Are we finally back to where Fergie left us?

Dir Wangem

New Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
1,518
Location
Norway
Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily saying that our current team is as good as the team that won the league in 2013.

____________________________________________________________________

After 17 games we're almost done with half the season. Things have clearly gotten better, but how does Mourinho's team actually compare to Fergie's teams post-Ronaldo(2009-2013)? This is the current situation:

Points: 38
Goal difference: +26

And this is Fergie's average stats at the same stage(post-Ronaldo):

Points: 39.5
Goal difference: +23

____________________________________________________________________

In terms of points and goal difference, we're just about were we could expect to be back in the Fergie days. Other similarities:

- Defensively stable, while still occasionally conceding silly goals.
- Generally full control over lower and mid-table teams. Each game is all about scoring that first goal, and then it's done.
- City is both our achilles heel and main rival. Poor results.
- Careful approach when playing against Pool on Anfield.
- Stamford Bridge is still a head-scratcher for us.
- Good results are semi-expected against Tottenham and Arsenal.
 
Last edited:

Damien

Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin)
Staff
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
97,066
Location
Also won Best Gif/Photoshop 2021
Wouldn't say so yet. Need to see how we do over the next couple of seasons but two trophies last season and our current position is pretty damn good. Would want us to do better against the top teams (in latter Fergie years and the two Van Gaal years we tended to get around 18 points from 30) but we're getting there (7 points in first half of season compared to 5 last season - will probably end on 12-14 compared to 10 last season) and remains to be seen how we do in the CL but our record in Fergie's last two seasons there was pretty poor (knocked out in group stages in 2011/12 and knocked out in last 16 in 2012/13 though we did face Cakir).
 

unitedforeveral

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
417
Wouldn't say so yet. Need to see how we do over the next couple of seasons but two trophies last season and our current position is pretty damn good. Would want us to do better against the top teams (in latter Fergie years and the two Van Gaal years we tended to get around 18 points from 30) but we're getting there (7 points in first half of season compared to 5 last season - will probably end on 12-14 compared to 10 last season) and remains to be seen how we do in the CL but our record in Fergie's last two seasons there was pretty poor (knocked out in group stages in 2011/12 and knocked out in last 16 in 2012/13 though we did face Cakir).
Well put.
 

SalfordRed18

Netflix and avocado, no chill
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
13,927
Location
Salford
Supports
Ashwood City FC
Won a few trophies the previous seasons, solidly 2nd with enough points that would see us 1st in previous seasons. Progressed to champions league knockouts without really ever breaking a sweat despite a couple results.

Id say we're there or thereabouts. Arguably even better in fact, as this united team i think would storm the league in later/post fergie years.
 

youngrell

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
3,544
Location
South Wales
Stats are looking good and the team is obviously in better shape than it has been in recent years, but I still don't go into every match with the unwavering confidence I did during SAF time.

Even if I expect us to win a game, I'm never completely shocked when we don't.
 

haram

New Member
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
12,921
Would be even better if not for the Pogba injury. We are doing well, City are just doing better.
 

ti vu

Full Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
12,799
No. We may have potential to surpass at the point where SAF left, but at the moment, experience, mentality, we've distance to cover. Style wise, we're very similar in that we're not the most pleasant to the eye while at the time still being exciting about pace & power.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,966
Location
Hollywood CA
We're not nearly back to where Fergie left us because we don't play with the positive SAF ethos. We are still fairly negative and defensively oriented, which sort of suggests we may never return to the old ways but instead, if we do manage to win a league or CL, it will be in classic Mourinho style.
 

Womp

idiot
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
9,262
Location
Australia
We're not nearly back to where Fergie left us because we don't play with the positive SAF ethos. We are still fairly negative and defensively oriented, which sort of suggests we may never return to the old ways but instead, if we do manage to win a league or CL, it will be in classic Mourinho style.
Fergie's last team were pragmatic too. We'd rely heavily on RVP and would look to and counter in some of the big games (Madrid in the CL etc.) In terms of style I think we're pretty similar.
 

AkaAkuma

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
3,203
We're not nearly back to where Fergie left us because we don't play with the positive SAF ethos. We are still fairly negative and defensively oriented, which sort of suggests we may never return to the old ways but instead, if we do manage to win a league or CL, it will be in classic Mourinho style.
I think that's a pessimistic view, in a season and a half he's turned us around - the mentality is there, defensive strength, who's to say that he can't add more attacking threat with a few more players.
 

Blue always red

Full Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
3,596
Location
Manchester
I'd agree with others in the sense that I don't feel we're unbeatable anymore, whereas under SAF I'd expect us to win everytime. However, the points comparison is interesting, as the league has definitely improved now. Be interesting to see how the 11/12 team would do against this lot.
 

Bojan11

Full Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
33,113
Wouldn't say so yet. Need to see how we do over the next couple of seasons but two trophies last season and our current position is pretty damn good. Would want us to do better against the top teams (in latter Fergie years and the two Van Gaal years we tended to get around 18 points from 30) but we're getting there (7 points in first half of season compared to 5 last season - will probably end on 12-14 compared to 10 last season) and remains to be seen how we do in the CL but our record in Fergie's last two seasons there was pretty poor (knocked out in group stages in 2011/12 and knocked out in last 16 in 2012/13 though we did face Cakir).
In fairness like I said previously Fergie didn’t come up against the calibre of coaches Mourinho has.

You have Conte who was the best manager in Italy. Guardiola who is one of the best in the world. Klopp who was one of the best in Germany. Potch ain’t half bad too. Then you have Wenger...

When Wenger came he caused Fergie problems the first few years and so did Mourinho.

I’m not saying Fergie had it easy. But he certainly didn’t have to contend with the amount of great coaches that Mourinho has had to.

The same can be said for Van Gaal. Mourinho was the only world class coach in the league. Pellegrinni and Rodgers were not as good as Pep or Klopp. Then you have Potch improving Spurs.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

Creator of Player Performance threads
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
26,844
Location
Player Performance Threads
Wouldn't say so yet. Need to see how we do over the next couple of seasons but two trophies last season and our current position is pretty damn good. Would want us to do better against the top teams (in latter Fergie years and the two Van Gaal years we tended to get around 18 points from 30) but we're getting there (7 points in first half of season compared to 5 last season - will probably end on 12-14 compared to 10 last season) and remains to be seen how we do in the CL but our record in Fergie's last two seasons there was pretty poor (knocked out in group stages in 2011/12 and knocked out in last 16 in 2012/13 though we did face Cakir).
Yeah, the improvement from last season has been taken for granted a bit. We're definitely on the right track thus far, what's really been encouraging is the individual improvements from players such as; Martial, Rashford and Pogba compared to how they were last season. They've clearly bought into Mourinho and have shown great desire to improve. It's hard to appreciate these types of things right now but it's clear to see.

The style is different but it genuinely feels like we have a sense of direction that could actually win big things, I didn't feel that with Van Gaal or Moyes. Room for improvement of course but all in all, I'm happy.
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
18,444
Supports
Mejbri
Didn't we improve in the 2nd half of seasons normally, under Fergie?
 

Yakuza_devils

Full Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Messages
2,841
In any normal season, we will be challenging for the league. Unfortunately, this season City is having the best run in history.

I fear that it will be even harder to compete against them in future. They are sponsored by a country and looking to add Sanchez and a defender in January and unlimited funds in the summer. They also have one of the best coach in the world.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
119,444
Location
Dublin, Ireland
I think that's a pessimistic view, in a season and a half he's turned us around - the mentality is there, defensive strength, who's to say that he can't add more attacking threat with a few more players.
Well the question was about now, not when we add more new players
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,511
Location
St. Helens
- Generally full control over lower and mid-table teams. Each game is all about scoring that first goal, and then it's done.
I think this is wrong.

We're much more like the Bournemouth game with very little control in a game over the majority of teams. De Gea usually has to pull out a decent save at least once against 95% of the teams we face.

We actually rarely controlled games in the latter few years under SAF either mind. We'd get an earlyish goal and then step off the gas and allow them back into it forcing a rush at the end of the game to win more comfortably. It only highlighted how effective at doing 'enough' we were when SAF retired and we couldn't do that anymore.

But in that sense we're still doing it with annoying regularity so maybe we're more like we were then than I realised.
 

Camilo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
2,924
Stats are looking good and the team is obviously in better shape than it has been in recent years, but I still don't go into every match with the unwavering confidence I did during SAF time.

Even if I expect us to win a game, I'm never completely shocked when we don't.
Pretty much how I feel - we don't have any real ability to break teams down, so unless they make the mistake and give us an opportunity (which of course will happen a few times in most matches) we don't really create anything...

Contrast that to Fergies time I always felt we were more fragile as a defensive unit, but mentally far more resilient, and more gung-ho in possession - we were going to score, regardess of opposition.

I think if we begin to assert ourselves more we'll be back at a later-Fergie-years level. There's a lot of good going on, just not enough belief.
 

AkaAkuma

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
3,203
Well the question was about now, not when we add more new players
My answer was in response to this:
which sort of suggests we may never return to the old ways
To answer the question, I'd say yes - we are in a position to have strong expectations to challenge for the league (next season and onwards), but know we might fall short. We are also capable of reaching the last 8 of the CL league, with last 4 also a possibility, even winning it if lucky.

I don't think we were the dominant force in the league (save for winning it) when Fergie retired, we had similar expectations to the above. The leagues changed a lot since we last won 3 consecutive titles, the title passes between City, Chelsea and United.
 

ghagua

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,992
We're not nearly back to where Fergie left us because we don't play with the positive SAF ethos. We are still fairly negative and defensively oriented, which sort of suggests we may never return to the old ways but instead, if we do manage to win a league or CL, it will be in classic Mourinho style.
Absolutely. Other than against Barcelona, don't recall ever playing defensive against any English team. Yea we lost a few against the top teams, but we mostly went toe to toe with them
 

AltiUn

likes playing with swords after fantasies
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
23,494
In terms of pure quality I think the squad is in a much healthier state, our best players still have their prime years ahead of them and are relatively young. We have a very strong core of players.

A few things I think that separates us from SAF's team is strong leadership from the experienced players we had in the team, who'd spent their careers winning title after title with us and a strong winning mentality. The will to win we had under SAF is far better than what we have now, under SAF we came from behind a tremendous amount of times to win games in that final season, if Mourinho can instil that mentality into the team I think we'll be as close to our title winning team as we can be.
 

SalfordRed18

Netflix and avocado, no chill
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
13,927
Location
Salford
Supports
Ashwood City FC
This expecting to win every game thing is a bit of bollocks tbh. Fergies penultimate season we went out the champions league in the group stage and was abundantly average in europa league. We'd never "expect" to beat chelsea or even City at that stage, and we'd always have the odd lost to a random team. Not to mention bogey teams like blackburn and middlesborough etc.

Might look back and feel like that, but at the time dont think many united fans "expected" to win every game. I certainly have a similar amount of confidence in this team that i had in fergies post-ronaldo teams. Think Paul Pogba and Matic actually make this team better.

Difference is there was only really ever 2, sometimes 3 teams who could compete for the league, who you'd say is a class apart. Now, next season you wouldnt be surprised at any of United, City, Chelsea, Spurs and to a lesser extent liverpool, and an even lesser extent, arsenal putting in a genuine title bid. The league and teams have gotten better, which makes it harder. This united team would have won the league in previous seasons IMO.
 

Organic Potatoes

Full Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
17,139
Location
85R723R2+R6
Supports
Colorado Rapids
For all the whinging about Jose, the approach we took towards the end of the Sir Alex era could be described as equally pragmatic and boring.
 

MacabbiUnited

Full Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
301
Supports
Maccabi Tel Aviv - Israel
Even if were not there yet, we are as close as we can be. In any normal season we would have been 1st or close 2nd.
We have a strong mentality even when we dont play good(apart the City game). Our players are fighting for the club and to win.

Fergie's last year wasnt a brillaint footballing season. It was fine, but more close to where we are today than to the great Fergie teams of the past. Today we have more talent, unfortunetly the league has gotten a lot more competitive. It's not a 2-3 horse race anymore(well this year it a 1 horse race), but whenever a season starts you can never guess who will be champions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: harms

Marcky411

Full Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Messages
1,089
Stats are looking good and the team is obviously in better shape than it has been in recent years, but I still don't go into every match with the unwavering confidence I did during SAF time.

Even if I expect us to win a game, I'm never completely shocked when we don't.
Fully agree, in Fergie's day you knew exactly what to expect. Now before the game you never know what Utd team is going to show up (performance wise), we have had some good games but a lot of bad performances as well.
 

youngrell

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
3,544
Location
South Wales
Might look back and feel like that, but at the time dont think many united fans "expected" to win every game. I certainly have a similar amount of confidence in this team that i had in fergies post-ronaldo teams. Think Paul Pogba and Matic actually make this team better.
I disagree. The expectation was always to win the match regardless of how tough the competition was, mainly due to Fergie giving us that belief over two decades.

Granted, some games looked a lot tougher than others, but there was always a strong belief we could win even if it wasn't quite should win.
 

RobinHood

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
164
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
In fairness like I said previously Fergie didn’t come up against the calibre of coaches Mourinho has.

You have Conte who was the best manager in Italy. Guardiola who is one of the best in the world. Klopp who was one of the best in Germany. Potch ain’t half bad too. Then you have Wenger...

When Wenger came he caused Fergie problems the first few years and so did Mourinho.

I’m not saying Fergie had it easy. But he certainly didn’t have to contend with the amount of great coaches that Mourinho has had to.

The same can be said for Van Gaal. Mourinho was the only world class coach in the league. Pellegrinni and Rodgers were not as good as Pep or Klopp. Then you have Potch improving Spurs.
This pretty much.

To add to that TV deals have skyrocketed, resulting in more aggressive buying of players by the top clubs since most now have money to burn.

The one thing I do wonder about though is future-planning. When Fergie left, the team was a team of old hardened warriors. Most had a shelf life of one or two more years and the rest were average players. I’m not quite sure what our average age is as a team but I’m guessing it’s lower than that of our last title-winning squad. I’m looking at the likes of Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku, maybe Lingard and Shaw as well. Some of these may not be at the required level yet and some may even eventually just turn out to be squad players, but there seems to be some effort (I dunno if it’s intended) to groom a younger generation.
 

NFM

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
339
The sub-text of this post says it all, 'post-Ronaldo'. Add a Ronaldo-type player into this team and you have a very good proposition. OK its not easy or cheap to find and buy one, and he will not be as good as Ronnie, but there are 'game-changing' players out there. For instance L'Pool have bought Suarez and Salah over recent years for not that much relatively. Salah is not at Ronnies level, but he is exactly the sort of player who regularly does the unexpected that would improve United's attack immensely, and he happens to play from the RW a 'vacancy' in the team.
United can tinker, improving this position or that one, but what will make the difference is the injection of a 'genius'.
And then United would be better than the post-Ronaldo team.
 

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
16,830
Won a few trophies the previous seasons, solidly 2nd with enough points that would see us 1st in previous seasons. Progressed to champions league knockouts without really ever breaking a sweat despite a couple results.

Id say we're there or thereabouts. Arguably even better in fact, as this united team i think would storm the league in later/post fergie years.
That's how I see it.
And it makes it even more of a travesty that we wasted 3 years (with Moyes and LVG), when Jose could've been brought in immediately after SAF left.
Had Jose come in immediately, I am sure we'd have won at least 1 league title if not 2, during the last 4 seasons.
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
24,444
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
No.

The difference is, when Fergie left United had the swagger of being the big dog in the league. All others strove to surpass United. United were the team to beat by default. This season (if you take out City's ridiculous run) is excellent results wise. But to get back to the mentality there was in the SAF era, United need to win the league at least once or twice.

Though you could argue that getting back to that perch isn't possible anymore because of all the new money. The new players are here to stay and the top will be more crowded than it was before.
 

careca07

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
163
So a feature of Sir Alex's football for me was always our blistering starts at home - maybe a sign that we did actually expect to win every game, to steamroller most teams. I realised that these days I usually don't expect us to score at Old Trafford in the first half hour of a game, in fact it's a slight surprise when we do. I did a bit of research to see how often we score at home in the first 30 mins of Premier League games, and whether it has fluctuated much in the past ten years under four different managers.

Interestingly it seems that the more goals we score early on at home in a season, the better we do at the end of it. This is mirrored under Mourinho so far. Less attacking intent the reason perhaps? Even in SAF's seasons, when we scored less goals in the first 30 mins of games, those were the two seasons we finished second rather than first. Could be this is just a reflection of how many goals we score in a season overall, or just form in general, but might be worth a look.


Goals scored before 30 mins, at home (league only) and final position.


07/08 (SAF) Goals: 12 Finished: 1st

8/09 (SAF) Goals: 14 Finished: 1st

09/10 (SAF) Goals: 6 Finished: 2nd

10/11 (SAF) Goals: 12 Finished: 1st

11/12 (SAF) Goals: 9 Finished: 2nd

12/13 (SAF) Goals: 14 Finished: 1st

13/14 (Moyes) Goals: 6 Finished: 7th

14/15 (LVG) Goals: 14 Finished: 4th

15/16 (LVG) Goals: 5 Finished: 5th

16/17 (Mourinho) Goals: 6 Finished: 6th

17/18 (So far, Mourinho) Goals: 3 Finished: ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fortitude

red4ever 79

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
9,530
Location
Czech Republic
Fergie left us as champions. If he had stayed another season we would have been a lot closer than 7th I can tell you that. Two terrible appointments have set us back. Mourinho knows how to win things, but his style of play and behaviour leaves a sour taste
 

jackofalltrades

Full Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
2,137
No, at least not in the league because we were undisputed number 1. At the moment we're hoping City collapse spectacularly while we maintain even better form merely to catch them up. Also, we hoping they don't maintain this kind of form in the coming seasons. If I remember correctly, RM got around 90 points under Pellegrini - and still came second.

Also in the CL it's difficult to imagine us as capable of beating Barcelona, BM, PSG, RM or City. It's a knockout competition so anything is possible but against any of those would we go in as favourites at the moment ? Not for me.
 
Last edited:

Jacko21

Full Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
4,567
Location
Manchester
Well SAF left us with a league title, so I'd say no.

The squad is healthier today and we still appear to be on an upward trajectory, so we're much closer.

Little point comparing the style of football, given that the final couple of seasons under SAF we're bang average - that's when the sideways football started.
 

NFM

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
339
Don't believe this idea that the league has more competition at the top than before. Only 3 teams can win the title before the season started and they are occupying the top 3 spots. Burnley are doing as well as the rest. City have had an abnormal first half, but Peps teams always do, lets see what happens over a full season as the physical toll of playing the high press starts to be felt in Feb/March. Points-wise United are doing as you would expect of a serious challenger.
 

2plus2is4

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
51
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Ze Germans
I think we have the potential to be better than the 2013 Team. But I also think the opposition also improved a lot since then.
 

2 man midfield

Last Man Standing finalist 2021/22
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
45,669
Location
?
Nearly. We're still lacking that aura of invincibility which we were just dripping with before. We were the undisputed big boy, City/Chelsea were just looking after the title for the odd year here or there. Now we seem a lot more fragile, since we've had to climb the whole mountain again.