tad fortunate with some of who they had to play right at the end of the season.
Copied from the other thread. Last year we bottled it. This year, definitely not imo.
No as they've been doing pretty well. Us and Spurs have garnered so much points that we have pushed Arsenal and Chelsea to do one better and unfortunately for us two they managed it. Both our points hauls would have been enough to get into the CL in many previous seasons.
A few weeks ago you were ahead of arsenal on points with the same games played, so I think you did bottle it a bit.
They didn't bottle it this time round, to be fair. Chelsea and Arsenal were just a peg higher.
You finished 4th last year though, you did everything right. This season you went after the Europa and got it wrong.