How much Dortmund football have you seen? Their football is much quicker than ours, even under Fergie.
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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That's fair enough. That particular part is purely based on my gut-feeling
A fair bit, it wasn't so much the speed comment I was getting at, more that we play a "possession based system", he insinuated that was the difference between us, other than the speed at which we play, which is horribly wrong.
Did you not watch us last season or the season before??? We knock the ball around the middle of the park like its Christmas and the only time we play with any real tempo is when we are chasing a game. Dortmund play 10x quicker than us
I think he was thinking about our static zombie passing(or whatever the Caftards call it). We are very possession-based against teams with deep-lying defenses. We completely lack penetration, creativity and off-the-ball movement.
I don't even think kagawa has been poor for us since joining. He's not been as good as he was for Dortmund and that's where the disappointment lies for me, on actual fact I'd say he's been pretty decent overall and occasionally very good.
Okay, perhaps I jumped the gun a bit, just seems strange hearing us being described a possession based team, as If i said who is the main midfielder we use to control possession? I'd argue none of our CM's are in that ilk, and with the possession game comes the pressing, which I've seen bugger all of late, but anyway I suppose it's irrelevant, as surely LVG will implement the system he wants regardless?
Definitely! Van Gaal has a very strong personality and he will implement his philosophy regardless. He wants to attack with pace and directness, preferably with technical players. In terms of playstyle, I don't think his philosophies are too far away from Klopp's Dortmund. I guess the latter is a little bit more adventurous/daring, while Van Gaal is more ruthless.
The problem for Kagawa is that a lot of supporters, overhyped him (like they oftenly do) and when they realised that he wasn't a world class, they just considered that he was a flop.
And now they want to get rid of him for "financial" reasons which is weird since he only costed 15m.
That's not right though, we're yet to see how the new United will play. Dortmund's play is based on very much running and a fast transition, it's not bound on a certain kind of players, but there's an advantage for fast players of course, I don't expect us to emulate that, that's why I wrote similar, the main thing is that there's more movement in attacking, which I fully expect under Van Gaal, I think we all do.
There's so much truth in those two sentences, it almost hurts
I'd also add that there are a lot of critics who never really got to see Kagawa for Dortmund, so they never boarded the hype train. Dortmund didn't become "mainstream" before they won the group of death in the CL. By that time, Kagawa was already a United player. Had he remained in Dortmund, then the muppets in here would cream themselves over his potential signature as we speak
To be fair he did break his foot AFTER that video was made, perhaps this has impacted him slightly?. Just like Rooney seemed to suffer after his metatarsal break.
That's football hipsterish crap. Dortmund have been a big draw for football fans since long before we signed Kagawa. I know your association with United/this place only began when we signed Kagawa but you should do some digging through old threads if you really think they weren't on our radar until Kagawa signed.There's so much truth in those two sentences, it almost hurts
I'd also add that there are a lot of critics who never really got to see Kagawa for Dortmund, so they never boarded the hype train. Dortmund didn't become "mainstream" before they won the group of death in the CL. By that time, Kagawa was already a United player. Had he remained in Dortmund, then the muppets in here would cream themselves over his potential signature as we speak
You can kick things off by looking at the many threads suggesting we should sign Nuri Sahin
www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.135609/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.133143/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.131675/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.90012/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.98898/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.115411/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/nuri-sahin.121667/
Earliest thread out that little lot was started in 2005.
Ah, Poster of The Year 2008 is back
Well, I've been reading this forum daily since 2010, and I didn't sense that Dortmund became mainstream before late 2012. Sure, people wanted Sahin(and looking at our CM, there's no wonder why), but that doesn't mean that people in here wanted 4-5 Dortmund players like they seemlingy did between late 2012 and pretty much up until now.
I would suggest a bigger problem is he's looked nothing like the player we thought we were getting, who had been so good for Dortmund. In the past couple of seasons he hasn't been much better than Cleverley, the Caf's whipping boy. Which is criminal considering the talent he so obviously has. This season's the acid test. If he can't do it playing under LVG, his third manager at United, I'd say it's safe to say it won't happen.
So basically you're talking bollox when you try to imply that the majority of people on here only became aware of Kagawa/Dortmund after he signed for United. Good stuff.Ah, Poster of The Year 2008 is back
Well, I've been reading this forum daily since 2010, and I didn't sense that Dortmund became mainstream before late 2012. Sure, people wanted Sahin(and looking at our CM, there's no wonder why), but that doesn't mean that people in here wanted 4-5 Dortmund players like they seemlingy did between late 2012 and pretty much up until now.
You talking bollox constitutes at least 50% of this thread, so I guess it was to be expected...
That's because most don't know what kind of player he is, that's a second stricker and a lot of people seems to think that he is a playmaker or a 10.
Kagawa without being bad he failed because he didn't scored, his confidence has totally disappeared after his first injury. But he turned good in the last months of his first season.
And for last season no one has been good, Kagawa can't be good if he doesn't have a lot of balls around the box, he can't be good if the team don't press high and he can't be good in a team of zombies.
That doesn't mean that we can't criticized him, because he needs to score, that's what he is supposed to do.
And for that a real team is needed and not the sum of individualities we witnessed the last few years.
You're absolving him a lot of blame though, I feel that his return was not just entirely down to how bad the team was last season. I genuinely think he really isn't as good as people say he is. And if he is supposed to be a second striker, his record for us is poor even in that position. Mata has done more in a few months than Kagawa has in two seasons, its just that kagawa drifts away in most of the games and more often than not does not provide that killer through ball he is meant to be giving us.
I've given Young a lot of hate, I think he has some useful skills but in a team like Moyes or even Ferguson during his last couple years, he was expected to do a lot more than his skill set allows and he messed up.
Louis van Gaal will give players instructions, Young will play when Louis is sure he won't do these stupid things like giving the ball away so I'm actually quite excited for Young, Cleverley and Kagawa.
I have this feeling these players lack that individual brilliance but they will actually be very effective when expected to perform in a strict system with exact instructions.
This was Dennis Bergkamp's criticism of Louis van Gaal:
Young and Kagawa have shown they can produce top performances consistently throughout a season, Cleverley will likely show this also therefore I do expect these players to do well.
So many players though, even if these guys show the level of required competence, they could still be given the axe.
I'd pretty much agree with this. People saw what he did at Dortmund and for some reason are willing to give him so much leeway, blame the other players, blame the system etc. Those people are loathe to blame Shinji, who in fairness to him, has come out on a couple of occasions and said that he's disappointed in himself. Mata was able to do stuff, even in Moyes dismal system. Likewise Rooney, Van Persie etc. It's hilarious, I look at all the stuff Rooney has given us over the years, in various systems, and yet some people will criticise him, more than Shinji. Gas. He needs to man up, in my opinion, and start shining, rather than shying away and disappearing in games.
At the age of 23 is when he reach his potential at Dortmund, at the age of 25 is where he past it. So I don't think @Mitchell Nicholas missed the point. Attacking midfield shouldn't past his peak at 25 but in Kagawa scenario it makes sense because Rooney and Mata are overshadow him right now, he won't improved if he doesn't get enough game. The only way is leave the club for more game. And even if Kagawa can reach his Dortmund form again, Mata still has a chance to get even better, in other word Mata can still overshadow him unless if Kagawa can improve significantly. But then if we go back again how can a player improved significantly if he doesn't get enough chance to play.
You might need to watch Kagawa a bit more. Mata first touch and control are way more consistent. While Kagawa is like the current Rooney. Their first touch and ball control are inconsistent. You often see Kagawa first touch is great but then the next 5 or 10 minutes or his next touch become bad, and then turn into great again.
The better thing can be said to Park, Park was a big game winner in Korea, Holland and England. Oh well, we might can included Italy as well if you don't mind since he always have superb performance against AC Milan.
Don't compare him to Mata, Mata is a World Class #10, Mata is miles ahead of someone like Kagawa, and i don't absolve him, his problem is mental, if didn't acted stupidly infront of the goal his stats would have been decent, he creates the chances for himself but can't convert them which is his own fault.
But in the same time our team have been unable to create a great number of occasions, a team like Dortmund create a lot of occasion which help the strickers because there is always an other chance with us it's different our players can't repay their mistakes.
In my mind Kagawa his nothing more than a backup option for Mata.
Bingo.
He needs to be close to the main striker. He isn't great at holding the ball while waiting for the pass (like Silva or Mata or even Cazorla)
It needs to be quick, short and sharp with him.
People seem(ed) to think he's an attacking midfielder, when really he's more of a second striker.
I don't really see a starting role for him:
Mata is better at number 10, I prefer Januzaj on the wing, and (hopefully) the plan is to add pace on the other side. And I also prefer Rooney to him when it comes to being anywhere near the front man.
He's not bad at any of those roles though, so he's still a good option for the squad.
A bit of Mata/Kagawa ball skills
I can and will compare them, just because one is world class and the other isn't. They are both number 10s, only one can actually win you a game or at least try, the other is a passenger. It shouldn't matter about the team he is in, Japan play differently to Dortmund and up until this world cup he was fine for them in that left sided role we also employ him in. Its simply the case he is not good enough for us or the premier league, he was way overrated, and is not criticized enough. Why else would he come out and say he was disappointed in his performances, rather than blame our play?
He has never changed a game for us when he comes off the bench, nor does he bother to cut defences apart like he was supposed to, most of the time I expected him to make a through ball he passes it sideways. If that were cleverley he'd be hung drawn and quartered on here.
Plenty of players pass the ball sideways frequently, Carrick does it more than anyone else but the difference between those guys and Cleverley is that they asses the options before they receive the ball and use it as a path of least resistance whereas Clevereley does it without bothering to look up the field and reading the play and then runs away to hide from the ball instead of being an option for a return pass.
The criticism of Kagawa is hardly justified mainly because he's never been given any consistent game time to establish his bearings but he's still been an integral part in some of our big wins recently. I thought he was class in the game against Leverkeusen. The only disappointment is the lack of goals and now it looks like his time passed him before it even arrived with the arrival of Mata and Januzaz primed to take that spot in the future.
The criticism of Kagawa is hardly justified mainly because he's never been given any consistent game time to establish his bearings but he's still been an integral part in some of our big wins recently. I thought he was class in the game against Leverkeusen. The only disappointment is the lack of goals and now it looks like his time passed him before it even arrived with the arrival of Mata and Januzaz primed to take that spot in the future.
The lack of middle ground in this thread is hilarious. Wank posts on both sides of the argument. Utter, utter wank, infact.
Carrick has in actual fact played more forward passes than anyone in the PL in the last 2 years.
I'm in the middle, i don't care about Kagawa, but when i see people expecting things that he has never done and criticising him for it, i find it weird.
I wouldn't be surprised if his passing volume in general is highest in the PL. There's very few midfielders left in the league that distribute like him.
I'm the same. His fans make him out to be an absolute genius who the team should be built around.
His detractors make out like he's never done anything at all good on a football pitch in United's colours, and that he's the worst footballer in our squad.
In my opinion, the truth of the matter is that he has been a pretty average player, who is ok to have on the bench but doesn't exactly scare opposition or merit a regular spot at present.
No, Mr. Poster Of The Year 2008, you completely misunderstand(yet again).
I implied that Dortmund didn't become mainstream before they won the group of death in late 2012. A lot of people knew about Dortmund and respected them, but they weren't considered a world class team before that. It wasn't until that moment that half their starting XI suddenly was "on the market".
ironically, this clip symbolises exactly how i feel about kagawa and mata, but probably not in the way you'd think.
Let me guess his loyal fans (Christ...) are hoping Brother Louie waves his magic wand (no, not that one) and turns the flop into a partial flop?
I really hope that van Gaal has discovered a way to effectively play Kagawa, Mata, Rooney and RVP together. That front four done right would be
Stop toying with us, and explain yourself.
Love that gif.Mad Winger, I hope you know most of those clips are from his time in the Japanese 2nd division. He didn't really play much in the J League 1 so you can't really argue how strong his competition were in comparison to players in Norway, Belgium, etc... He and Inui (Frankfurt player now) carried Cerezo Osaka into getting promotion to the first division. From a Japanese standpoint it was impressive because he flat out dominated at such a young age and because of how good he was compared to the rest of the Japanese players, as soon as he made the jump up to the first division he continued his form and still looked like the best player for the 12 or so games he played in the first division.
You could still argue that Kagawa's talent at that age was great because he made the jump from the 2nd Japanese division to the Bundesliga really quickly and still was great. Like Januzaj he showed that no matter the jump in skill level from the opposition he would rise above it.
I personally think Kagawa may have lost some pace when he picked up the leg injury in 2011 or 2012. Even if he were to go back to the J League I don't think he could do what he did a couple of years ago.
You could still argue that Kagawa's talent at that age was great because he made the jump from the 2nd Japanese division to the Bundesliga really quickly and still was great. Like Januzaj he showed that no matter the jump in skill level from the opposition he would rise above it.
I personally think Kagawa may have lost some pace when he picked up the leg injury in 2011 or 2012. Even if he were to go back to the J League I don't think he could do what he did a couple of years ago.
Interesting quote from Van Gaal about squad having 4 10's and thus lacking balance -
Kagawa be the odd man out then ?
Mata is our best 10. Rooney can also play as one of the top 2 and don't see him leaving right now. And then there is Januzaj who is basically a Young upcoming star and can hopefully play as a support striker as well.
Was interesting he played deeper than Herrera today.
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Kagawa be the odd man out then ?
Mata is our best 10. Rooney can also play as one of the top 2 and don't see him leaving right now. And then there is Januzaj who is basically a Young upcoming star and can hopefully play as a support striker as well.
Was interesting he played deeper than Herrera today.
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