Man Utd fans asked about safe standing at Old Trafford

[Sultan]

Manchester United have asked fans whether they want standing back at Old Trafford if it was made legal.

Premier League clubs recently held initial talks on the possibility of introducing safe standing at grounds.

Top flight and Championship stadiums have had to be all-seater since terraces were outlawed in the aftermath of the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

Safe-standing areas, featuring retractable seats, are used at Celtic and abroad, notably in Germany.

Premier League chiefs have acknowledged a "softening" around the topic of standing clubs, with an improved atmosphere cited as one of the benefits, and clubs have agreed to hold further talks in the new year.

But some clubs - including Everton - are against it and it would need government legislation to change if safe standing was introduced at stadiums in England.

United contacted season-ticket holders on Thursday and included the question in a 20-point survey.

Supporters were asked for the three areas of Old Trafford - the biggest club ground in the UK, with a capacity of 75,635 - that they would prefer standing to be introduced.

It is believed to be the first time a Premier League club has surveyed its fans about the idea of bringing standing back to English grounds.

Jon Darch, who runs the Safe Standing Roadshow, which promotes the use of rail seats, said: "I am sure that the level of interest will be huge and look forward both to hearing the results and to seeing other Premier League clubs follow suit and ask their fans if they would also like to be formally allowed to stand at games in dedicated areas of rail seating, specifically designed for safe standing."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38411627

 

[Sultan]

I've filled out the survey in favour.

The systems are in place for safe standing and have proven to work at various clubs. Most notably in Germany. I do however think United should have had a dedicated survey rather than a simple question tucked in amongst other questions directed at season ticket holders.

 

[NextSeason]

Just posted about this survey in the ticket thread. I've filled it out. Safe-standing would be a massive step towards improving the atmosphere at OT I feel.

 

[ZupZup]

I did the survey... obviously in favour. My only selfish concern is that obviously if they did introduce safe standing, it would inevitably be in the lower tiers.

Like most of the Stretty upper tier, I stand anyway during matches and always have. Would an introduction of safe standing in the lower tiers cause a change where the club only allow standing in those areas? Obviously that would not go down well and to be fair, my concerns are likely just paranoia on my part.

 

[kps88]

Any one know why Everton are against it?

 

[JJ12]

What's the score with safe standing in European competitions?

Wasn't there a time where Dortmund couldn't use their full allocation because of safe standing regulations?

 

[pacifictheme]

Any one know why Everton are against it?

Sarcastic i assume?

All for it pwrsonally. Works in Germany. Not comparible to what happened in the past. No reason not to do it.

 

[zeekey]

It's railed seating as far as I understand. So not even terracing and much safe than people standing in front of their seats like we do now. That Hull game is a case in point. Seats didn't stop that fella breaking his leg when everyone fell in top of him. The rails would arguably prevent this and bruised shins.

 

[Sultan]

Any one know why Everton are against it?

I suppose Everton are not in support due to emotional reasons being based in Liverpool (Hillsborough). However, safe standing now being talked about is a completely different concept than in the past.

 

[TheReligion]

Anyone against safe standing because of Hillsborough needs to give their head a wobble.

 

[Bogman]

Anyone against safe standing because of Hillsborough needs to give their head a wobble.

Yep, it's a different universe away from what's being proposed, yet some people react emotionally rather than logically.

 

[Jaxdan]

Anyone against safe standing because of Hillsborough needs to give their head a wobble.

Agreed. It would still be assigned 'seating' (standing?) and a controlled atmosphere. Poor folks at Hillsborough died due to incompetent officials and lack of organization, not to mention the 'pen fence' that is now long gone for the most part. I'm older now, so I have no idea why anyone would want to stand for two hours. I'll sit elsewhere, but I see no problems with safe standing in a more modern controlled environment.

 

[Crossie]

What's the score with safe standing in European competitions?

Wasn't there a time where Dortmund couldn't use their full allocation because of safe standing regulations?

No German club competing in the CL or EL can use their stands* during those matches. Therefore, all German clubs have constructions in place to convert from stands to seats for UEFA competition games.

* Question to native English speakers: Why is it called 'safe standing'? Why not just stand?

ETA: Realized I didn't make it clear enough that the conversion to seats reduce the overall capacity in German stadiums. IIRC, it takes almost 2 days to convert the Südtribüne from a standing area for 24,454 people standing to an area with around 11,000 seats.

 

[Fraser76]

What's the score with safe standing in European competitions?

Wasn't there a time where Dortmund couldn't use their full allocation because of safe standing regulations?

The ones at Celtic Park are Rails with a flip down seat attached. For European games the seat is locked in the down position, so no problem for European games.

 

[Jaxdan]

No German club competing in the CL or EL can use their stands* during those matches. Therefore, all German clubs have constructions in place to convert from stands to seats for UEFA competition games.

* Question to native English speakers: Why is it called 'safe standing'? Why not just stand?

Because many of us like to sit and not have to stare at someone's back. If you designate a safe standing area, win-win for everyone.

 

[Traub]

The ones at Celtic Park are Rails with a flip down seat attached. For European games the seat is locked in the down position, so no problem for European games.

Wait, does this mean that capacity isn't increased by allowing safe standing? So basically it's folding the chair into the ground?

 

[Nanook]

* Question to native English speakers: Why is it called 'safe standing'? Why not just stand?

I think it's due to Hillsborough. Some people are still against standing at stadiums so by calling it 'safe standing' I think they're trying to convince those who don't want it.

 

[Crossie]

Thanks to you both @Nanook, @Jaxdan

 

[Fraser76]

Wait, does this mean that capacity isn't increased by allowing safe standing? So basically it's folding the chair into the ground?

The capacity will stay the same. You will still get a seat number on your ticket, just you will stand there rather than sit.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/38017172

Shows the seats at Celtic Park

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I think it's due to Hillsborough. Some people are still against standing at stadiums so by calling it 'safe standing' I think they're trying to convince those who don't want it.

There's no 'think' about it. It's entirely down to Hillsborough.

If there's enough evidence that it could work then we should go for it

 

[Globule]

No German club competing in the CL or EL can use their stands* during those matches. Therefore, all German clubs have constructions in place to convert from stands to seats for UEFA competition games.

* Question to native English speakers: Why is it called 'safe standing'? Why not just stand?

Purely to help sell the idea I imagine. It's a way to let people know that standing has moved on and there are ways to keep it organised and safer. Hillsborough has forever tainted the idea of standing for some, while plenty of others would have reservations about it being re-introduced. The occasional stories we see, where they recall people being squashed in, pissing on the stands, not seeing the matches etc etc don't help either.

 

[Sandikan]

I don't think anyone can really argue that Hillsborough only happened due to the standing element. They'd surely recognise it was much more to do with overcrowding, Police incompetence and the insanity of gates penning you in.

Having said that, i'm just not a fan of any idea of going back to standing. It seems a step back in time. It works at the lower levels, because typically you're talking much smaller numbers, and you have plenty of room.
But packing tonnes of people into a sell out area, just surely makes things difficult, in terms of having to rebuild an area, make it "safe", policing/stewarding etc.

I've seen how people act when they think they have the security and anonymity of a gang round them quite a lot at league 2 level

I know a lot of people disagree and that's fair enough, it is all about opinions, and as most on here have said they're in favour, thought i'd throw in the other side of the coin.

 

[OldTrevil]

Standing areas have great atmospheres, if instituted it's where I'd want to go visiting Old Trafford.

 

[Rood]

Great to see the pressure growing for 'safe standing' - not long back it seems impossible but there has been a lot of progress in recent years

In J stand (singing section) I stand pretty much all game every game anyway and that is actually a lot more dangerous in a seated area than the rail seats/stand that are proposed

 

[wolvored]

Im not a fan of standing again either. Its much safer with the sitting. In 1979 I was in the Smethwick end at the baggies when we lost 1-0. Near the end we had a corner and the crowd pushed forward and a kid in front of me fell then I fell on top of him and someone fell on me etc etc. I thought I was going to die my chest was killing me. The kid was out cold 3 of us had to go to Sandwell Hospital for check ups. Luckily we were all alright but it could of been serious. In fact this was a common occurance over all grounds in the standing era. This has never happened as far as Im aware in seats.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Im not a fan of standing again either. Its much safer with the sitting. In 1979 I was in the Smethwick end at the baggies when we lost 1-0. Near the end we had a corner and the crowd pushed forward and a kid in front of me fell then I fell on top of him and someone fell on me etc etc. I thought I was going to die my chest was killing me. The kid was out cold 3 of us had to go to Sandwell Hospital for check ups. Luckily we were all alright but it could of been serious. In fact this was a common occurance over all grounds in the standing era. This has never happened as far as Im aware in seats.

You'd be given the choice.

Safe standing is a world away from the terraces of old.

 

[babsk]

It would really help improve the atmosphere at OT and as long as its safe we should go for it. Some fans don't like sitting down anyway

 

[Stobzilla]

Great to see the pressure growing for 'safe standing' - not long back it seems impossible but there has been a lot of progress in recent years

In J stand (singing section) I stand pretty much all game every game anyway and that is actually a lot more dangerous in a seated area than the rail seats/stand that are proposed

It is a pain in the arse to sit for tall feckers like me as well. Seats are dangerous as hell all around.

 

[SkeppyRed]

I don't think anyone can really argue that Hillsborough only happened due to the standing element. They'd surely recognise it was much more to do with overcrowding, Police incompetence and the insanity of gates penning you in.

Having said that, i'm just not a fan of any idea of going back to standing. It seems a step back in time. It works at the lower levels, because typically you're talking much smaller numbers, and you have plenty of room.
But packing tonnes of people into a sell out area, just surely makes things difficult, in terms of having to rebuild an area, make it "safe", policing/stewarding etc.

I've seen how people act when they think they have the security and anonymity of a gang round them quite a lot at league 2 level

I know a lot of people disagree and that's fair enough, it is all about opinions, and as most on here have said they're in favour, thought i'd throw in the other side of the coin.

Fair enough. What's your opinion on atmosphere's at football in general btw? Do you share the view that I have that a vocal partisan crowd can win it's team extra points over a season? Or do you believe the crowd makes no difference?

The way you talk about 'the anonymity of gangs' is a interesting way of looking at it, but I have to be honest and say it's a pretty soft arse one.

IMO from growing up going to old Trafford the atmosphere was always better when there was a bit of an edge to it. Nothing wrong with that and most importantly as a young lad I never felt unsafe.

 

[RK]

The reality is that, although we have all-seater stadiums, we don't have all-sitting fans. And we never have.

The safest thing to do is to allow safe-standing in designated areas.

 

[Sandikan]

Fair enough. What's your opinion on atmosphere's at football in general btw? Do you share the view that I have that a vocal partisan crowd can win it's team extra points over a season? Or do you believe the crowd makes no difference?

The way you talk about 'the anonymity of gangs' is a interesting way of looking at it, but I have to be honest and say it's a pretty soft arse one.

IMO from growing up going to old Trafford the atmosphere was always better when there was a bit of an edge to it. Nothing wrong with that and most importantly as a young lad I never felt unsafe.

It'd be an interesting study to see whether noise and sound of a crowd make any odds.
There's clearly a home advantage, is it from those, or is it the surroundings. Or is it all a mental image.

I'm inclined to think the quality and mentality of your players is the main thing involved, and anything else is negligible margins.

 

[Penna]

Im not a fan of standing again either. Its much safer with the sitting. In 1979 I was in the Smethwick end at the baggies when we lost 1-0. Near the end we had a corner and the crowd pushed forward and a kid in front of me fell then I fell on top of him and someone fell on me etc etc. I thought I was going to die my chest was killing me. The kid was out cold 3 of us had to go to Sandwell Hospital for check ups. Luckily we were all alright but it could of been serious. In fact this was a common occurance over all grounds in the standing era. This has never happened as far as Im aware in seats.

I was in a bit of a crush at Maine Road back when I was a young teenager, my older sister was knocked over and trampled on. She also ended up being checked out in hospital that day. Thinking back, much of the problem was exacerbated by the numbers of people around us who all been drinking booze for some time and were rather uninhibited. They honestly were unaware that people were in difficulty and were oblivious to the fact that pushing forward was having an impact lower down. When you're packed together, that's a recipe for disaster.

Having said that, I'd be all in favour of a return to a safer form of standing. Let's face it, those of us who have stood on crowded terraces back in the day know that there was no way that was ever really 'safe'. It was OK as long as everyone stood in their spot and didn't move.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Im not a fan of standing again either. Its much safer with the sitting. In 1979 I was in the Smethwick end at the baggies when we lost 1-0. Near the end we had a corner and the crowd pushed forward and a kid in front of me fell then I fell on top of him and someone fell on me etc etc. I thought I was going to die my chest was killing me. The kid was out cold 3 of us had to go to Sandwell Hospital for check ups. Luckily we were all alright but it could of been serious. In fact this was a common occurance over all grounds in the standing era. This has never happened as far as Im aware in seats.

There is an enormous difference between open terraces with the odd barrier here and there and these 'safe standing' terraces where everyone has basically an allocated standing area with a bar immediately in front of them. It's much safer than standing at the seats like a lot do at the mo.

 

[hp88]

Not sure how anyone could disagree with this, every ground I have been to I have seen home fans standing up, it will be safer doing that when you have got some sort rail in front of you to stop you from falling into the row in front.

 

[matherto]

Im not a fan of standing again either. Its much safer with the sitting. In 1979 I was in the Smethwick end at the baggies when we lost 1-0. Near the end we had a corner and the crowd pushed forward and a kid in front of me fell then I fell on top of him and someone fell on me etc etc. I thought I was going to die my chest was killing me. The kid was out cold 3 of us had to go to Sandwell Hospital for check ups. Luckily we were all alright but it could of been serious. In fact this was a common occurance over all grounds in the standing era. This has never happened as far as Im aware in seats.

It's this kind of thinking that needs to be stopped.

Open your bloody eyes and look at the evidence and the technology and how much different it would be from the deathtraps that stadiums were pre-Taylor report and you'd see the evidence is right there for it to be brought back safely.

As a side note, I always find it odd that the Hillsborough families fought so long and hard to clear their loved ones names of any wrongdoing and pin the blame rightly on the police failing to control the crowd, the pens trapping people in a situation that was always going to cause deaths and the stadium not being up to scratch or having a valid safety certificate and yet you mention the one thing that absolutely didn't contribute to that horrible disaster - standing - and people lose their minds at the thought of it.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Hope this happens

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@Sultan I deleted the email by mistake and emptied my trash before reading this thread, now I can't find a link to the survey anywhere so I don't suppose there's any chance you could PM the link if it's not personal?

I think this is the shot in the arm English football so desperately needs to bring back the atmosphere to large arenas like OT. Just image the red wall at the Stretty

 

[wolvored]

It's this kind of thinking that needs to be stopped.

Open your bloody eyes and look at the evidence and the technology and how much different it would be from the deathtraps that stadiums were pre-Taylor report and you'd see the evidence is right there for it to be brought back safely.

As a side note, I always find it odd that the Hillsborough families fought so long and hard to clear their loved ones names of any wrongdoing and pin the blame rightly on the police failing to control the crowd, the pens trapping people in a situation that was always going to cause deaths and the stadium not being up to scratch or having a valid safety certificate and yet you mention the one thing that absolutely didn't contribute to that horrible disaster - standing - and people lose their minds at the thought of it.

Are you for real? I could of got crushed to death as well as a little boy and others. Do you think whatever a report says I'd want to back bringing back standing?

 

[Snowjoe]

Are you for real? I could of got crushed to death as well as a little boy and others. Do you think whatever a report says I'd want to back bringing back standing?

The whole point is that it's safe standing. The only resemblance to the terraces of old is that people will be stood up.

Did you watch the video in the BBC link to Celtic's arrangement earlier? Every single row is segregated, no one can crush forward.

 

[Trizy]

Surely it won't change the atmosphere much? Most of the fans outside the Stretty are boring and probably rather sit.