International Holocaust Remembrance Day

Synco

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To make it cleary before there is misunderstandings as you putting words on my typing that i never typed
So to make clear what you did write, here's a compilation from your first few posts:
I don´t see the right of the Israel state (yes from jewish people) to make any remembrance day and cry over what happened and show that they are the historical mistreated ones
There is a huge hipocrisy within the Israel state and even more when they cry over all the Holocaust, horrific but seeing what they are doing there, they should better shut up.
What I don´t like at all is when the Israel state celebrates it , and all the victimization (the only vicitims are the killed, the survivours and the families) when they are doing the same in a different way, an ethnic/religious cleansing with the suport of the international comunity.
And there was more of this. I stand by it: It takes something to write these things in a thread about Holocaust remembrance.

I don´t segregate Jews. You do. I said clearly the ones (jews or not) that agrees with Israelí state policies with the palestinian conflict
As I said, the ones that supports the stand of Israel state with the way they act with palestinians, being jews or not, for me they fall in the same sack of hypocrisy.
By simple logic, this means you're telling Jews as well if you "accept" their public remembrance of the Holocaust, according to their stance on the ME conflict. Just take a minute to imagine using that kind of litmus test to determine the "legitimacy" of Afro-Americans' commemoration of the International Day for the Remembrance of the Slave Trade and its Abolition. Would be quite horrible, wouldn't it?
 

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Imvho the holocaust is a culmination of many things prior (jealousy towards the jews, impoverished german after the world war, propaganda from the nazi, lack of information, structural cover up, fear towards the nazi, etc).

Hitler alone cant start holocaust, and it really is horrifying the atrocities mankind are capable off
 

4bars

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By simple logic, this means you're telling Jews as well if you "accept" their public remembrance of the Holocaust,
No, I am saying what I said

I don´t think Israel and pro-Israel state (beeing jewish or no) that are the ones that celebrate and reminds us how brutal it was while they are doing what they are doing there, they have the right to remind anything of the holocaust.
Basically. ANYONE, being from Honduras, Namibia, Australia, Israel, etc...being Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Budist, Hinduist, etc...that support, what the Israel state is doing to the palestinian people, have the right to remember and cry over the jewish holocaust or any holocaust for this matter because is an ethnic/religion cleansing sustained and planified along the years past and to come.

And by simple logic, anyone being from Honduras, Namibia, Australia, Israel, etc...being Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Budist, Hinduist, etc... being white, black or asian that supports what the Lybian factions are doing in matters of slave prisons and trade in their territory (with the silence of the UE and even indirectly funding) would not be able to celebrate International Day for the Remembrance of the Slave Trade and its Abolition.

The difference, is that the latest nobody supports it and the former yes and even justifies it


By simple logic, this means you're telling Jews as well if you "accept" their public remembrance of the Holocaust,
And of course I am telling those jews that supports the yada yada Israel State yada yada palestinian conflict that they have no right to celebrate the remembrance of the Holocaust. Being a jew it does not give them 1 free ticket to feck another society because they feck over your ancestors, even if none of them were from your family. It looks like being jew has to be seen like "poor thing, how much you suffer". for some people is like "holocaust" causes the same effect to redneck jewish like "9-11" to redneck american. Get over it, is the past, we have to learn from it, it does not have to be repeated in any circumstances, to any group being religious, ethnic or whatsoever but don´t fecking do it to someone else yourselve for feck sake
 
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Yeah, it's great. The haircut part is one of the most harrowing things I've seen.
Yes, there's a point in the conversation where you can see the barber having to fight with himself to carry on telling what happened. I thought it was incredibly brave to carry on talking.

I did try to watch it again recently but stopped at the part where a survivor talked about how the germans made him work at one of the mass graves and on the 3rd day two bodies he had to bury where his wife and daughter, at that point he asked the german soldiers to kill him and they refused and told he that he was to useful now but would be killed later on.
 
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Nucks

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@Denis79 ok. Problem is, any and all atrocities are not equal. I have my own views on the Zionist state, on the actions of many and various imperialists, a list as long as your arm. But the Holocaust, while it had victims that were not Jews, is a particular case. As that is the subject of this thread, common sense and common decency, and respect for six million overwhelmingly Jewish victims, behoves us to let it rest here. If you want to do what aboutery start it in a different thread. It’s important to remember, and to remember with respect.
Strictly speaking, the Holocaust technically killed about 17 million. 6ish million of which were Jews and this is the most common and narrowist way to encapsulate the victims. The additional 11 million do not account for the total war dead caused by the Nazis warmongering. It does however include all the peoples who were put to death through the various methods the Nazis used during the war. The Jews were the most heinously targeted, as I am unaware of any widespread use of the actual death camps and gas vans to kill Slavs, Poles, or other undesirable ethnic groups.

Mass executions via shooting.
Mobile gas vans.
Work camps combined with starvation diets.
Death camps with gas chambers.

Included in the holocaust figures under the more broad definition, are about 3.5 million Soviet POW's who were largely captured in the opening months of Barbarossa. They were rounded up, marched to forced labor camps, and then fed a couple hundred calories per day until they all dropped dead from starvation. This is how a lot of Jews were killed as well. The terrifying thing, is what Hitler had planned for the occupied areas of Eastern Europe and Eurasia. Mass deportations and exterminations for a bulk of the non-Germanic population of these areas. We're talking about probably about 150+ million people or so who would have fallen under the undesirable tag.
 

Tincanalley

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Strictly speaking, the Holocaust technically killed about 17 million. 6ish million of which were Jews and this is the most common and narrowist way to encapsulate the victims. The additional 11 million do not account for the total war dead caused by the Nazis warmongering. It does however include all the peoples who were put to death through the various methods the Nazis used during the war. The Jews were the most heinously targeted, as I am unaware of any widespread use of the actual death camps and gas vans to kill Slavs, Poles, or other undesirable ethnic groups.

Mass executions via shooting.
Mobile gas vans.
Work camps combined with starvation diets.
Death camps with gas chambers.

Included in the holocaust figures under the more broad definition, are about 3.5 million Soviet POW's who were largely captured in the opening months of Barbarossa. They were rounded up, marched to forced labor camps, and then fed a couple hundred calories per day until they all dropped dead from starvation. This is how a lot of Jews were killed as well. The terrifying thing, is what Hitler had planned for the occupied areas of Eastern Europe and Eurasia. Mass deportations and exterminations for a bulk of the non-Germanic population of these areas. We're talking about probably about 150+ million people or so who would have fallen under the undesirable tag.
Thanks for this.
 

Synco

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The Jews were the most heinously targeted, as I am unaware of any widespread use of the actual death camps and gas vans to kill Slavs, Poles, or other undesirable ethnic groups.
One group of people I'm aware of are Roma and Sinti, who were killed - among many other places - in Auschwitz and Treblinka as well, including in the gas chambers. They were marked for total physical extermination by the Nazis. Disabled and mentally ill people were systematically gassed during the course of Operation T4. But in general your point is true, afaik.
 

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I visited the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp when I was in school, so about 13 years ago, and it was one of the most important, albeit harrowing, trips I've ever been on. It's a sad thing to say, but it honestly doesn't surprise me anymore about what humans can do to other humans, especially after going there and seeing the camp first hand.

It is no exaggeration to say you could feel in the air the sense of loss and destruction that occurred there. In the main part of the camp, it is a really tragic feeling that you get, walking under the 'Arbeit Mach Frei' entrance to visiting the gas chambers (where they kept motorcycles running outside to disguise the noise from within), to the electrified fences and the gallows, rooms where people were taken into and killed, and the walls where people were lined up and shot, and you could see the bullet holes in the walls still. In the museum the thousands of suitcases / eye-glasses and personal belongings piled up make your heart break, and you can see what the Nazi's did with the hair that they shaved off from people when they entered the camp too. Finally, we visited the part of the camp where the trains arrived with people from all over Europe. It is terrifying to imagine arriving there as all those poor souls did, where you were ordered left or right and that was the difference between being put to death immediately or having to work through slave labor. It is indeed tragic, but as I said it was one of the most important trips I have ever been on.

This is one of the most important remembrance days that there is, and we all must learn from this monstrous crime.

R.I.P to all who died during and as a result of the Holocaust.
 

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I've been to Aushwitz and Yad Vashem, and other genocide memorials in Armenia, Bangladesh and Cambodia, but I don't think anything affected me as much as witnessing Yom haShoa in Israel:

 
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Denis79

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I visited the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp when I was in school, so about 13 years ago, and it was one of the most important, albeit harrowing, trips I've ever been on. It's a sad thing to say, but it honestly doesn't surprise me anymore about what humans can do to other humans, especially after going there and seeing the camp first hand.

It is no exaggeration to say you could feel in the air the sense of loss and destruction that occurred there. In the main part of the camp, it is a really tragic feeling that you get, walking under the 'Arbeit Mach Frei' entrance to visiting the gas chambers (where they kept motorcycles running outside to disguise the noise from within), to the electrified fences and the gallows, rooms where people were taken into and killed, and the walls where people were lined up and shot, and you could see the bullet holes in the walls still. In the museum the thousands of suitcases / eye-glasses and personal belongings piled up make your heart break, and you can see what the Nazi's did with the hair that they shaved off from people when they entered the camp too. Finally, we visited the part of the camp where the trains arrived with people from all over Europe. It is terrifying to imagine arriving there as all those poor souls did, where you were ordered left or right and that was the difference between being put to death immediately or having to work through slave labor. It is indeed tragic, but as I said it was one of the most important trips I have ever been on.

This is one of the most important remembrance days that there is, and we all must learn from this monstrous crime.

R.I.P to all who died during and as a result of the Holocaust.
Well put. I had similar feelings visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau. I can honestly say it changed me in a profound way. I put aside alot of my prejudice and misconceptions I had after that visit. It is so important to remember what terrible things we as the human race are capable of and where racism and hate can lead us.
 

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Well put. I had similar feelings visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau. I can honestly say it changed me in a profound way. I put aside alot of my prejudice and misconceptions I had after that visit. It is so important to remember what terrible things we as the human race are capable of and where racism and hate can lead us.
Me too man. I mean, even when I was younger than I was on the trip I had tried not to be prejudiced or stereotypical about anything as I knew it was wrong, but after visiting that place it did change me. I abhor racist attitudes of any kind and you are right, hate and racism can lead to the most horrific and awful things and we must always remember and recognize that.
 

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I've always struggle to watch it but everyone really should see the 1985 documentary Shoah(The first part in on youtube).
Started watching it yesterday because I've never seen it... I wasn't ready for it...
 

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Wouldn't a thread ban have been sufficient ? He's certainly passionate about things but in my experience he's also ready to apologise.
It wasn't me who did it, but in general if the issue is related to one thread then yeah. If its more related to the individual then they may get a warning, which in some cases triggers an automatic temp ban by the system.
 

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As a Jew, it was interesting to see just how frighteningly quick such a genuinely respectful thread descended into this chaos.

In respect of the dead, I hope this tiny event on RedCafe serves as a reminder of how dangerously connected anti-semitism is to anti-zionism, no matter the denials.
 

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As a Jew, it was interesting to see just how frighteningly quick such a genuinely respectful thread descended into this chaos.

In respect of the dead, I hope this tiny event on RedCafe serves as a reminder of how dangerously connected anti-semitism is to anti-zionism, no matter the denials.
There's a place for this sort of thing and another place for debating Palestine. The two shouldn't be mixed imo. We also had an armenian genocide thread earlier this year.
 

Wibble

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Why was @4bars banned? Bit weird to look at the memorial of the Holocaust in pure isolation.
He got a time out for quality control reasons with his much reported comment about Jews crying about the holocaust being the last straw. It has been noted in the modmin forum that he has become increasingly disruptive in the CE forum. Hopefully he will learn to be less disruptive.
 

Nucks

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One group of people I'm aware of are Roma and Sinti, who were killed - among many other places - in Auschwitz and Treblinka as well, including in the gas chambers. They were marked for total physical extermination by the Nazis. Disabled and mentally ill people were systematically gassed during the course of Operation T4. But in general your point is true, afaik.
Yea, it's true about the Roma and other very small ethnic minorities. They tend to get overlooked because they are such a small minority, but they were targeted the same way as Jews were.
 

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We went to the Holocaust Museum in DC last spring. One of the most moving and emotional days of my life. How men can be manipulated into being so cruel and downright evil to others is beyond me.
 

JustAFan

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We went to the Holocaust Museum in DC last spring. One of the most moving and emotional days of my life. How men can be manipulated into being so cruel and downright evil to others is beyond me.
It probably helped that there was a long history of deep hatred for the Jews in Europe. The Nazi's did not invent it, they just took it to the extreme. You had almost every institution in Europe harboring some level of anti-semitism for several centuries. It only took someone willing to give permission to act on the hatred to set something like the Holocaust loose.

Just look at human history you see genocides/gendercides/mass killings through out, on every continent and by a wide variety of people.
 

4bars

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THough I keep thinking the same, they way I posted might offended some people, sorry about that
 

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I never understood the controversy about the excellent film Downfall. Some critics claimed that the movie 'humanised' the soulless monster that was Adolf Hitler, showed him being kind and respectful, and so on. But for me, the criticism was irrelevant - while Hitler was, on occasion, shown in a good light, it was still easy to bear in mind what he had done. How could one forget?
It's a brilliant film.

Surely it's right that Hitler was humanised? It takes away from the mystique surrounding him. I mean Godwin's Law is a very real example. How much of a superhuman do you have to be that whenever anyone does anything bad, you're the one they compare to, 73 years on from your death?

Humanising him highlights his massive flaws a lot better and leads people to understand he wasn't a comic book supervillain. How that can ever be a criticism about Hitler I'll never know. What were they thinking?
I think it's absolutely necessary to show Hitler and other prominent Nazis as humans, in order to make people understand that it doesn't take monsters to do monstrous things. I often read far right commenters dismissing comparisons of contemporary extreme right politicians and activists to the Nazis, because 'no, they are normal people'. Exactly. The Nazis were, too.