Have you read Oriana Fallaci's comments on muslims?

[devilish]

But that's not the reasons Afghanistan & Iraq were invaded, i.e. to do favours for the peoples of those two countries, were they?

If that's the case, there are plenty more places for them to invade, so why stop at two, going by your argument?



Are you saying the average Muslim has?



Er, I think even western think-tanks & politicians suggest that as one of the reasons.



Agree about them being more destructive - they should never have been supported & financed by the west in the first place - a frankenstein monster was created. ( don't know whether you should be so bold as to say right-wing groups never incited, attacked or killed anyone - lots of individuals have been murdered by racially motivated atacks )

1) Well you shouldnt see the reason behind it but the result of such actions. Today Afghanistan and Iraq had been freed. Instead the average Muslim critise such action, so the question comes natural, is the average Muslim in favor of such groups?

2) I havent understood you.

3) As stated you shouldnt invade a country basing on a lie yet its the result that matter and not the reason behind it.

4) You are right. That should have thought the western world a lesson and that is, never trust those who hate you and expect action rather then the usual BS. De ja vu?

 

[mathiaslg]

"Be perfectly virtuous in criticism of others, yet criticise yourself with a passion", that would solve your fear of silence,

One can, and should, do both. I think the U.S., and the West more broadly, is pretty decent in that respect. The same can't be said for many others, but that is only to be expected.

 

[spinoza]

Not disagreeing with your opinion, but didn't someone say she's a free-thinker?

She professes to be.

But in my experience there aren't any proper Italian or Spanish free thinkers... their Catholic roots are far too entrenched, and they still fall back on saying things like "Madre de dios!" when they feel strongly about something.

 

[kkcbl]

Were we, and all of our ancestors for that matter, to have to be perfectly virtuous in order to be "allowed" to criticize the faults of others, then the entire world would be deafeningly silent.

Congrats Mat!

It's taken a long time of convincing but I'm glad you've finally come around to that conclusion.

There's still hope for you afterall!

 

[Sultan]

Att Devilish;

I have been thinking about your proposals about Muslims not doing enough, firstly the hate preachers you refer to are not employed by any Islamic institutions, We as Muslims are against this freedom of speech accorded to them, see my arguments in this very thread.

Having opinions different to yours is not making excuses for terrorism, its an opinion and only that.

As with all criminals we are not aware of their intentions until after the event, do you know, are even aware that the anti terrorist squad have been working very closely in liason with the community...These things are kept quite for obvious reasons.

There have been mass murderers, peodophiles etc, within our midst on most occasions their next of kin having been oblivious to their crimes.

You would be correct in condenming if the Muslim community knowingly harboured any terrorists in our midst or helped their cause, which i see no evidence.

Please dont find us guilty on being Muslims.

 

[mathiaslg]

Congrats Mat!

It's taken a long time of convincing but I'm glad you've finally come around to that conclusion.

There's still hope for you afterall!

The point of my post was not to agree with you, but to show your logic to be nothing but b.s.

 

[kkcbl]

The point of my post was not to agree with you, but to show your logic to be nothing but b.s.

I know all of your points in answering my posts are just to disagree - I don't care, but the fact that you finally had the gumption to write

"Were we, and all of our ancestors for that matter, to have to be perfectly virtuous in order to be "allowed" to criticize the faults of others, then the entire world would be deafeningly silent." shows that you have finally accepted that statement - unless it's something you actually don't believe in but are just writing to irritate which makes you a .....

 

[devilish]

Att Devilish;

I have been thinking about your proposals about Muslims not doing enough, firstly the hate preachers you refer to are not employed by any Islamic institutions, We as Muslims are against this freedom of speech accorded to them, see my arguments in this very thread.

Having opinions different to yours is not making excuses for terrorism, its an opinion and only that.

As with all criminals we are not aware of their intentions until after the event, do you know, are even aware that the anti terrorist squad have been working very closely in liason with the community...These things are kept quite for obvious reasons.

There have been mass murderers, peodophiles etc, within our midst on most occasions their next of kin having been oblivious to their crimes.

You would be correct in condenming if the Muslim community knowingly harboured any terrorists in our midst or helped their cause, which i see no evidence.

Please dont find us guilty on being Muslims.

Let make things clear, I have critised the US in the past and Israel in the past but

a) Until the Muslim communities residing in Europe and the US call the West them rather then we

b) Unless they dont search and report those who spread hatred in the Mosques etc.

c) Unless (this is for the Muslims living in Muslim states) you permit terrorist cells like Hamas to roam free in their country, and restrict the rights to those with a difficult culture and religion then yours (can you imagine what you would say if one day Blair issue a law where you cannot have a Koran in England?)

d) Unless you start fighting terrorism rather then simply issue the usual BS

e) Unless you fight those with such evil mentality rather than accusing the west for doing this

Unless you do all this then dont condemn those who question whether you are at our side or not in this war against terrorism.

We had our World War II we fought it and we have won it. Now its the time that you fight your own war. The time is ripe to stand up and be counted.

 

[Sultan]

My friend we love UK with a passion, I remember crying when United lost as a kid, my kids throw tantrums when United lose now...I and all the friends I know would defend England with a passion, we are on the whole law abiding, sorry our colour tones or clothes may look alien, but British we are as much as the next man.

By putting the onus on Muslims to defeat terror, everybody else absolves themselves of responsibility, its a politicians way of deflecting criticism. Muslims are not in denial of our duties, but who are we meant to be combating? The security services had no idea about all that has gone on in London, so how are we as ordinary citizens to do better?

Sorry mate you are barking up the wrong tree

 

[mathiaslg]

I know all of your points in answering my posts are just to disagree - I don't care, but the fact that you finally had the gumption to write

"Were we, and all of our ancestors for that matter, to have to be perfectly virtuous in order to be "allowed" to criticize the faults of others, then the entire world would be deafeningly silent." shows that you have finally accepted that statement - unless it's something you actually don't believe in but are just writing to irritate which makes you a .....

I think I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't being serious with that statement. If that makes me a ...., then so be it.

 

[devilish]

My friend we love UK with a passion, I remember crying when United lost as a kid, my kids throw tantrums when United lose now...I and all the friends I know would defend England with a passion, we are on the whole law abiding, sorry our colour tones or clothes may look alien, but British we are as much as the next man.

By putting the onus on Muslims to defeat terror, everybody else absolves themselves of responsibility, its a politicians way of deflecting criticism. Muslims are not in denial of our duties, but who are we meant to be combating? The security services had no idea about all that has gone on in London, so how are we as ordinary citizens to do better?

Sorry mate you are barking up the wrong tree

Well Im sorry but there are things that you can do and that is by reporting all those who promote Islamic fundamentalism, promote tolerance amongst your communities and deflect critism against the West in the same way our politicians are trying to deflect critism upon you.

Islam is your religion and you have the duty to keep its reputation intact. If you think that the Europeans will accept this situation and will not try to find ways to solve this problem once and for all in the name of political correctness then think again. It will come a time when the Europeans will get sick of hearing the usual BS, they will get sick of watching their children die in the name of Islam etc etc etc. Its a fact that Radical Right groups are on the rise and with every terroristic attack, they are getting stronger and stronger. I dread the moment that these muppets end up leading Europe but if it things remain in this way it will happen for the simple reason that in Europe living in a safe world is not considered as a luxury but as a right to fight for.

 

[holyland red]

Let make things clear, I have critised the US in the past and Israel in the past but

a) Until the Muslim communities residing in Europe and the US call the West them rather then we

b) Unless they dont search and report those who spread hatred in the Mosques etc.

c) Unless (this is for the Muslims living in Muslim states) you permit terrorist cells like Hamas to roam free in their country, and restrict the rights to those with a difficult culture and religion then yours (can you imagine what you would say if one day Blair issue a law where you cannot have a Koran in England?)

d) Unless you start fighting terrorism rather then simply issue the usual BS

e) Unless you fight those with such evil mentality rather than accusing the west for doing this

Unless you do all this then dont condemn those who question whether you are at our side or not in this war against terrorism.

We had our World War II we fought it and we have won it. Now its the time that you fight your own war. The time is ripe to stand up and be counted.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
devilish
Please Like Me


Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Let me introduce you to the new Devilish
Posts: 9,661 There is a fine line to judge between a terrorist and a freedom fighter.

The world concept of a freedom fighter is a person who fights for freedom in an oppressed (possibly invaded country). In fact no one label the French, Greek or Italian resistance (they were responsible for so called terrorist’s attacks during the Second World War) as terrorists even though they targeted both military and sometime civilian (Nazi officer’s families and fellow nazi admirers civilians)

A terrorist is a person whom driven by fanatism (religious or political), racism and hatred, plans and kills other PPL The Nazi regime and the Al Qaeda are amongst those in that list.

While I believe that the Hamas regime should be stopped for global peace, we cannot label them as terrorists. They are fighting to release their lands from their oppressors and though its not fair to kill innocent people by doing so they can be labeled as terrorists ONLY if they continue the bloodshed even when their lands are released.
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The language suggest that there is no "new Devilish", so I take it as another example for the multiple-personality syndrome you suffer from.

 

[spinoza]

My friend we love UK with a passion, I remember crying when United lost as a kid, my kids throw tantrums when United lose now...

Not sure how that relates...

Stick yer Ingurland up yer arse

 

[devilish]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
devilish
Please Like Me


Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Let me introduce you to the new Devilish
Posts: 9,661 There is a fine line to judge between a terrorist and a freedom fighter.

The world concept of a freedom fighter is a person who fights for freedom in an oppressed (possibly invaded country). In fact no one label the French, Greek or Italian resistance (they were responsible for so called terrorist’s attacks during the Second World War) as terrorists even though they targeted both military and sometime civilian (Nazi officer’s families and fellow nazi admirers civilians)

A terrorist is a person whom driven by fanatism (religious or political), racism and hatred, plans and kills other PPL The Nazi regime and the Al Qaeda are amongst those in that list.

While I believe that the Hamas regime should be stopped for global peace, we cannot label them as terrorists. They are fighting to release their lands from their oppressors and though its not fair to kill innocent people by doing so they can be labeled as terrorists ONLY if they continue the bloodshed even when their lands are released.
-----------------------------------------------

The language suggest that there is no "new Devilish", so I take it as another example for the multiple-personality syndrome you suffer from.

Well you have taken two posts taken from different arguments

As stated Hamas should be stopped. They are using the wrong methods to claim what is theirs etc. But its also true that the way the Israeli had treated the Palestinians in the past years is totally different from how the Europeans had treated the Muslims. European had never invaded lands, killed innocent children and claimed lands which arent theirs. The Europeans have never sent tanks in refugee camps and killed thousands. If Europe have done so then we wouldnt expect that the Muslims wont fight back and not to claim what is theirs.

In my previous post Im not talking about my opinion about Hamas but about the world's opinion about Hamas, or quite specifically the RR opinion about this group. I am also saying what I believe the western world expects from the Muslims and what need to be done to safeguard Islam's reputation.

I would keep Israel far from this argument. Its a case of its own, a country lead by a butcher whom, if he was a Yugoslav, a German or an Iraqi would have been send to prison for crimes against Humanity in the same way of Milosevic and Saddam. Terrorism in Palestine is done on self defense (ok its by utilising wrong methods), terrorism in Europe is done out of HATRED.

 

[holyland red]

European had never invaded lands, killed innocent children and claimed lands which arent theirs.

What a fecking idiot you are.

 

[devilish]

What a fecking idiot you are.

Oh comeon Holy dont come out with the usual Medieval or colonialism stories. As stated we payed the price to that and we pulled out of those lands. Unlike Israel.

 

[kkcbl]

I think I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't being serious with that statement. If that makes me a ...., then so be it.

ok - so be it.

 

[Sultan]

Well Im sorry but there are things that you can do and that is by reporting all those who promote Islamic fundamentalism, promote tolerance amongst your communities and deflect critism against the West in the same way our politicians are trying to deflect critism upon you.

The only thing needed is the power of persuasion and help of like minded people, not condemnation of the whole community for the actions of a few, the ability to gain the confidence of the Muslim community is by convincing them that the aim is to catch terrorists, not to criminalise our community.

 

[crappycraperson]

. European had never invaded lands, killed innocent children and claimed lands which arent theirs.

 

[devilish]

The only thing needed is the power of persuasion and help of like minded people, not condemnation of the whole community for the actions of a few, the ability to gain the confidence of the Muslim community is by convincing them that the aim is to catch terrorists, not to criminalise our community.

No want to condemn the Muslim community mate. What I am saying is that the Muslim community has to do more rather then simply condemning such actions.

 

[devilish]

I think that Ive explained myself better about that point in one of my previous post.

 

[Sultan]

No want to condemn the Muslim community mate. What I am saying is that the Muslim community has to do more rather then simply condemning such actions.

That is without doubt...

 

[devilish]

That is without doubt...

And in the meantime we should use the little influence that we have (as civilians) to try to stop those who oppress the Muslims in other countries like let say Israel. By doing so we should be able to show the world that we are not against Islam but against those who use violence to justify their means.

 

[ManRyan]

She professes to be.

But in my experience there aren't any proper Italian or Spanish free thinkers... their Catholic roots are far too entrenched, and they still fall back on saying things like "Madre de dios!" when they feel strongly about something.

I think 'free thinker' is an expression from the 1500s or thereabouts, it means something like 'a person who has a deviating religious belief than the official state religion', and later on it came to have a wider meaning. But it isn't neccesarily an atheist, quite the contrary (originally).
An example of a free thinker is Giordano Bruno, Italian priest burned by the catholic church in the late 1500s, if I remember correctly.

 

[thewelshconjurer]

I think 'free thinker' is an expression from the 1500s or thereabouts, it means something like 'a person who has a deviating religious belief than the official state religion', and later on it came to have a wider meaning. But it isn't neccesarily an atheist, quite the contrary (originally).
An example of a free thinker is Giordano Bruno, Italian priest burned by the catholic church in the late 1500s, if I remember correctly.

Not exactly, the idea of free thinkers was born in the Enlightenment.

And Giordano Bruno died in 1600.

 

[ManRyan]

You're 50% right . The expression is from the 1700-1800, but the idea of a free thinker is just someone like Giordano Bruno.

 

[thewelshconjurer]

You're 50% right . The expression is from the 1700-1800, but the idea of a free thinker is just someone like Giordano Bruno.

It's called avant la lettre.

 

[ManRyan]

Well that may be so, Welshman, but I'm sitting here now with this book Iam reading right now, and I thought I'd share some thoughts with you, as I think you might be interested ( from what you write ).


It's a book written by two professors at the University of Oslo, and it's in Norwegian, so I'll try to make a translation into English.

The book is called A HISTORY OF NORWEGIAN FREETHINKERS FROM 1500 - 1850. Authors are professor cand.theol. Arne Bugge Amundsen and professor cand.philol. Henning Laugerud. As you can see it covers the aforementioned period, and there is a vol. 2 planned, covering from 1850 and forwards.

In the opening of the book they try to define the term 'free thinker', I'll translate directly from that :



(...)...There was no such word as 'freethinker' in the 1500s and 1600s, and the definition of 'atheism' was very different' from todays. Only in the early 1770s these concepts began to vibrate with the meanings with which we know them by today.(...).....................
...Today freethinking are often/generally perceived as synonomously with atheism, and a freethinker is perceived as an atheist or an agnostic. The original meaning however, differs from this. Freethinker ( 'Fritenker' in Norwegian ) derives from english free-thinker, and was used as a notion of a person who in relation to 'the eternal questions' related freely towards religion, dogmas and other authorities. To start with it didn't have to imply any form of atheism, only that one were thinking freely about one's own faith (in god). In other words, the original conception of freethinker didn't relate to whether or not one believed, but what one believed and how one believed.
The word 'free-thinker' was first used by the english deists in the 1700s, and in time the word came into general use/practice among a range of philosophers also in Germany and France. When the word freethinker in modern laguage has become synonymous with 'atheist' , then that signifies a meaning which is some distance from the words original meaning. (....)

The definition ( their definition) of atheism is also interesting, but I had more than enough work with this little piece here, so that can rest to another time.



Hopefully I was truthful to the book, and that you enjoyed it.

 

[ManRyan]

Oops, a typo, it should be 'only in the early 1700s...'
Hope that's the only one.