P&G Draft - R1: MJJ vs P-Nut/EAP

[P-Nut]

No the aegument is that there is a trade off, your wing backs can't defend as well as fullbacks or provide width and attack as well as wingers. So your side either lacks width or if you instruct them to push up, it means you will be left with three at the back.

They won't provide width as well as wingers no, but they will provide an outlet.

And no they won't be as defensive as a full back, but will contribute to defence.

You make it seem like they can only be a winger or a full back. The position is literally named after a mix of them both.

 

[MJJ]

They won't provide width as well as wingers no, but they will provide an outlet.

And no they won't be as defensive as a full back, but will contribute to defence.

You make it seem like they can only be a winger or a full back. The position is literally named after a mix of them both.

Exactly my point. So your side does lack in width, you guys are presenting it as having two wingbacks is the same as having two wingers which is wrong.

 

[P-Nut]

Exactly my point. So your side does lack in width, you guys are presenting it as having two wingbacks is the same as having two wingers which is wrong.

No we're not. We're saying whilst they won't be constantly attacking the full back, they will be an outlet out wide.

Not once have we said they'll be flying at your defence. In fact I think I've used the word outlet quite a few times.

 

[MJJ]

No we're not. We're saying whilst they won't be constantly attacking the full back, they will be an outlet out wide.

Not once have we said they'll be flying at your defence. In fact I think I've used the word outlet quite a few times.

Okay glad that we both acknowledged that your attack will be narrow at times.

I also think it's easier for my side to initiate attacks and create overloads out on the flanks, whereas your path to goal is a bit harder.

 

[Physiocrat]

Gone for MJJ. P-Nut and Edgar's front 3 are excellent and very complimentary the problem is I don't think their defence will hold up. Riquelme is criminally underrated. The reason he never hit the heights he could have is that he needs a very specific setup to get the best out of him. When he got that, most notably for Argentina in the World Cup I can't remember the year, he was excellent. I can see him having a great game here with all the forwards capable outside and in the middle. P-Nuts wing backs will have a hard time against Boniek and Hamrin who will create a good number of chances.

One of Eusebio and MVB will probably score but Vierchowod and Scriea will do better against them than P-Nut/Edgar's defence will against Suarez, Boniek and Hamrin

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Riquelme is criminally underrated. The reason he never hit the heights he could have is that he needs a very specific setup to get the best out of him. When he got that, most notably for Argentina in the World Cup I can't remember the year, he was excellent. I can see him having a great game here with all the forwards capable outside and in the middle.

This was Riquelme's best set up in 2006 world cup. 3 hard working ball winners providing the base, so he can concentrate to work his magic. Not this midfield who already have their hands full facing Zidane. I'm surprised you didn't even mention the impact of Zidane in your comments. Do you think he'll be kept quite? We may not have the flair of blanchflower, but Simeone-Cambiasso is arguable the better defensive duo to shield the backline.

MJJ's midfield has more flair and is less solid defensively,esp when they need to carry Riquelme. I would definitely disagree that Riquelme has a solid base in the game.

Vierchowod is getting way overrated here. Solid CB and good partnership overall, but Eusebio and MvB are both better CFs here and can be expected to come on top.

Montero is a solid players and in this back 3 set up I expect him to be able to handle Hamrin. Same with Azpi on other side.

 

[MJJ]

This was Riquelme's best set up in 2006 world cup. 3 hard working ball winners providing the base, so he can concentrate to work his magic. Not this midfield who already have their hands full facing Zidane. I'm surprised you didn't even mention the impact of Zidane in your comments. Do you think he'll be kept quite? We may not have the flair of blanchflower, but Simeone-Cambiasso is arguable the better defensive duo to shield the backline.

MJJ's midfield has more flair and is less solid defensively,esp when they need to carry Riquelme. I would definitely disagree that Riquelme has a solid base in the game.

Vierchowod is getting way overrated here. Solid CB and good partnership overall, but Eusebio and MvB are both better CFs here and can be expected to come on top.

Montero is a solid players and in this back 3 set up I expect him to be able to handle Hamrin. Same with Azpi on other side.

Overrated? This is him against probably the best player ever.

In an interview with Argentine magazine El Gráfico, Argentine footballer Diego Maradona, widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, dubbed Vierchowod his toughest opponent,[19] stating that "[Vierchowod] was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn't stand him anymore".[5]Throughout his career, Maradona gave Vierchowod the nickname Hulk.[1]

Gary Lineker also revealed in an interview with FourFourTwo that Vierchowod was "the hardest defender he ever faced" adding "he was absolutely brutal and lightning quick. He gave me one or two digs."[20]

Vierchowod won the Guerin d'oro ahead of Platini the year Platini won the Ballon D'or.

Van Basten only scored once against vierchowod and that was a lucky shot off a deflection, he(and Zico) also described vierchowod as his toughest opponent.

 

[MJJ]

so @Edgar Allan Pillow given that van basten only scored once against veirchowod in four years, playing in superior sides, how exactly will he be scoring today?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

so @Edgar Allan Pillow given that van basten only scored once against veirchowod in four years, playing in superior sides, how exactly will he be scoring today?

Thought Vierchowod was covering Eusebio?

 

[MJJ]

Thought Vierchowod was covering Eusebio?

is that the only reply you have? They are both CFs, whoever is closer gets covered.

But if Van Basten rather attack Scirea because he is afraid of Vierchowod that works for me too.

 

[Physiocrat]

This was Riquelme's best set up in 2006 world cup. 3 hard working ball winners providing the base, so he can concentrate to work his magic. Not this midfield who already have their hands full facing Zidane. I'm surprised you didn't even mention the impact of Zidane in your comments. Do you think he'll be kept quite? We may not have the flair of blanchflower, but Simeone-Cambiasso is arguable the better defensive duo to shield the backline.

MJJ's midfield has more flair and is less solid defensively,esp when they need to carry Riquelme. I would definitely disagree that Riquelme has a solid base in the game.

I didn't mention Zidane as I was focusing on goal threat and trying to redress the Riquelme underrating.

It is true this is not the setup of 2006 but Blanchflower and Seedorf are hard workers, as to is Boneik and Suarez. I think the main thing Riquelme needs is to be the main man and for the play to work through him which is what will happen here. Riquelme original mistake was to move to a 433 Barca.

Zidane will make things happen on the counter and I do think you'll score. I just see MJJ having more of the ball and making that count.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

is that the only reply you have? They are both CFs, whoever is closer gets covered.

But if Van Basten had rather attack Scirea because he is afraid of Vierchowod that works for me too.

That's suicide.

- Neither of your midfielders are capable of handling Zidane.
- Eusebio will be operating between the lines and saying Vierchowod will wait for him to run to him is absurd.

 

[MJJ]

That's suicide.

- Neither of your midfielders are capable of handling Zidane.
- Eusebio will be operating between the lines and saying Vierchowod will wait for him to run to him is absurd.

You are changing the argument now.

Like I said if vierchowod is overrated in your opinion, why was he described by maradona,zico,van basten as their toughest opponent and why did van basten only scored against him once?

Suicide is having your defense against my attack.

 

[MJJ]

Would be interesting to hear the draft regulars explain the reasoning behind their vote.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson @Jim Beam @crappycraperson

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You are changing the argument now.

Like I said if vierchowod is overrated in your opinion, why was he described by maradona,zico,van basten as their toughest opponent and why did van basten only scored against him once?

Suicide is having your defense against my attack.

Maradona also said matthaus was his toughest opponent. Does that mean we have Vierchowod and Matthaus as same cadre of players? You're reading way too much into quotes. “In my opinion Eusebio will always be the greatest player of all time,” Alfredo Di Stefano. So what?

 

[MJJ]

Maradona also said matthaus was his toughest opponent. Does that mean we have Vierchowod and Matthaus as same cadre of players? You're reading way too much into quotes. “In my opinion Eusebio will always be the greatest player of all time,” Alfredo Di Stefano. So what?

I dont see anything wrong with putting Vierchowod in the same category as Matthaus. The stats back up the quotes in this case as well.

When all the GOATS of the era describe you as among their toughest opponent, you must be doing something right.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It is true this is not the setup of 2006 but Blanchflower and Seedorf are hard workers

Seedorf never played as a pure DM and Blanchflower was more of a DLP. He was brilliant in controlling the pace of a game, but not really a defend against Zidane type player. Though I rate both players highly individually, as a duo, they are not really an optimal combination.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I dont see anything wrong with putting Vierchowod in the same category as Matthaus

Riquleme = Zidane. Vierchowod = Matthaus

 

[2mufc0]

Vierchowod credentials getting questioned while Azpilicueta with no international or European credentials getting a pass while in the other thread G Neville is getting slaughtered even though he achieved 10x more than him. Strange world we live in.

 

[Physiocrat]

Seedorf never played as a pure DM and Blanchflower was more of a DLP. He was brilliant in controlling the pace of a game, but not really a defend against Zidane type player. Though I rate both players highly individually, as a duo, they are not really an optimal combination.

Blanchflower DLP and Seedorf as B2B is fine

 

[MJJ]

Riquleme = Zidane. Vierchowod = Matthaus

Is that what I said? It seems like you are determined to bring back your old salesman version.

How do you feel about jarni btw since you are questioning the quality of blanchflower and vierchowod.

Blanchflower movement,vision,passing coupled with riquelme ensures my side will create plenty of chances against your inadequate defense.

 

[Indnyc]

Vierchowod credentials getting questioned while Azpilicueta with no international or European credentials getting a pass while in the other thread G Neville is getting slaughtered even though he achieved 10x more than him. Strange world we live in.

I swear the Neville and Vidic criticism was so over the top

 

[MJJ]

Classy performance from Blanchflower, had excellent one touch passing and a real eye for a pass. However did tended to be caught a bit flat footed at times defensively but on the rare occasion it had to be said. Was otherwise solid defensively with his positioning and work-rate.

Leicester did have a player injured and couldn't replace him as there were no subs at that time, so it was unfortunate for them. However, Spurs simply packed way too much quality and it's fair to say they'd have won either way imo, despite Leicester putting up a good fight.

Cliff Jones put in an eye catching performance and seemed like a proper winger with blistering pace and trickery.



Nice display and had a good range of passing whilst being consistent and not going for the unnecessary hollywood pass and a notable defensive performance.

Joga's post on blanchflower, as you can see while he was an excellent passer of the ball he was also an intelligent player with good positioning and workrate. Not the luxury midfield player edgar is painting him out to be.

 

[2mufc0]

I swear the Neville and Vidic criticism was so over the top

Agree mate. In Vidic case he had a few bad games against Torres but the majority of the time he kept him quiet. It's lazy criticism, he was a great defender.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Vierchowod credentials getting questioned while Azpilicueta with no international or European credentials getting a pass while in the other thread G Neville is getting slaughtered even though he achieved 10x more than him. Strange world we live in.

It's just the system. I have a 5 man defence against his 3 man attack. There are failsafe built in to accommodate for the fact that his wingers are superior. And they are not mugs. Sagnol is more of a crosser than a beat for pace overlapping kind of fullback. He's also defensively very astute enough to support Azpi.

 

[MJJ]

It's just the system. I have a 5 man defence against his 3 man attack. There are failsafe built in to accommodate for the fact that his wingers are superior. And they are not mugs. Sagnol is more of a crosser than a beat for pace overlapping kind of fullback. He's also defensively very astute enough to support Azpi.

Is that any different than me having a four man defense against your two attackers? If you wingbacks are supporting the attack, there will be moments when you only have 3 at the back with no 'failsafe'.

Not just the wingers, the central midfielders, central defenders and the fullbacks. The only place where you have the edge are the strikers and zidane.

 

[Jim Beam]

Would be interesting to hear the draft regulars explain the reasoning behind their vote.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson @Jim Beam @crappycraperson

Yeah, no problem. Went back and forth on this one tbh. Like that pairing of Cambiasso and Simeone to provide a platform for MVB/Eusebio and Zidane to work their magic. Rate your front 3 highly also (especially Boniek), but you're a bit unlucky when it comes to me as I never rated Riquelme as high as most people.

You have better fullbacks, probably even defence as a whole, but they have a bit more bodies to cover for their deficiencies. Despite all these great players upfront in both teams, I actually see this as a low scoring game with his attack more likely to nick something over the 90 minutes. That's pretty much it.

 

[MJJ]

Yeah, no problem. Went back and forth on this one tbh. Like that pairing of Cambiasso and Simeone to provide a platform for MVB/Eusebio and Zidane to work their magic. Rate your front 3 highly also (especially Boniek), but you're a bit unlucky when it comes to me as I never rated Riquelme as high as most people.

You have better fullbacks, probably even defence as a whole, but they have a bit more bodies to cover for their deficiencies. Despite all these great players upfront in both teams, I actually see this as a low scoring game with his attack more likely to nick something over the 90 minutes. That's pretty much it.

Fair enough, although in a low scoring game the side with the better defense normally wins

He does have the better attack but I think the gap between our attacks is lower than the gap between both defenses. On the subject of more bodies, he has five players against three attackers whereas I have four players against his two so its kind of even.

 

[Jim Beam]

Fair enough, although in a low scoring game the side with the better defense normally wins

He does have the better attack but I think the gap between our attacks is lower than the gap between both defenses. On the subject of more bodies, he has five players against three attackers whereas I have four players against his two so its kind of even.

Fair points. On the other hand, I don't think the gap between the defences is that big (although Jarni is certainly a bit of a week link imo), but Montero, Azpi and Shesternyov are pretty solid base while also having the likes of Cambiasso and Simeone in front of them. I just rate his attack to score more likely in such a close game and that part prevailed.

Will reevaluate it a bit tomorrow as tbh, I missed some of the debate on this last page and it's getting a bit late now.

 

[MJJ]

Fair points. On the other hand, I don't think the gap between the defences is that big (although Jarni is certainly a bit of a week link imo), but Montero, Azpi and Shesternyov are pretty solid base while also having the likes of Cambiasso and Simeone in front of them. I just rate his attack to score more likely in such a close game and that part prevailed.

Will reevaluate it a bit tomorrow as tbh, I missed some of the debate on this last page and it's getting a bit late now.

Cheers, some food for thought

It is but Vierchowod(has kept van basten/maradona quiet) is a far better defender than montero, scirea vs azpi is also a no contest.

Cambiasso and Simeone will have their hands full with blanchflower and seedorf so not sure how much they will be helping out.

Also worth noting that van basten only scored once(deflected shot) against vierchowod in four years despite playing for a better side.

 

[Indnyc]

Cheers, some food for thought

It is but Vierchowod(has kept van basten/maradona quiet) is a far better defender than montero, scirea vs azpi is also a no contest.

Cambiasso and Simeone will have their hands full with blanchflower and seedorf so not sure how much they will be helping out.

Also worth noting that van basten only scored once(deflected shot) against vierchowod in four years despite playing for a better side.

How many matches?

 

[MJJ]

How many matches?

7 or 8 I think.

This is what Gullit said in his book:-

Vierchowod,at Sampdoria, was one of the best defenders I ever came across. Ask Van Basten what he thinks of Vierchowod, Marco only managed to get past him once when we played against the star defender. A lucky goal after the ball had bounced back off the bar, Marco nodded it in.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

How many matches?

It's not MvB vs Vierchowod here. Eusebio is a class forward on his own and they have Zidane behind him. Absolutely unstoppable and in a close game, if you want some magic, you know whom to turn.

 

[Indnyc]

7 or 8 I think.

This is what Gullit said in his book:-

Vierchowod,at Sampdoria, was one of the best defenders I ever came across. Ask Van Basten what he thinks of Vierchowod, Marco only managed to get past him once when we played against the star defender. A lucky goal after the ball had bounced back off the bar, Marco nodded it in.

Looked on transfermarkt.. 2 goals (1 penalty) in 7 full games.. There were 4 sub appearances which I don’t count.. Does indeed add to the battle

 

[Indnyc]

It's not MvB vs Vierchowod here. Eusebio is a class forward on his own and they have Zidane behind him. Absolutely unstoppable and in a close game, if you want some magic, you know whom to turn.

I am not denying that.. Zidane behind Eusebio and Van Basten is why I voted you guys.. But Van Basten’s poor record against Vierchowood must be weighed in

 

[MJJ]

Looked on transfermarkt.. 2 goals (1 penalty) in 7 full games.. There were 4 sub appearances which I don’t count.. Does indeed add to the battle

How do you do that btw?

It's not MvB vs Vierchowod here. Eusebio is a class forward on his own and they have Zidane behind him. Absolutely unstoppable and in a close game, if you want some magic, you know whom to turn.

Unstoppable is boniek vs sagnol,hamrin vs jarni,or suarez vs montero/azpi not eusebio vs scirea/vierchowod.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Here is van Basten vs Sampodria. He was man marked and surrounded by seas of defenders. Still managed an assist.

Try that here with Eusebio and Zidane, I say!

@Jim Beam @Indnyc

 

[MJJ]

Here is van Basten vs Sampodria. He was man marked and surrounded by seas of defenders. Still managed an assist.

Try that here with Eusebio and Zidane, I say!

@Jim Beam @Indnyc

I have psoted what Gullit the goal scorer said above about vierchowod and van basten.

Still an assist after 9 matches against a backline of Lanna,Mannini,Vierchowod,Dossena,Pari isnt bad. I wonder what was the key reason why he struggled against such an average back five for so long.

I mean Van Basten with probably the greatest club side of all time struggled big time against an average sampdoria defense marshalled by Vierchowod but you seem to think that just because he is surrounded by Eusebio and Zidane he would magically dominate the encounter this time?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I am not denying that.. Zidane behind Eusebio and Van Basten is why I voted you guys.. But Van Basten’s poor record against Vierchowood must be weighed in

Sampodria parked the bus, man marked MvB to get that result. Is that happening here? MJJ can't afford to do that here without starving his own forwards.. Misleading Stat ignoring context.

It was not Vierchowod vs MvB but all defence vs MvB!

If you park the bus and man mark, even a Phil Jones defence could earn a dear against Pele.

Put MvB vs Vierchowood one on one in an. Open game, like what's happening here and MvB will come on top 8 times out of 10.

 

[Indnyc]

How do you do that btw?

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/marco-van-basten/gemeinsameSpiele/spieler/74471

Go to Career and you can choose teammates/ opponents etc.