I don't understand why Kagawa can't just be a useful squad member. It's not like we paid huge money for him, and he's hardly entitled to be a pencilled in starter at a club the size of United (and I think he'd find a similar situation if he returned to Dortmund.) As a backup to Mata, he strikes me as a pretty handy option.
Shinji Kagawa
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So far he didn't offer enough to be even squad player. That's really shame, he's much better than what we saw. He looks like someone who would fit into vG system, let's hope he gets himself straight and shows he's calibre for United.
So far he didn't offer enough to be even squad player. That's really shame, he's much better than what we saw. He looks like someone who would fit into vG system, let's hope he gets himself straight and shows he's calibre for United.
Why it has to be a solo goal? Partners created many opportunities for him to score. You asked what can Kagawa do, presumably to look good and influence the result, if teammates missing his chances. I replied he could at least score the ones that were created for him.
Well my point was close to it. I don't know what you think number 10 should do on the field, for me that is a person who must, not should or can, but must contribute goals, via assists or scoring. Or create shooting chances as a sort of the lesser alternative to assists. That's their primary role and job on the field. Now other players like CMs, DMs can make lots of short passes, control the game flow, win the ball back, create overloads in certain areas, open up space for teammates to run into etc. The number 10 is the cutting edge of the team so to speak. A number 10 that is not creating chances and scoring goals is useless in my opinion. Just look at James Rodriguez from Colombia, he does not run around the field passing it sideways, no he leads the charge as any number 10 should.
You really think any player is happy just to be a squad member and sit mainly on the bench as a backup?
Highly doubt Shinji would want that.
Who cares what he wants? He's under contract and should just get on with it.
Many opportunities for him? I'd rather you quantify this rather than say many.
I think it depends on your preference for a number 10. A number 10 doesn't have to score goals but it helps. There are different types of number 10s so you take your pick. You're describing a particular type of number 10 from what I've observed but there are other types. Not every system depends on the number 10 to be the focal point of the attack
Clearly i can't remember all of them. One thing for sure, there have been enough. Around the same number he created for others. I remember him missing chances in Swans game, in Norwich game, against Real Sociedad at home he missed a whole lot of them. Even Young scored at least some goals.
Just name me number 10 who do not score and assist/create chances.
Or assists and creates(that is any pass that led to a shot, so cross to Smalling would count as one) at Kagawa's level. He is created less than a chance per game.
Iniesta. That said, you're correct that Kagawa has been disappointing as far as goals and assists (such a crap statistic btw) are concerned, based on his very impressive record in the German league.
I used to think that aswell, but now I´m not too sure anymore. I personally think he would have had the opportunity to transfer to a better suited team to play a larger role, but he insists on trying his luck at the Old Trafford. Maybe he believes to have a real shot in Van Gaal´s system or maybe (and this would be a shame) it is enough to play in the EPL at the most popular club in Japan in any role. Never had that impression of him when he was at Dortmund, but I also overrated his mental strength to make an impact at an European elite club without the obvious adoration of his coach.
Who scored and assisted 29 goals in La liga over the last two years. That Iniesta?
If anything I believe his mental strength has shone through at United. At Dortmund he was a very limited player, occupying the 1 role in the team which was behind the striker. At United, he's altered his game so much that managers feel comfortable playing him in CM next to immobile players.
Our team lacks cohesion and more often than not we rely on individual brilliance from either RVP or Rooney to pull us through games. We signed Mata and it didn't help, FERGIE signed Kagawa and it didn't help.
What's happened to the Kagawa we all enviously watched at Dortmund, apart from the obvious reasons that United have been a bit crap lately. I really do hope he can rediscover that form under the new manager.
You do see the irony in this though right? You claim they are around the same number he created for others but you don't remember them all so they may actually not be close to being around the same number.
Ozil's goal record is nothing to shout about either. I'm not sure what point youre trying to make now. All I'm saying is in different systems, the number 10 player may have a different role or they may not be a number 10. In those roles there may or may not be an increased emphasis on direct contribution (goals/assists). If a number 10 helps setup his teammates to create chances more than he does create chances himself, what difference does it really make?
There's a term called pre-assist which gets overlooked. It's self-explanatory. The pass before the actual assist. If player in the number 10 role performs a pre-assist which allows the player who then delivers the assist to lay it on a plate for the scorer, do we regard this as less significant because it's not an assist? Because sometimes when it comes to chance creation, there's some ambiguity with how chance creation stat is attributed. Hence why you will see a disparity between different stats collectors on how many chances a player has created.
A number 10 can be flexible. he doesn have to be the one who plays the final pass. He can also play a part in initiating the move which leads to the chance being created. He may not get credit for creating the chance but in my mind it doesn't make his contribution to the goal or created chance any less just because it's not part of his stats column. does it for you? If so why? Because it doesnt fit in your model of what a number 10 should do?
Yeah, you almost make that sound impressive. In the Spanish league last season, he had 3 goals and 9 assists. The year before that, he had 3 goals and 16 assists, which was an anomalous year for him because every other season he's been well below that.
iniesta had 3 goals this past season and the season before that. you see how how you can construct stats in a way to suit whatever you want to say?
In fact, Iniesta has never gone above 10 goals for barca in la liga. However you can also debate his role in those seasons as a number 8 instead of a number 10 but that's a different discussion.
You need to read better.
"...my point was close to it. I don't know what you think number 10 should do on the field, for me that is a person who must, not should or can, but must contribute goals, via assists or scoring..."
Iniesta shouldn't be mentioned when people discuss the No.10 role. Barca doesn't play with a No.10, instead they use two players as No.8 players.
That's because he was used in a more deeper role, Messi used as a number 10 in Barca. In many matches, in most of the matches this year Inista played as central midfielder. Last year he was used in an advanced role, that's how he got these 16 assists.
I see. well you changed it from scoring goals and assisting to an "XOR" relationship.
still, i'm surprised you dont see pre-assists as important then
actually iniesta would still play some games in a wider role. they tried to fit cesc into the more advanced role but it only really clicked in the first half of the season. sometimes neymar played in the 10 role as messi struggled with injuries. iniesta is one of those players who on good form can contribute assists even if his starting position is in a wider role or even as a number 8
I did not change a thing. If you look back to the Mata Rooney argument you won't find goals mentioned there at all. And assists also for that matter. I was talking about chances created. I think you misunderstood the whole thing really.
Okay. How many chances he created for others exactly? Do you remember all of them? You named only two.
You need to re-read my post. I mention assists and chances created for a reason. Ozil's record in that respect is top notch.
And once again you need to simply read what i have written. I a bit tired of constantly correcting your very much strange interpretation of my words.
Just tell me, exactly how did you understand the following phrase:
"I don't know what you think number 10 should do on the field, for me that is a person who..."
I reckon it is pretty evident that i explained how i see the number 10 role. Can there be other formations that don't use the number 10 role to which i was referring? Yep. Could there be other understanding of this role or other definition for it? Sure why not. As long as people explain what exactly do they mean. Maybe some will say Pirlo is a deep lying number 10. Could be.
No I think we misunderstood each other. Because you somehow implied I said a 10 doesn't score goals when you said this "Just name me number 10 who do not score and assist/create chances."
My point was they don't have to score goals in the way you meant it (main contributions). Besides, by your definition, if a number 10 doesn score goals but provides a decent number assists or at least creates chances, it's still okay.
I can agree for United, Kagawa hasn't created enough chances on a regular basis. At the same time, I think his understanding of spaces is something which won't be quantified by goals/assists/chances created which is my point. Does that mean we should give him a free pass? no.
You can choose to look at players from a statistical viewpoint which is fine but I don't think that captures the full picture of how a player contributes since there are aspects of a player's game which is more difficult to quantify using stats. Plus, clubs use their own statistical models which won't ever be available in the public in the near future.
That's something I was asking you. Not myself. Yes but you said "and" with respect to goals and assisting/creating chances in that post not "or" which was used in an exclusive sense otherwise like I said before, there would be nothing more to be said.
Yes it is evident. I'm just questioning whether it's fair to put all number 10s into this box. That's all. Good one on Pirlo lol
In addtion @Lane, you also seem to draw a line in terms of how well they contribute but you didn't define it explicitly. You say a number 10 must contribute either via scoring or assisting/chance creation but at some point do you draw the line at a certain target? Because under your defintion, Nani could be defined as a 10 despite the fact he plays in wider positions. Just curious where you draw the line in terms of how well does a number 10 need to contribute to be considered top rate AM. Because players like mata, Rooney and ozil fulfill that in different ways.
You mean the last two dead rubber games vs. Hull and Southampton? Yeah, I have seen those and I was not impressed. He could have played CM at Dortmund as well. It would have impacted his performance level there aswell. Similarity he could very well have played on the flanks and while he would have not been as good as in the central offensive midfield, he would still be better there than at United because of the difference of tactical setups.
The reason why Kagawa only played as CAM with us is that it was and still is his strongest position and the only player who could play on a similar level at his time there was the more versatile Mario Götze, who could influence the game on the same level from every position in the offensive midfield. So it was the obvious choice to play Kagawa in the center and have Götze + one of the other offensive midfielder (Kuba/Großkreutz/Perisic) on the flanks. It was the formation which got the most out of every player.
The reason why I question Kagawa´s mental strength is that while I never expected him to reach his personal peak level at United because of the stark differences in systems I expected him to do better outside his natural role. In most of his games he seemed without any confidence, his former directness and fluidity in his actions, which made him so good for Dortmund was basically completely gone. His end product suffered greatly under that and Kagawa is actually a player who is defined by that. Even at Dortmund he played his role not as a play maker or creator but rather as a player for the final third, someone who either scored goals himself or delivered the final pass.
In the end Kagawa turned out to be the player he always was: a brilliant role player in the right system, but rather harmless outside that role. One of the several players who appeared better in Klopp´s system than he actually is.
I really like Kagawa, but I'm starting to think this is true. Seems to be the case with a lot of Dortmund players (Sahin comes to mind).
he shouldn't be sold. if anyone can benefit from Van Gaal it's this guy.
I stumbled upon a video from Kagawa's Cerezo Osaka days. The level of the J-League is not much better than the average European league, but it's insane to see how good he was at age 17-21. Hopefully Van Gaal can pull some of this playfulness out of Kagawa again. Even against tougher defenses, Kagawa's technical abilities on the counter ought to prove deadly. It doesn't really matter where you play him in such playstyles. That's why I think that he'll flourish under Van Gaal.
If he really care about his career, he should just leave. Mata and Rooney will keep overshadow him. And we still have Adnan and Tom Lawrence.
Looking at that video, is it any wonder he was a misfit under Moyes? Most of his goals came from a central position with willing runners pushing forward together with him, playing intricate football. He'd be one of the top players in the league if he played for Arsenal to be honest.
The type of player, that if he stays or leaves, does nothing to me.
The main thing from that video that stands out for me, is his finishing and dribbling ability. His shooting looks powerful and accurate on both feet there, scoring from all sorts of angles. he almost seem's to scuff every shot he takes these days, which is just odd.
If he can get back to that sort of ability it would be great, he seems a lot more direct in that video.
If he can get back to that sort of ability it would be great, he seems a lot more direct in that video.
Digging up a video from when Kagawa was playing in Japan four years ago to show his quality.
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I would add Chelsea to the list as well with the way their attacking players combine together with pace and directness.
@Mad Winger
I think it has already been pretty obvious that Kagawa hasn't played like a creator throughout his career until he came to Man. Utd. Having said that, I strongly commend Sir Alex's scouts for somehow discovering that Kagawa can become a good creative player as he is a good crosser and can split up defences with good through passes. However, Kagawa doesn't play like that and plays more like a withdrawn/second striker than a creative attacking midfielder. He's always on the move and willing to get into the box through either dribbling at pace or playing quick combinations with teammates. He doesn't look like someone who'll seek the ball and "play-a-make" as the cool kids say
. He's more of a direct player who wants to get into goalscoring positions and score goals or lay it off to an open man in the box.I just hope that van Gaal can bring that directness and confidence out of Kagawa. Either that or transform his style completely and make him more of a playmaker than a goalscorer (almost impossible at this point IMO given how long Kagawa's played as a goalscorer).
What if he surpasses them all? If he can reach his Dortmund form, then he's easily on par with Mata and Rooney. If he can improve even further, then he'll surpass them both. That's hardly a wild stretch either, considering Van Gaal's past.
Still a fair chance it won't happen.
He won't surpass them, he has never been as good as them and never will be.
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