I have been the biggest critic of him, but I will not criticize him for the signings he has made. The squad we have now is decent enough to get out of CL group stages & challenge for the title. It has just been mismanaged.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
This is where his negative approach to so many games this season is going to bite him in the arse.
If 2-3 of those winnable draws had been 3 points rather than 1, we'd be heading towards a title win.
In all honesty I think LVG has done a decent job. We are not turning teams over and scoring goals but look at our forward line it's very poor. Depay is struggling as is Rooney (not to mention the fact he's injured as well) and that has a massive effect on the side as I think they were seen as the two players Wed be relying on for goals this year. Obviously it's a mistake from LVG to not strengthen the side enough but we have had a big reshuffle and mostly for the better.
Martial has come in and been a revelation, scoring a free great goals and playing very well indeed which has been brilliant but it's clear we need more than just a 20 year old lad going forward. We also have Lingard who has appeared on the scene recently and has shown encouraging signs but clearly lacks the top class decision making that you need to succeed as a forward in a champions league side. Mata started the season well but has struggled for the past month or two which has also been not ideal for the side.
Elsewhere we've had crippling injuries to Luke Shaw who was looking fantastic at the start of the year. In general I think our defence and midfield has been solid and played well but the forward line needs alot of improvement and thats going to cost us money. People are crucifying LVG but you need to look at what he has at his disposal at the moment, OK he's made errors but for the most part he's given us consistency in the league without being anything special. Let's better our league position from last year and have a title push then sort the forwards in the summer and I think.
Martial has come in and been a revelation, scoring a free great goals and playing very well indeed which has been brilliant but it's clear we need more than just a 20 year old lad going forward. We also have Lingard who has appeared on the scene recently and has shown encouraging signs but clearly lacks the top class decision making that you need to succeed as a forward in a champions league side. Mata started the season well but has struggled for the past month or two which has also been not ideal for the side.
Elsewhere we've had crippling injuries to Luke Shaw who was looking fantastic at the start of the year. In general I think our defence and midfield has been solid and played well but the forward line needs alot of improvement and thats going to cost us money. People are crucifying LVG but you need to look at what he has at his disposal at the moment, OK he's made errors but for the most part he's given us consistency in the league without being anything special. Let's better our league position from last year and have a title push then sort the forwards in the summer and I think.
I too think he's done a decent job. I don't think we are as bad as the caf would have you believe. I think we have been unlucky with injuries and I think we will invest in January. I suspect/hope the club telling him he must compete for the title this season will force him to be more attack minded in games.
There's still quite a few that could easily be gotten rid of. Rojo isn't good enough. Huge question marks remain over Darmian and Depay also. We have to replace Rooney, Carrick and Schweinsteiger. Fellaini could easily go also. Our midfield is terribly unbalanced and we have no real wide options. There is still a huge amount of work to be done to the squad and a lot of players required.
The averageness of the squad is quite frightening although I think Darmian and Depay are too young to start saying there's "huge question marks" They have massive potential.
Another poll about the manager with 7 options when it's a straight question, keep or sack? 'Sack him at the end of the season' and 'Let him see out his contract' both mean you don't want him so why pi$$ about?!
The only thing I would say is the style of football we play has never really bothered me that much. I don't understand the mentality of a fan who would rather lose games 4-3 than win 1-0, and there are genuinely fans who see things this way.
However the whole atmosphere and feeling around the club, players and fans just seems so low at present and I think it is purely down to how stubborn the manager is.
We are struggling for goals yet LvG has allowed 2 of our most natural goalscorers of the last 20 years to leave in van Persie and Hernandez.
The substitution of Mata for Powell the other night was the latest in a string of unusual team/ sub choices.
Lingard is a decent young player but nowhere near good enough to justify 11 appearances this season.
I guess what I'm saying is if LvG wants to play what we might call a 'negative' gameplan then at least pick your best XI and give yourself the best chance of scoring a goal when we do attack.
The only thing I would say is the style of football we play has never really bothered me that much. I don't understand the mentality of a fan who would rather lose games 4-3 than win 1-0, and there are genuinely fans who see things this way.
However the whole atmosphere and feeling around the club, players and fans just seems so low at present and I think it is purely down to how stubborn the manager is.
We are struggling for goals yet LvG has allowed 2 of our most natural goalscorers of the last 20 years to leave in van Persie and Hernandez.
The substitution of Mata for Powell the other night was the latest in a string of unusual team/ sub choices.
Lingard is a decent young player but nowhere near good enough to justify 11 appearances this season.
I guess what I'm saying is if LvG wants to play what we might call a 'negative' gameplan then at least pick your best XI and give yourself the best chance of scoring a goal when we do attack.
I think the most frustrating thing is his stubbornness to make the players play to his ideals rather than to adapt to what their strengths or rather in our case what their limitations are.
A heavily possession based system can work where in the final third you have players with that explosiveness such that they can make a chance on their own or that killer instinct that they will take the few chances they get.
For us we don't have those players. Depay/Lingard one day might get to a level where they can make something out of nothing on a regular basis and can dribble past players with ease but they're not there yet. Martial one day might be someone who can finish as reliably as RVN but again he's not there yet.
So given we've not bought the players who can play off half chances and small openings surely you need to adapt your style to acknowledge this. It doesn't mean you have to throw it all away but just relax certain aspects of it.
The foundations he's put in are definitely good things and if we were leading in more games that ability to keep the ball would help us see out games well with minimal energy used but to play as slowly as we do whilst not ahead is just an odd choice imo.
Depay/Lingard don't take on players that well yet but they both have the pace to get in behind so lets get them running in behind, same with Martial. To do that we need someone like Mata/Herrera in the middle who can play that pass and a quicker build up play. It suits the attackers and it suits Herrera/Mata.
In the middle I find it odd that he's ok to have BFS/Fellaini run out of position etc, leaving gaps but then seems to punish Herrera who I'd say balances better than either of them.
I find it odd as well that given we have only one decent/reliable crosser at the club in Blind who plays primarily as a cb that we still look to work the ball wide and cross it in a fair amount. Stretching the game is always good but maybe we could use it better given the crossing is usually average at best.
Overall it just feels that he's being far too stubborn in his approach and ultimately for me when I look at the way we set up the only player I think it plays to the strengths of is Blind in that he gets space to pick a pass and if we could cross hypothetically Fellaini/Rooney although they themselves have plenty of issues.
Ultimately you can't say we're not in the title race but I think the stats have shown that we've effectively got the same points and so in reality is it a case that other teams are doing fairly average/poor this year. Certainly I feel that we've missed a lot of opportunities and whilst it's fine to say we're in the race at the moment I'd say we could very easily come to rue missing the opportunities we've had to pull away so far as I don't think anyone's going to run away with the league and so slipping up through issues I'd say of our own making is quite annoying. Obviously no one can say that if we'd done X we'd definitely have won x game, but I think we all know that we're not making the most of what we've got.
A heavily possession based system can work where in the final third you have players with that explosiveness such that they can make a chance on their own or that killer instinct that they will take the few chances they get.
For us we don't have those players. Depay/Lingard one day might get to a level where they can make something out of nothing on a regular basis and can dribble past players with ease but they're not there yet. Martial one day might be someone who can finish as reliably as RVN but again he's not there yet.
So given we've not bought the players who can play off half chances and small openings surely you need to adapt your style to acknowledge this. It doesn't mean you have to throw it all away but just relax certain aspects of it.
The foundations he's put in are definitely good things and if we were leading in more games that ability to keep the ball would help us see out games well with minimal energy used but to play as slowly as we do whilst not ahead is just an odd choice imo.
Depay/Lingard don't take on players that well yet but they both have the pace to get in behind so lets get them running in behind, same with Martial. To do that we need someone like Mata/Herrera in the middle who can play that pass and a quicker build up play. It suits the attackers and it suits Herrera/Mata.
In the middle I find it odd that he's ok to have BFS/Fellaini run out of position etc, leaving gaps but then seems to punish Herrera who I'd say balances better than either of them.
I find it odd as well that given we have only one decent/reliable crosser at the club in Blind who plays primarily as a cb that we still look to work the ball wide and cross it in a fair amount. Stretching the game is always good but maybe we could use it better given the crossing is usually average at best.
Overall it just feels that he's being far too stubborn in his approach and ultimately for me when I look at the way we set up the only player I think it plays to the strengths of is Blind in that he gets space to pick a pass and if we could cross hypothetically Fellaini/Rooney although they themselves have plenty of issues.
Ultimately you can't say we're not in the title race but I think the stats have shown that we've effectively got the same points and so in reality is it a case that other teams are doing fairly average/poor this year. Certainly I feel that we've missed a lot of opportunities and whilst it's fine to say we're in the race at the moment I'd say we could very easily come to rue missing the opportunities we've had to pull away so far as I don't think anyone's going to run away with the league and so slipping up through issues I'd say of our own making is quite annoying. Obviously no one can say that if we'd done X we'd definitely have won x game, but I think we all know that we're not making the most of what we've got.
I understand the squad needs addition. I was addressing the post saying, "Squad needs to be ripped apart". I dont think so.
Yes, Rooney and carrick need phased out or rather just out. As for the other players I would want out it ll probably be Valencia, Young and Fellaini, none of which were LVG's signings.
The only LVG signing I would probably want out in the next two transfer windows would be Rojo. The rest all of his signings can do a good job for us.
Rightly so. Mata looked like one of the only players who was creating chances and obviously he set up the first goal for Martial. Getting brought off for a young player who has been on loan for the last season or two and hasn't played for the club in ages would piss off any player. Bizarre substitution.
I think we've made good signings too. Huge potential there if managed correctly but we are woefully short of top class players. A picture in The Times this morning of Berbatov, Ronnie, Rooney, Ferdinand and Tevez all celebrating a goal really hit home how far our stock has fallen in just 5 or 6 years. Probably only DDG fits the bill and he could well be off to RM next season particularly if we don't pick up.
Darmian isn't that young. He's 26. I can't say I've watched a lot of them at their previous clubs but they haven't shown it for Utd yet so there is definitely a big question mark over whether they're good enough.
He's left the squad thy thin it might as well be ripped apart. Schweinsteiger looks older than Carrick. That one is on Van Gaal. Depay and Darmian as I've said haven't shown it yet. Valencia would rightly be ahead of Darmian if fit so getting rid of him wouldn't make sense at all.
Squad is thin, we need it ripped apart?. Whats the logic behind that. A thin squad needs additions, not more butchering!!!!!
The players you have mentioned have played here for less than half a season and you want them thrown out..
Many on here, including me, wanted Fellaini out after Moyes, but he was incredible last year cause of better management. In the same way, if the players are managed better, you can get the best out of them, which is not being done currently.
Yep, he shouldn't have been getting taken off at all, but the nature of the sub made it even more bizarre.
He said the squad improved since last year,
Now with other 1 billion he can win the league.
Now with other 1 billion he can win the league.
It's so easy to counter our present tactics, teams just need to sit deep and play on the counter.
All the noise the media and the fans are creating about us not being an attacking team and a boring team (as true as it is at times) plays right into the hands of the opposition, as players start getting nervy and try to take stupid chances in an effort to force an opening.
Van Gaal's tactics are perfect for a team that can score an early goal, and play the rest of the game with the intent to catch the opposition making a mistake. It'll never work when the other team plays with the idea that a point will suffice and are more than happy to sit back and frustrate us.
We're in a rut right now, need some individual brilliance over the next few weeks to get the press off the team's back.
All the noise the media and the fans are creating about us not being an attacking team and a boring team (as true as it is at times) plays right into the hands of the opposition, as players start getting nervy and try to take stupid chances in an effort to force an opening.
Van Gaal's tactics are perfect for a team that can score an early goal, and play the rest of the game with the intent to catch the opposition making a mistake. It'll never work when the other team plays with the idea that a point will suffice and are more than happy to sit back and frustrate us.
We're in a rut right now, need some individual brilliance over the next few weeks to get the press off the team's back.
So difficult to put the blame on one thing, however, if I had to pick on something I would say he continues to grossly underestimate teams. His style is all based on keeping the ball until someone makes a mistake - well, its obvious to us that teams like Stoke, West Ham, West Brom etc are all very organised and it takes speed of play to pull them out of position. Ask them to sit and defend as a unit and they will do it all day long.
When I read stuff like the notebook and writing down all the mistakes to take the players through it really makes me cringe. What the hell does he think is going to happen? Of course they are going to take less risk because he's hammered them for making a mistake. All this nonsense of the "total human being principle" - surely he sees that continually talking to someone about their mistakes is going to have an effect?
Unfortunately, what we are seeing at Utd is just a repeat of his Barca and Bayern mistakes and unless he can change (extremely unlikely), its the beginning of the end. As soon as the players smell blood in terms of the managers future, its going to come down like a deck of cards.
When I read stuff like the notebook and writing down all the mistakes to take the players through it really makes me cringe. What the hell does he think is going to happen? Of course they are going to take less risk because he's hammered them for making a mistake. All this nonsense of the "total human being principle" - surely he sees that continually talking to someone about their mistakes is going to have an effect?
Unfortunately, what we are seeing at Utd is just a repeat of his Barca and Bayern mistakes and unless he can change (extremely unlikely), its the beginning of the end. As soon as the players smell blood in terms of the managers future, its going to come down like a deck of cards.
"I'll give you facts. We are better than last season. We went further in the Capital One Cup this year."
Just seen this. If Rafa made these comments he would be slaughtered. LVG needs to get a fecking grip.
Just seen this. If Rafa made these comments he would be slaughtered. LVG needs to get a fecking grip.I didn't say it should be ripped apart. I mean that it is essentially the same given how many players we still need and those that are on their last legs. I also challenged the notion the squad is in good shape. How could it be when it's so thin. If he left tomorrow we'd need about 4/5 for depth and question marks over whether we need to replace certain others. I never said I wanted them thrown out either. If you take your time while reading the post you'll see that.
Every year we're unlucky with injuries - true we've had more impact ones this year that required surgery, but this is exactly why you have a sufficiently deep squad, especially when you play in 4 competitions. That issue is on him as he had summer to make sure he replaced the deadwood not just got rid of it (or adequately promoted from within).
Your words. Not mine.
Also, I said earlier, my comments were directed at the post that said, The squad needs ripped apart. If that is not your position, then there is no point arguing.
As for the squad being in good shape, I said the squad is good enough to progress into the CL stage and challenge for the title, but its just been mismanaged. Yes, the squad is thin, but it is good enough to win against the likes of N'castle, West ham,Leicester,Palace which would have us in the top of the league had we managed to win a few of those games.
I didn't say it should be ripper apart. I challenged the notion the squad is in good shape. How could it be when it's so thin. If he left tomorrow we'd need about 4/5 for depth and question marks over whether we need to replace certain others. I never said I wanted them thrown out either. If you take your time while reading the post you'll see that.
Which I've clarified in the post after. You may as well call it ripping the squad apart for the number of players who need to be replaced and added. We can talk about the semantics of the wording if you like but the main thrust is the squad is not in good shape for any new manager coming in.
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I still believe we are two world-class players away from becoming a top team and winning the league. That's the main issue.
Unfortunately, Di Maria did not work out, Rooney hasn't found his form, Mata has never been world class, Martial is still too young, Bastian is not as good as we hoped...
We currently don't have a single world class outfield player!
We need to spend another 150 million for two TOP players. And it is not easy to find them, even if we have the money. But at this point we need world class players to make the difference. Nothing else will lead us to trophies.
LVG is good enough. Sometimes, he may be doing questionable things (even stupid things) but who doesn't? Even SAF has done a lot of bizarre substitutions over the years. Any other manager will also do those, especially when the team does not play well. Most top managers will gamble when both Plan A and plan B (Fellaini) do not work.
Unfortunately, Di Maria did not work out, Rooney hasn't found his form, Mata has never been world class, Martial is still too young, Bastian is not as good as we hoped...
We currently don't have a single world class outfield player!
We need to spend another 150 million for two TOP players. And it is not easy to find them, even if we have the money. But at this point we need world class players to make the difference. Nothing else will lead us to trophies.
LVG is good enough. Sometimes, he may be doing questionable things (even stupid things) but who doesn't? Even SAF has done a lot of bizarre substitutions over the years. Any other manager will also do those, especially when the team does not play well. Most top managers will gamble when both Plan A and plan B (Fellaini) do not work.
What baffles me is everyone settling for winning the league, we are Manchester United. We should be winning European competitions, not just a very weak league that is being led by Leicester City. We have the finances to compete with the best, we spend as much money as the best teams do, so why is it we're so far from the best teams in Europe?I still believe we are two world-class players away from becoming a top team and winning the league. That's the main issue.
Unfortunately, Di Maria did not work out, Rooney hasn't found his form, Mata has never been world class, Martial is still too young, Bastian is not as good as we hoped...
We currently don't have a single world class outfield player!
We need to spend another 150 million for two TOP players. And it is not easy to find them, even if we have the money. But at this point we need world class players to make the difference. Nothing else will lead us to trophies.
LVG is good enough. Sometimes, he may be doing questionable things (even stupid things) but who doesn't? Even SAF has done a lot of bizarre substitutions over the years. Any other manager will also do those, especially when the team does not play well. Most top managers will gamble when both Plan A and plan B (Fellaini) do not work.
Very strange post. You realise we've won the champions league only 3 times in our entire history, right? "Should be winning European Competitions" seems a bit fair fetched. We didn't win one in Sir Alex's last 5 years in charge.
Also settling for winning the league is just a little arrogant
If you look at last summer isolated then yes, the bolded is true. But the clubs you compare us to have been spending massively year in year out for the last 3-4 years, which is why they are at the top.
We only starting spending huge on transfers once LVG came in, one year ago. How do you expect to be on the same level and madrid who has soent similar amount year in year out to create a strong squad.
Stop looking at things in isolation, madrid, psg and city have been spending big for years, we only started last year. We will need to catch up.
it all stems for the fecking 250m spent. That's where the weird expectations derive from.Very strange post. You realise we've won the champions league only 3 times in our entire history, right? "Should be winning European Competitions" seems a bit fair fetched. We didn't win one in Sir Alex's last 5 years in charge.
Also settling for winning the league is just a little arrogant
spend big in 1 summer and all of a sudden you should be bigger and better than clubs that have been doing it for the last 4/5 years
Actually we do spend a lot. But sadly due to so many players turning shit/declining/retiring, we've had to replace an absurd amount of players. That's what people often forget when speaking about our spending. We're putting almost an entirely new squad. Hence, the bloated spending. Unlike say, city, who spent last season to turn a good attack into a great attack. Strengthening vs rebuilding.
You misunderstood my post, that is the level we should be aspiring to. We can match those teams for global brand, money and influence but are nowhere near them in a footballing sense, which is the frustrating part. We should aspire to be amongst the elite teams in Europe, not getting kicked out of the Champions league to PSV. It's all just a little weird, is it the tactics? The manager? The lack of "world class" players? Who knows, but I'm not sure LVG is the one who can turn it around. Getting Pep or Carlo would be the first step in working our way towards the elite.Very strange post. You realise we've won the champions league only 3 times in our entire history, right? "Should be winning European Competitions" seems a bit fair fetched. We didn't win one in Sir Alex's last 5 years in charge.
Also settling for winning the league is just a little arrogant
It's fans who are happy to just be the top dog in a mediocre league that baffles me, when we should be aspiring much higher considering how big of a brand and club we are, is all I'm suggesting.
With regards to the first bolded bit, getting knocked out of the CL is definitely not what LVG or the club aspire us to achieve. I'm sure the club does have high aspirations as does LVG. It just needs to progress better and more visibly than it is. I don't think we were ever going to be an elite team this season. That's not how it works, but we need to see progress soon.
With regards to the second bit, United's greatness of the last 2-3 decades is built upon being top dogs in England. CL success came to us once a decade. Besides, progress always happens in steps. You have to first establish yourself as a contender in your own league, then as the best team in your own league and then you can try and push yourselves towards an "elite team" status. If fans suddenly expect for us to be Bayern or Barca after a season of 4th and 7th, then they'd be setting themselves up for disappointment caused by crazy expectations.
I like that post, and I don't know how to explain that but I don't like the fact that we are trying to win the league at all cost as soon as possible. I want to see us build a foolproof platform and I feel that in an attempt to go fast we are failing to do so.
In Sport success is based on how you master your style, your approach , we don't master our style of football and are hiding that fact behind relatively good results and I hate that.
While I accept and agree with your points about it not being a quick fix (which I agree with, we're going to need time), I don't agree with you using our past success as a platform to determine our future in Europe. I along with just about most other fans do not expect a Champions league title soon, I'd be happy if we could just score a few goals at the moment to be fair
Overall though my point is, yes, winning the EPL would be a major step forward in terms of progress, yes, it is a very good goal to work towards, but no, it should not be where we draw the line in terms of success. Barcelona have won 5 (?) Champions league trophies, meaning earlier to this year, they had won 4, no-where near Madrid's 10, yet that wasn't a valid excuse to not improve the team and aspire to be the dominant force they are currently, granted they've always been good, but they are currently on another level.Using elite players flopping as an excuse to justify our situation is just silly imo. High profile signings could fail and do fail at a multitude of clubs, it's part and parcel of the game.
This is the key point most keep missing but it's so apparent that one feels it's deliberate and the figure is thrown around for effect. However my biggest issue with Van Gaal is not the money spent but the fact that he is too quick to throw players out rather than working on and with them to overcome certain issues, technical and mental, hurting their form. Players like Rafael, Kagawa, Nani, Van Persie, Hernandez and, at a stretch, Evans could have been salvaged aided our cause instead of leaving us with a paper thin squad full of inexperienced and out of form players. He's turned out to be a cheque book manager and that doesn't sit right with the idea I have of United at all.
Has admitted that he hasn't met expectations. At least he's not that deluded.
I didn't mind those sales actually. But they should have been replaced with adequate signings in attack in particular.
Why do you think our overall ambition is to win the premier league though? It's not as though we're just going to disband after winning a league title. The ultimate aim is clearly to be back among the top 2-3 clubs on the planet if not the best. But that doesn't mean you don't have shorter-term goals. For the club to win the league within 3-4 years of the epic disaster following SAF would be fantastic.While I accept and agree with your points about it not being a quick fix (which I agree with, we're going to need time), I don't agree with you using our past success as a platform to determine our future in Europe. I along with just about most other fans do not expect a Champions league title soon, I'd be happy if we could just score a few goals at the moment to be fair
I don't understand this part. When did I say this?
I agree to an extent. That DOF idea was a good one we should implement. But well, here we are with Woodward+manager so let's hope that works out well. The issue with building a foolproof platform taking our time with it is the demands of the modern game. Even on this forum everyone wants us clicking now. In fact people think we're not going fast enough.
Who is hiding exactly? Van Gaal will know that he's not got his team to where he would have wanted to 1.5 years into his reign. He can't say it, and every manager tends to be defensive in front of the press but he'll know that. The club will know that.
You are right, the manager can't be open about it. But all the talks about the board being happy with LVG and where the team is or the talk about Giggs don't fill me with confidence.