[gr3yham3]

Again, the people here who say that Herrera should be replaced by someone else because he is not good enough for a top team - who is that someone?

I also see arguments that his passing range is not as expansive as Pogba or Carrick, or that he does not shield the defence as well as Matic or Carrick since his positioning is not as great as them. So do you expect Herrera to have all the attributes of boundless energy, skill on the ball, superb positioning and 60 yard passing range? If so, that must be one of the best midfielders to have played the game ever.

As mentioned by Pof:" He's versatile, can operate in multiple midfield roles and follows instructions to a tee. He's a manager's dream." - what more could you want? To add to that, he loves the club, raises his game against the 'better' sides and really is a quality candidate to be the next captain.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Controlling the game is not the same thing as having more possession. The midfield is also not the only part of the team responsible for possession. Furthermore, a single player can have a good day while the unit he is part of doesn't. For example, a certain defender can play well while everyone else around him makes mistakes left and right. In other words, to say Spurs had more possession therefore Dembele > Herrera is non sequitur.

Firstly, the person who controls the ball (possession) controls the game. The other team has to respond to what they do with the ball. More possession = more control

Its simple comprehension - I never said "Spurs had more possession therefore Dembele > Herrera". My point remains "You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game." i.e. the spurs game does not proof that Herrera outclassed Dembele.

If you want detailed analysis of what happened in the game, particularly where possession was held, you can check on whoscored. Even from common sense, if the losing team has more possession, then that possession will most likely be in the midfield and/or the opposition 3rd. They wouldnt waste their time passing in their defense.

 

[roonster09]

Who dominates possession is often the clearest indication of who was in control of the midfield. Hence Herrera could not have outclassed Dembele if Dembele's team dominated possession.

Go and chick check who had more possession when ManUtd lost 4-0 to Chelsea. IIRC ManUtd did. Your logic is flawed and I can give many more examples to prove that.

 

[Akshay]

Firstly, the person who controls the ball (possession) controls the game. The other team has to respond to what they do with the ball. More possession = more control

Its simple comprehension - I never said "Spurs had more possession therefore Dembele > Herrera". My point remains "You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game." i.e. the spurs game does not proof that Herrera outclassed Dembele.

If you want detailed analysis of what happened in the game, particularly where possession was held, you can check on whoscored. Even from common sense, if the losing team has more possession, then that possession will most likely be in the midfield and/or the opposition 3rd. They wouldnt waste their time passing in their defense.

By your logic we controlled plenty of games last season, including ones in which we lost without ever showing any attacking threat. You can control the game by holding the ball or by shutting down the opposition's attacking routes. It's quite clear we prefer the latter under Mourinho, while we attempted the former under LVG. That doesn't change the quality or performance of our midfielders.

Go and chick check who had more possession when ManUtd lost 4-0 to Chelsea. IIRC ManUtd did. Your logic is flawed and I can give many more examples to prove that.

Yep, in fact someone posted stats showing Chelsea have won, and only won, against the top 6 when they had less possession.

 

[Lawman]

No. Not Spot on @El Jefe
Nobody would play the likes of Vidal, Essien,Matuidi, or Rakitic in a 442 or 4231 because neither possess the ability to be the consitent primary creative midfielder of a team, like 8s today such as Fabregas or be a pure defensive midfielder who shielded defense such as Matic. That is not a bad thing, that is not a bad thing as all mentioned players are/were essential to their team's makeup just as Ander Herrera is.

As you are hinting at, it comes down to how we are going to progress next year. If we go a 4231, which I hope we don't, then Herrera needs to be dropped and we need to get a proper anchor of the defense. If not, then we still need to get another DM who can glue the midfield and provide energetic legs.

3 you mention in Vidal Essian Rakitic are better players than Herrera. Matuidi I think is also but less so than the others. Vidal and Essian could easily play in a 2 man midfield but their partner would have to compliment (Vidal especially) but Essian was a monster so to compare him to Herrera is strange imo. Fabregas is not an 8 for many a year due to his lack of legs nowadays. But early 20s he could play 6,8 or 10 he was that good. Plus his passing and choice of passing then and now is far superior to Herrera. We need both a new 6 and eventually an 8 to replace Herrera imo someone who is capable of some magic and work rate or some one who has the legs to go past the strikers and add a goal threat. We don't have that just now in Herrera .

 

[jungledrums]

Its like saying cos a team scored the only chance they had makes their attack better than the opponent,who created more chances, had more shots on goal and only failed to score cos of the GK making saves.

Th midfield is the only area where similasr parts of each team directly face off (as opposed to attack vs defense). You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game. A moment of brilliance does not make up for it.

tu capisci?

Good point @Akshay. Beyond that, tactics play a big part in who controls possession. If United didn't set out to dominate possession due to Mourinho's approach to the game, how the feck can you use that as a stick to beat Herrera? Flawed logic.

 

[Lawman]

As opposed to Kante who is a great passer? Jesus. Then again you also can't seem to accept Herrera's a big game player.

Some people in this thread need to get a grip. Herrera has been one of the best midfielders in the league and there's not one I think could perform in the different roles he's had to perform this season. Would love to know which other midfielder in the league could mark Hazard out of a match and also create a goal with a world class through ball.

This was one game the other game versus Chelsea we got pumped 4-0 and Herrera got sent off for 2 tackles on Hazard. Now I'm not saying we look at just one but take all the games into consideration. For me he is a decent player (great to have in the squad) but isn't good enough in attack or defence long term or creative enough in his passing or legs to run past the striker to merit that 8 role.

 

[gr3yham3]

Firstly, the person who controls the ball (possession) controls the game. The other team has to respond to what they do with the ball. More possession = more control

Its simple comprehension - I never said "Spurs had more possession therefore Dembele > Herrera". My point remains "You cannot claim to outclass somebody in midfield when you failed to control the midfield over the course of the game." i.e. the spurs game does not proof that Herrera outclassed Dembele.

If you want detailed analysis of what happened in the game, particularly where possession was held, you can check on whoscored. Even from common sense, if the losing team has more possession, then that possession will most likely be in the midfield and/or the opposition 3rd. They wouldnt waste their time passing in their defense.

So, as mentioned, we dominated our games under LvG, since we always had 60% possession? We were the losing team a lot then during that time. Possession does not win you games alone.

Anyway, we had more shots on goal and more shots on target than Spurs in that game, so to say that they controlled the game does not seem to hold much water.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

By your logic we controlled plenty of games last season, including ones in which we lost without ever showing any attacking threat. You can control the game by holding the ball or by shutting down the opposition's attacking routes. It's quite clear we prefer the latter under Mourinho, while we attempted the former under LVG. That doesn't change the quality or performance of our midfielders.


Yep, in fact someone posted stats showing Chelsea have won, and only won, against the top 6 when they had less possession.

I dont see how this is such a difficult concept. It is simply the basis of the game - possesion of the ball = control of the game.

You dont control a game by 'shutting down attacking routes' - you are simply defending. Control implies you can dictate what happens and you cannot do that without the ball.

The fact that you have control does not equate to you making effective use of it. You can have control but not be constructive, like those old italian teams when keepers could still handle a back pass - they will score 1 goal and keep passing back to the GK.

Also, that does not bar you from intentionally ceding possession (and thus control) of the game to the other, hoping to seize it at the right moment and possibly hit them on the counter. But until you have the ball, you do not have control, and have no way to dictate what happens next.

But I digress, the original point remains, you cannot claim that Herrera outclassed Dembele in a game when Dembele's team controlled the midfield, particularly when Dembele was a key part to that control. I have not said that Dembele outclassed Herrera in that game as some seem to be interpreting it

 

[gr3yham3]

This was one game the other game versus Chelsea we got pumped 4-0 and Herrera got sent off for 2 tackles on Hazard. Now I'm not saying we look at just one but take all the games into consideration. For me he is a decent player (great to have in the squad) but isn't good enough in attack or defence long term or creative enough in his passing or legs to run past the striker to merit that 8 role.

Herrera got sent off in the FA cup game that we lost 1-0 to a Kante goal, not the 4-0 EPL game right? I am sure him not going running past the striker to get into goalscoring positions is an instruction from Jose, since that would be more of Pogba or Fellaini's job. And to say that Herrera has no legs is really a huge understatement - how can one say he has no stamina?

3 you mention in Vidal Essian Rakitic are better players than Herrera. Matuidi I think is also but less so than the others. Vidal and Essian could easily play in a 2 man midfield but their partner would have to compliment (Vidal especially) but Essian was a monster so to compare him to Herrera is strange imo. Fabregas is not an 8 for many a year due to his lack of legs nowadays. But early 20s he could play 6,8 or 10 he was that good. Plus his passing and choice of passing then and now is far superior to Herrera. We need both a new 6 and eventually an 8 to replace Herrera imo someone who is capable of some magic and work rate or some one who has the legs to go past the strikers and add a goal threat. We don't have that just now in Herrera .

So who will be this new no.8 who can do everything Herrera can and more? Can't think of anyone that we can get.

 

[roonster09]

Yep, in fact someone posted stats showing Chelsea have won, and only won, against the top 6 when they had less possession.

Exactly. It's like few didn't even watch games but using stats to make point. We dominated them completely and their only chance came from set piece.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

So, as mentioned, we dominated our games under LvG, since we always had 60% possession? We were the losing team a lot then during that time. Possession does not win you games alone.

Anyway, we had more shots on goal and more shots on target than Spurs in that game, so to say that they controlled the game does not seem to hold much water.

Nobody is saying possession=wins. What I have said is possession=control. What you do with that control is a different discussion.

Also having more shots does not mean you controlled the game, cos for all we know you could have been firing shots from anywhere. The most you can say from taking more shots is that your attack was more aggressive.

 

[Akshay]

I dont see how this is such a difficult concept. It is simply the basis of the game - possesion of the ball = control of the game.

You dont control a game by 'shutting down attacking routes' - you are simply defending. Control implies you can dictate what happens and you cannot do that without the ball.

The fact that you have control does not equate to you making effective use of it. You can have control but not be constructive, like those old italian teams when keepers could still handle a back pass - they will score 1 goal and keep passing back to the GK.

Also, that does not bar you from intentionally ceding possession (and thus control) of the game to the other, hoping to seize it at the right moment and possibly hit them on the counter. But until you have the ball, you do not have control, and have no way to dictate what happens next.

But I digress, the original point remains, you cannot claim that Herrera outclassed Dembele in a game when Dembele's team controlled the midfield, particularly when Dembele was a key part to that control. I have not said that Dembele outclassed Herrera in that game as some seem to be interpreting it

This is your logic:

1) Having more possession is always good and something both teams are striving for.
2) Therefore the team who had more possession cannot have had a worse performing midfield than the opponent.
3) Therefore any midfielder in the opposition couldn't have performed better.

None of those claims are true individually, and hence your conclusion from them is also flawed.

 

[Lawman]

Herrera got sent off in the FA cup game that we lost 1-0 to a Kante goal, not the 4-0 EPL game right? I am sure him not going running past the striker to get into goalscoring positions is an instruction from Jose, since that would be more of Pogba or Fellaini's job. And to say that Herrera has no legs is really a huge understatement - how can one say he has no stamina?



So who will be this new no.8 who can do everything Herrera can and more? Can't think of anyone that we can get.

No your correct Herrera played as the defensive 6 in our 4-0 crumble.

 

[Lawman]

This is your logic:

1) Having more possession is always good and something both teams are striving for.
2) Therefore the team who had more possession cannot have had a worse performing midfield than the opponent.
3) Therefore any midfielder in the opposition couldn't have performed better.

None of those claims are true individually, and hence your conclusion from them is also flawed.

Think you are slanting what he is saying buddy.

 

[Akshay]

Think you are slanting what he is saying buddy.

In what way?

 

[Lawman]

In what way?

What he is saying if a team controls the match in midfield through possession then it's very unlikely that the opposing teams midfield has out classed the team that dominated/controlled midfield in possession.

Now most teams do strive for possession (tactically some don't but normally its selected games designed to counter). Plus yes a midfielder can have a better game without possession but this is also less common.

 

[Yagami]

I think it's harsh to criticise our midfield for failing to control possession against the big teams when José sets us up to let the opposition have it and then break on the counter. Under van Gaal we've shown we can keep hold of the ball with the midfield we have without Pogba against some of the big teams in the league. Not to Barcelona's extent, but still.

Good player. I really hope we give Fellani a farewell this summer an having CM options of Pogba/Herrera/new CM/Pereira/Carrick for next season.

I'm thinking the same. Maybe two midfielders, I don't know. The "new CM" for me would be someone like Romeu thus allowing Herrera further forward and Pogba license to roam. I think he'd be a great understudy to Carrick, with Carrick getting games every now and then. Before his Granada loan I was unsure whether Pereira had what it took to make it here but I've been pleasantly surprised by him and am looking forward to seeing how he does next year.

Anyway, I don't think Fellaini will be shown the door next year and, whilst I don't particularly care for him as a player, he's shown he can be of some worth. He's a different option.

 

[Akshay]

What he is saying if a team controls the match in midfield through possession then it's very unlikely that the opposing teams midfield has out classed the team that dominated/controlled midfield in possession.

Now most teams do strive for possession (tactically some don't but normally its selected games designed to counter). Plus yes a midfielder can have a better game without possession but this is also less common.

I'd say in the PL its quite common for teams to not strive for more possession and instead play on the counter. It's also the tactic we've chosen to employ against most big teams this season.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

What he is saying if a team controls the match in midfield through possession then it's very unlikely that the opposing teams midfield has out classed the team that dominated/controlled midfield in possession.

Now most teams do strive for possession (tactically some don't but normally its selected games designed to counter). Plus yes a midfielder can have a better game without possession but this is also less common.

Finally - someone gets the general idea.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I'd say in the PL its quite common for teams to not strive for more possession and instead play on the counter. It's also the tactic we've chosen to employ against most big teams this season.

Do you agree that a team that conceded possession to you in midfield outclassed you in midfield?

 

[Akshay]

Do you agree that a team that conceded possession to you in midfield outclassed you in midfield?

I think that whether a team chooses to pursue possession or not does not determine the quality or performances of its midfielders.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I think that whether a team chooses to pursue possession or not does not determine the quality or performances of its midfielders.

Like you rightly said "It's also the tactic we've chosen to employ against most big teams this season." i.e. it is not our preferred choice else we would use it against everyone.

Every team pursues increased possession. It is when it seems unattainable that alternate methods are proffered.

If your midfielders were better, you will not need the alternate option.

 

[gr3yham3]

I think that whether a team chooses to pursue possession or not does not determine the quality or performances of its midfielders.

Exactly. It is all down to the coach's instructions - at the end of the day, if the coach says "Let them have the ball and hit them on the break" and we win the games, hasn't the midfield done it's job? If one says that we here hanging on by the skin of our teeth with numerous world-class De Gea saves and scrape a 1-0 win, sure, we were outclassed and lost control in midfield. However, I don't think that happened for the Spurs game. Also mentioned was that Herrera was our no.6 in that Chelsea loss, but remember he was doing it all alone as it was in a midfield two with no other DM to help him out since Pogba was wandering around trying to create, it was an away game to the now-champions of England, and to be honest, I don't think we were doing too badly till Smalling's brainfart that allowed Pedro to score.

Still, no one has answered the question as to WHO they want to bring in to replace or improve on what Herrera currently brings to the team.

 

[Lawman]

Still, no one has answered the question as to WHO they want to bring in to replace or improve on what Herrera currently brings to the team.

It's not just what Herrera brings to the team its more what he doesn't bring (that's not a criticism just a fact in my eyes) I'd like someone with legs to run past the striker or get into the box to add a goal threat as we miss this weapon in midfield (the bursting into a box bit). To many times have we got wide or broke forward and Herrera Pogba or Carrick have never looked like ghosting into the box.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Exactly. It is all down to the coach's instructions - at the end of the day, if the coach says "Let them have the ball and hit them on the break" and we win the games, hasn't the midfield done it's job? If one says that we here hanging on by the skin of our teeth with numerous world-class De Gea saves and scrape a 1-0 win, sure, we were outclassed and lost control in midfield. However, I don't think that happened for the Spurs game. Also mentioned was that Herrera was our no.6 in that Chelsea loss, but remember he was doing it all alone as it was in a midfield two with no other DM to help him out since Pogba was wandering around trying to create, it was an away game to the now-champions of England, and to be honest, I don't think we were doing too badly till Smalling's brainfart that allowed Pedro to score.

Still, no one has answered the question as to WHO they want to bring in to replace what Herrera currently brings to the team.

Veratti and Naiggolan are two that are curtrently better than Herrera. Others like Keita and Kovacic are younger and have shown higher potential.

I am fine with Herrera for now and expect he will be out of the base 4-2-3-1 best XI next season but feature as sub and against stronger midfield when we play 4-3-3

 

[cheeky_backheel]

It's not just what Herrera brings to the team its more what he doesn't bring (that's not a criticism just a fact in my eyes) I'd like someone with legs to run past the striker or get into the box to add a goal threat as we miss this weapon in midfield (the bursting into a box bit). To many times have we got wide or broke forward and Herrera Pogba or Carrick have never looked like ghosting into the box.

Unless you want to see a ghost for real, do not ask old man Carrick to ghost into any box

 

[Akshay]

Like you rightly said "It's also the tactic we've chosen to employ against most big teams this season." i.e. it is not our preferred choice else we would use it against everyone.

Every team pursues increased possession. It is when it seems unattainable that alternate methods are proffered.

If your midfielders were better, you will not need the alternate option.

That's not how it works. You can't employ a pure counter attacking system against a team interested only in a draw, it will get you nowhere. In the big games, most of the time both teams are looking to win so you have more options. Counter-attacking isn't some kind of last resort tactic you are forced into due to having no other choice.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

That's not how it works. You can't employ a pure counter attacking system against a team interested only in a draw, it will get you nowhere. In the big games, most of the time both teams are looking to win so you have more options. Counter-attacking isn't some kind of last resort tactic you are forced into due to having no other choice.

You need to make up your mind - are you striving for possession or plan to cede possession to counter attack?

The answer is irrelevant as that question wouldnt come up if the opposition was weaker and that is my point.

 

[gr3yham3]

It's not just what Herrera brings to the team its more what he doesn't bring (that's not a criticism just a fact in my eyes) I'd like someone with legs to run past the striker or get into the box to add a goal threat as we miss this weapon in midfield (the bursting into a box bit). To many times have we got wide or broke forward and Herrera Pogba or Carrick have never looked like ghosting into the box.

But we don't know if this lack of 'bursting into the box' is a tactical instruction, or really a lack of energy from the midfielders? And Herrera has 3 goals and 11 assists this season - good numbers for someone whose main role so far is to press, close down, win back possession and pass it on quickly. Put in a younger and more mobile no.6 like Fabinho in the team next season, allowing Pogba and Herrera a little more space to push forward, and I am sure we will see more of these runs into the box.

Veratti and Naiggolan are two that are curtrently better than Herrera. Others like Keita and Kovacic are younger and have shown higher potential.

I am fine with Herrera for now and expect he will be out of the base 4-2-3-1 best XI next season but feature as sub and against stronger midfield when we play 4-3-3

PSG will never sell Veratti, Nainggolan does less defensive work if you just base on stats, and he seldom plays as a no.6 too. Keita seems great for RB Leipzig, but there is not confirmation that he will be at that same level in the EPL, while Kovacic is not a player who I will trust with man-marking an opponent out of the game since he is more of a CM in the Pogba mould I feel.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

PSG will never sell Veratti, Nainggolan does less defensive work if you just base on stats, and he seldom plays as a no.6 too. Keita seems great for RB Leipzig, but there is not confirmation that he will be at that same level in the EPL, while Kovacic is not a player who I will trust with man-marking an opponent out of the game since he is more of a CM in the Pogba mould I feel.

If you want exactly the same player, then you keep your current player.

 

[roonster09]

Do you agree that a team that conceded possession to you in midfield outclassed you in midfield?

No, that's a very very lazy opinion.

Chelsea 3-1 ManUtd (Eto'o hattrick, we had 56% possession)
ManUtd 0-0 Chelsea (55% possession)
ManUtd 0-3 Liverpool (Moyes season, we had 48% possession, you think we were equal to them in that game?)
Liverpool 1-0 ManUtd (57% possession)
ManUtd 0-3 ManCity (Moyes season, 53% possession)
ManCity 4-1 ManUtd (Moyes season, 58% possession)

So we outclassed City midfield twice and Chelsea midfield twice in Moyes season? Also equal once with Liverpool and outclassed them once in that season?
Moyes must be Pep, outclassing every top midfields in the league.

Then under Van Gaal.
Everton 3-0 ManUtd (65% possession)
Spurs 3-0 ManUtd (53% possession)
Arsenal 3-0 ManUtd (62% possession)

You think we had control in any of the game?

Also when Chelsea won 4-0 we had 56% possession, you think we controlled that game?

More possession = control is a very lazy opinion.

 

[ivaldo]

As opposed to Kante who is a great passer? Jesus. Then again you also can't seem to accept Herrera's a big game player.

Some people in this thread need to get a grip. Herrera has been one of the best midfielders in the league and there's not one I think could perform in the different roles he's had to perform this season. Would love to know which other midfielder in the league could mark Hazard out of a match and also create a goal with a world class through ball.

He'll throw random, baseless criticisms with the hope something sticks. Doesn't turn up in big games, isn't creative, isn't great defensively etc. etc. You'll prove he's wrong and he'll move on to the next one.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

No, that's a very very lazy opinion.

Chelsea 3-1 ManUtd (Eto'o hattrick, we had 56% possession)
ManUtd 0-0 Chelsea (55% possession)
ManUtd 0-3 Liverpool (Moyes season, we had 48% possession, you think we were equal to them in that game?)
Liverpool 1-0 ManUtd (57% possession)
ManUtd 0-3 ManCity (Moyes season, 53% possession)
ManCity 4-1 ManUtd (Moyes season, 58% possession)

So we outclassed City midfield twice and Chelsea midfield twice in Moyes season? Also equal once with Liverpool and outclassed them once in that season?
Moyes must be Pep, outclassing every top midfields in the league.

Then under Van Gaal.
Everton 3-0 ManUtd (65% possession)
Spurs 3-0 ManUtd (53% possession)
Arsenal 3-0 ManUtd (62% possession)

You think we had control in any of the game?

Also when Chelsea won 4-0 we had 56% possession, you think we controlled that game?

More possession = control is a very lazy opinion.

and that proves my point

 

[Lawman]

But we don't know if this lack of 'bursting into the box' is a tactical instruction, or really a lack of energy from the midfielders? And Herrera has 3 goals and 11 assists this season - good numbers for someone whose main role so far is to press, close down, win back possession and pass it on quickly. Put in a younger and more mobile no.6 like Fabinho in the team next season, allowing Pogba and Herrera a little more space to push forward, and I am sure we will see more of these runs into the box.



PSG will never sell Veratti, Nainggolan does less defensive work if you just base on stats, and he seldom plays as a no.6 too. Keita seems great for RB Leipzig, but there is not confirmation that he will be at that same level in the EPL, while Kovacic is not a player who I will trust with man-marking an opponent out of the game since he is more of a CM in the Pogba mould I feel.

To be fair we have did this twice only.

 

[Lawman]

He'll throw random, baseless criticisms with the hope something sticks. Doesn't turn up in big games, isn't creative, isn't great defensively etc. etc. You'll prove he's wrong and he'll move on to the next one.

What a lot of tosh, I've stated Herrera is a decent player but someone who is not good enough to play as a 6 regularly and if he's an 8 we should aim higher. Don't throw accusations or make this one personal @ivaldo as I quite like your chat but I'm well within my right to have a different view on Herrera and this last post is just a slant.

 

[roonster09]

and that proves my point

Prove your point? So you think Moyes team outclassed all the top team midfields?

The "No" part is for your entire argument that team with more possession = controls the game.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Prove your point? So you think Moyes team outclassed all the top team midfields?

The "No" part is for your entire argument that team with more possession = controls the game.

ok then you are answering the wrong question.

Still, if possession ~=control, then state how you can control a game without controlling the ball?

 

[roonster09]

ok then you are answering the wrong question.

Still, if possession ~=control, then state how you can control a game without controlling the ball?

You can control the game in many ways, You can make the team play with the ball in the zones where it doesn't hurt your team, you can make team look like bunch of clueless guys knocking the ball in front of opponents when opponents are very much organised. You can control the game by being organised, winning the ball and hitting on the counter, something Madrid were exceptionally good at under Jose.

Just because the team has ball doesn't mean they control the game.

Now you explain, do you really believe we controlled the games when Moyes was in charge? When we were losing games 3-0s and 4-0s? Or Did you believe we controlled the game when Arsenal and Spurs ripped us apart 3-0 last season?

Best example is Arsenal, they always had more possession because teams knew how to beat them. They didn't control anything.

 

[Varun]

ok then you are answering the wrong question.

Still, if possession ~=control, then state how you can control a game without controlling the ball?

Controlling the game is about ensuring the game goes how you want it to go, it has nothing to do with controlling the ball.

For instance, if team X's plan for the game is to entice team Y deep into their half without pressing before it with the intention of taking the ball and releasing it directly with pace to a fast forward line thus creating various 3 v 3, 2 v 2 situations, they will willingly cede the ball as that's what's needed to make the game go as they want. Now, if they do this with success in the game, Team X controlled the game because it went exactly how they wanted it to go. In such a plan, the opponent team is almost certainly going to have 60%+ possession. Again, that's exactly what team A wanted and was a critical component of them controlling the game.

Controlling the ball /= Controlling the game.