The tempo of our play

[NK86]

Why is it so slow and laborious? We have spent so much money and yet our team moves the ball hilariously slowly compared to some of the other top teams around.

I am not comparing us to the Real Madrid and Barcelona teams of this world but even compared to City and Liverpool we seem to be very slow in our build up. City may have the better attackers but our attack, at least on paper, is better than Liverpool yet their attacking play is far more potent and easier on the eye than ours.

So what is the reason? Poor coaching, players not doing the basic things correctly, fear of being caught out of position? I just cannot pin point the main cause for why we struggle to break down teams by quick and incisive passing regularly.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Some of our players like to hold on to the ball longer than they need to.

 

[Art]

Our tempo when playing in a midfield 2 is fine. Today we had Herrera running into Matic and Pogba's position and Pogba running into Matic's position creating a vaccum (which is normally occupied by either Mkhi or Mata in a midfield two) in the no 10 position thereby leading to us passing sideways for most of the game followed by a long ball to our big man upfront. I think Jose got his tactics slightly wrong this game.

 

[Dobbs]

I wouldn't take too much from today. That's an international hangover at play.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Pogba can delay the play a lot, but in other times speeds it up a lot. Its strange.

 

[NK86]

Our tempo when playing in a midfield 2 is fine. Today we had Herrera running into Matic and Pogba's position and Pogba running into Matic's position creating a vaccum (which is normally occupied by either Mkhi or Mata in a midfield two) in the no 10 position thereby leading to us passing sideways for most of the game followed by a long ball to our big man upfront. I think Jose got his tactics slightly wrong this game.

I don't think so that's the case. Even against Leicester our play was sluggish. Compare that to City and you will see their passing is crisp and slick.

 

[settembrini]

I thought we were fine in the first three games and much worse today because of the changes we made to our team.

 

[izec]

It comes from the management.

Liverpool and City play more fluid and attacking football, because Pep insists on that and Klopp wants his team to press and counter attack fast once they have the ball to hit the opponent. Mourinho is more pragmatic and safe in that regard.

 

[redIndianDevil]

It's down to the manager and the coaches to improve our tempo and passing, but I'm yet to see any improvement despite this being Mourinho's second season. Right now I would say we are a better version of what Moyes was trying to produce in his first season, a defensively strong team. We got lucky so far with our fixtures IMO, coz I don't see us doing better against the likes of City and Liverpool(we will try to park the bus and nick one off the counter).

 

[Adisa]

Will wait for Everton before getting worried.

 

[Rajma]

Some of our players like to hold on to the ball longer than they need to.

This. Pogba, Rash, and Martial all prone to that.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

I wouldn't take too much from today. That's an international hangover at play.

This.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's been like this for awhile. Pass laboriously side to side because the team is unable to string together moves through central areas.

 

[I Believe]

I thought we were fine in the first three games and much worse today because of the changes we made to our team.

Spot on!

To be much 'slicker' etc. we need players to adopt more one or two touch football as the normal mode of operation, rather than now and again. This requires certain ball skills obviously but it also involves players continuously looking for and creating space, not just now and again, that's one of the reasons for not changing a winning team, unless injuries require it.

Rotation is important throughout mid to late season, but for the first 10 games of a season if you have a winning team capable of adapting itself, this should be kept intact as far as possible, so that the one touch stuff can be attempted with confidence because players are use to what their colleagues are likely to do and the positions they take up.

 

[Carolina Red]

I wouldn't take too much from today. That's an international hangover at play.

Good point. Jose pointed out yesterday that he wasn't able to have the whole team together in its entirety until either Thursday or yesterday.

 

[NK86]

Agreed it's been the case for a few years now going back to Fergie's last few seasons. However we have invested heavily since then in players who have shown to be capable of playing that style of high tempo fluid football. But in this team they aren't able to do so. Shows it's more to do with instructions than ability.

 

[NK86]

Good point. Jose pointed out yesterday that he wasn't able to have the whole team together in its entirety until either Thursday or yesterday.

But it's not just this game. We have been average most times so not having the players till late one game was not the difference maker.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Probably because Mourinho doesn't trust the back four to keep their concentration levels and their composure at a good level, if the game opens up and turns into an end to end contest. We're better on the counter this season, we've witnessed that. And there hasn't been a single league game thus far in which we din't have full control of the proceedings in the midfield battle. We can raise the tempo but we seem set up to snuff the life out of the opposition by keeping the ball and we know that, when we score first, we're a very tough proposition for any opponent out there.

City look better because they have better options in the creativity department when it comes to opening up tight defenses. KdB and Silva add many things to City's midfield when it comes to passing the ball through the lines in the build up phase. Liverpool have their pressing tactics in the midfield which allow them to release Mane and Salah with space to run with the ball. But all of this comes at the expense of defensive stability. City under Guardiola are very susceptible to counter attacks while Liverpool allow too many spaces between their lines open for exploitation. And when City's attack is off and Liverpool's midfield is burnt out, they collapse like a house of cards. And a defeat is a defeat whether it's easy on the eye or not.

I think we're on the right path in general, we just need to work out a better plan against organized defenses besides set pieces.

 

[LoneStar]

Our tempo when playing in a midfield 2 is fine. Today we had Herrera running into Matic and Pogba's position and Pogba running into Matic's position creating a vaccum (which is normally occupied by either Mkhi or Mata in a midfield two) in the no 10 position thereby leading to us passing sideways for most of the game followed by a long ball to our big man upfront. I think Jose got his tactics slightly wrong this game.

Yup. The midfield was very crowded today. Think we play more with better tempo in a 4231.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Every manager has his ideas, his vision. Klopp has run and gun, pep has tiki taka, mourinho has this. At home it is dominant play and on away games it is slow and slightly defensive. We are hard to beat team . We are not playing " for the fans", we are not playing for goal more.
Mourinho is playing on safe. It works. Most of times....

 

[Random Task]

Why is it so slow and laborious? We have spent so much money and yet our team moves the ball hilariously slowly compared to some of the other top teams around.

I am not comparing us to the Real Madrid and Barcelona teams of this world but even compared to City and Liverpool we seem to be very slow in our build up. City may have the better attackers but our attack, at least on paper, is better than Liverpool yet their attacking play is far more potent and easier on the eye than ours.

So what is the reason? Poor coaching, players not doing the basic things correctly, fear of being caught out of position? I just cannot pin point the main cause for why we struggle to break down teams by quick and incisive passing regularly.

You're reading far to much in to todays game. Playing away at Stoke is a tough game at the best of times but it becomes an infinitely more difficult task playing it whilst nursing an International hangover. lethargic and incohesive is the best description I could muster up for todays performance and I put that down to International duty.

Next week we'll take Everton and Rooney to the cleaners and the narrative will have turned on it's head again.

 

[el3mel]

The tempo was very good in the previous 3 matches. Changing to 3 midfield today was the reason the tempo becomes suddenly so slow and tumescent. Having both Herrera and Matic in the midfield makes it more unnecessarily defensive. Lukaku is left isolated in front because of no one playing behind him and thus we're forced to play long balls and our FBs are making the matters worse.

 

[Marcky411]

It's been like this for awhile. Pass laboriously side to side because the team is unable to string together moves through central areas.

I think the problem is we are continually trying to go through the center and have no width. The players playing out wide keep cutting in instead of going to the byline, thus not spreading defenses.

 

[AdnanRED]

Maybe because our team is still not well balanced. We dont have a real left back and we dont have a real winger on the right. Darmian cant even cut back or really help building up play on the left and Mkhi for me is a 10, he can't really beat a player on the wing because he isnt superfast nor skillful or strong so we play safe most times. I do think we should give Rashford a run on the right and Martial left and just sacrifice herrera with Mkhi behind Lukaku. Both Rashford and Martial are too good to be sitting on the bench.

 

[Will Absolute]

Some of our players like to hold on to the ball longer than they need to.

I thought Mourinho might address the issue, but if anything, his approach, apart from the purchase from Matic, has made things worse, or at least made the problem more difficult to solve. A big donkey up front doesn't help, and Pogba has added another self-indulgent brick to the wall.

Even one player who hogs the ball can compromise the fluency of a team's play, and we've got way more than one - Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Valencia... Then we have our lightweights who play a lot of nothing balls because they're afraid of being dispossessed - Mata, Herrera.. It's hard to see any light at the end of this particular tunnel.

If we win the league with such a curate's egg of a side, it'll be a hell of an achievement for the manager.

 

[SwansonsTache]

It's been like this for awhile. Pass laboriously side to side because the team is unable to string together moves through central areas.

That is because teams can allow to congest central areas against us due to our absolute lack of width from attacking fb's or wingers.

So much of our problems stems from the lack of fb's. I know we got Valencia but teams hardly worry about his delivery and involvement in the final third. Compare that to Mendy today that during one match put in more dangerous crosses than our fb's manage combined in about 10 games.

 

[izec]

That is because teams can allow to congest central areas against us due to our absolute lack of width from attacking fb's or wingers.

So much of our problems stems from the lack of fb's. I know we got Valencia but teams hardly worry about his delivery and involvement in the final third. Compare that to Mendy today that during one match put in more dangerous crosses than our fb's manage combined in about 10 games.

Pretty much. Aurier as RB, Mendy as LB and Perisic on the wing would have transformed our team completely and would make some room in midfield + deliver fantastic balls into dangerous zones/bomb forward.

 

[GM K]

It comes from the management.

Liverpool and City play more fluid and attacking football, because Pep insists on that and Klopp wants his team to press and counter attack fast once they have the ball to hit the opponent. Mourinho is more pragmatic and safe in that regard.

Honestly, I didn't see Liverpool and City play any fluid or attacking football today until Liverpool lost their most important attacker. It was after then that City started playing something close to fluid football.

 

[izec]

Honestly, I didn't see Liverpool and City play any fluid or attacking football today until Liverpool lost their most important attacker. It was after then that City started playing something close to fluid football.

fluid was the wrong word, but much faster than we do. Liverpool once won the ball played fast to mane and Salah, who wasted many chances. But they play is faster than ours, leaves them also a bit exposed at the back at times. Against Arsenal they totally dominated and outplayed them. City need time and will get there, they play good football at times, offensive is not their problem once all the players gel and Pep finds his best team.

 

[GM K]

fluid was the wrong word, but much faster than we do. Liverpool once won the ball played fast to mane and Salah, who wasted many chances. But they play is faster than ours, leaves them also a bit exposed at the back at times. Against Arsenal they totally dominated and outplayed them. City need time and will get there, they play good football at times, offensive is not their problem once all the players gel and Pep finds his best team.

Good points.

 

[Toad]

the first dropped points of the season and sor. God you already doubting our paying style It was a difficult game and I am happy with the pint. Worry had a few drinks tonight and oreetynlashd so how this do t come across wrong.

 

[el3mel]

fluid was the wrong word, but much faster than we do. Liverpool once won the ball played fast to mane and Salah, who wasted many chances. But they play is faster than ours, leaves them also a bit exposed at the back at times. Against Arsenal they totally dominated and outplayed them. City need time and will get there, they play good football at times, offensive is not their problem once all the players gel and Pep finds his best team.

The problem isn't in the way we play for the slightest. In all 4 games we always press and always cut the ball and look for the counter. What makes you see Liverpool doing it fast and us not lies in a certain aspect and that is our players decision making. We have no problem cutting the ball and counter attacking fast but Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku and Mikhi decision making when the ball in the leg is erratic. When their decision making is good, you see exactly as you saw against Swansea : cut the ball 3 times, countered 3 times and here we go with 3 goals.

The decision making today was pretty poor whenever our attackers got the ball they chose the worst decision. Nothing to be related to our style.

 

[Theonas]

What you are talking about is the most difficult thing in football today. Every team is perfectly equipped to close down the space and stifle attacks that it makes the job of the attacking team much harder. That is why even Fergie in his last years did not have a fast moving coherent unit. The teams who can do that more efficiently like City can do so because their coaching and training work is oriented towards to it much more than we are, the downside is that it leaves them more vulnerable at the back than a team like us. Mourinho does not work like that, he prefers stability with the upside being a more solid finished product. Fans have to accept that offensive fluidity and speed need more time and practice than it did before and during that process of honing it, defensive frailties will be the price to pay. We picked a manager who does not work like that, it doesn't mean he can't win but it means we have to accept being slower and less slick.

 

[prtk0811]

Yes our Ball circulation tempo and ball circulation strategy needs to improve a lot. We dont pass the ball to penetrate defenses , its way to mechanical as we are always forced to find space on the sides , where our full backs and wingers are ineffetive to create overlaps and put in a decent accurate cross.

 

[prtk0811]

What you are talking about is the most difficult thing in football today. Every team is perfectly equipped to close down the space and stifle attacks that it makes the job of the attacking team much harder. That is why even Fergie in his last years did not have a fast moving coherent unit. The teams who can do that more efficiently like City can do so because their coaching and training work is oriented towards to it much more than we are, the downside is that it leaves them more vulnerable at the back than a team like us. Mourinho does not work like that, he prefers stability with the upside being a more solid finished product. Fans have to accept that offensive fluidity and speed need more time and practice than it did before and during that process of honing it, defensive frailties will be the price to pay. We picked a manager who does not work like that, it doesn't mean he can't win but it means we have to accept being slower and less slick.

Yes but i also belive it is because of the lack of creativity in the side , and the wingers and full backs inability to take on their man and beat them via skills and overlaps. I am surpred to see the boards satisfaction to put an unbalanced team for 3 straight years. We have been missing creative wingers for a long long time since we let go di maria. Its the short shortsightedness of the board to make that happen in the market.

Also Pogba has to do a lot more in these games in mid 3 , his positioning and movement is very mediocre and its his job to link up defense to attack in a mid 3 which he fails to do so. Herrera also had an off day today lacking tenacity to press.

 

[Raoul]

We were slower and more languid today - also seemed a bit less focused than against the first couple of teams.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Our tempo when playing in a midfield 2 is fine. Today we had Herrera running into Matic and Pogba's position and Pogba running into Matic's position creating a vaccum (which is normally occupied by either Mkhi or Mata in a midfield two) in the no 10 position thereby leading to us passing sideways for most of the game followed by a long ball to our big man upfront. I think Jose got his tactics slightly wrong this game.

I wouldn't take too much from today. That's an international hangover at play.

Pretty much this.


433 vs 4231, the latter is a lot more of a natural fit for our team with the personnel we have at José's disposal. Doesn't mean we can't play a 433 as it's understandable going up against certain teams like Stoke but was a bit discombobulated and to be fair the first time the formation was used this season. And José was right post game saying this was a game in which Fellaini would've been very effective at the 10 spot but wasn't available thus Herrera played and caused a bit of confusion in the midfield amongst the midfield3.

...and if anything midfield wasn't the biggest issue, it was clearly the defense. Valencia was the only defender with a successful tackle in the first half and that pretty much says it all. Definitely an off game for that backline. Happens.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Our passing is dire from back to front. Can't expect more from team that has one elite passer.

 

[NK86]

Our passing is dire from back to front. Can't expect more from team that has one elite passer.

I don't think our players are worse than that Liverpool or Chelsea have, but when you see them and us you realize that there seems to be this lack of understanding or coaching/practice which is perhaps missing.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Our tempo was murders by playing Pogba as a 10 and restricting Herrera in a 4-2-3-1 shape. Had we played a straight 4-3-3 with two 8 we'd have been better