P&G Draft - R1: Isotope vs 2mufc0

With players at their career peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,911


Isotope

The team weren’t a counter-attacking side, but used a quick transition to attack as quickly as possible. The players in midfield and attack make it possible to have varieties of use the pace of wingers to run with the ball or try an explosive counter-attack with two or three passes.

When attacking, my team relied on two of the best wingers in a business (G. Best & R. Giggs), a striker that knew where the back of the net was (RvP), and two tireless central midfielders who were comfortable when both creating and defending (B. Charlton & R. Baraja). Irwin in full-back, looked to overlap to provide an extra attacking option.

With a variety of goalscorers, RvP, Charlton, Best, and Giggs; my team will always score.

On defence, a back four of D. Irwin – R. Ayala – M. Sammer - C. Gentile were known for their hard-tackling, ruthless defending, and discipline in defense. The Juventus legend, S. Tacconi, was the last in line. Worth to mention that both Ayala and Sammer were ball playing centerbacks who could fasten the play when needed. Screening the defense was the tireless fighter S. Pluskal, with the help from Baraja & Charlton, and the underrated defending ability of Giggs.

In summary, I think my team has personnel to be tight when defending, and fascinating when attacking. Alas, despite 2mufc0 has MUFC in his, it’s my team that closer in resembling it.

2mufc0



I have put together a team based on one of the greatest footballing nations - Germany - efficient, hard working, determined, organised but with plenty of flair, technical ability and a touch of arrogance. Not many nations can boast the depth of talent produced in all positions with the results to back it up.

Despite the budget constraints i believe all of the players have stellar reputations, even the underused players in these drafts - Szymaniak and Schafer.

I have been lucky enough to pick up Germany's greatest player Franz Beckenbauer aka 'Kaiser'. I have put him at the heart of the team and will be the go to man in defense, midfield and also contribute in attack with his famous surging runs and distribution. He will be covered by two great stoppers at the back Forster & Buchwald and 2 midfielders with fantastic engines Breitner & Szymaniak. I will provide a more complete profile on Szymaniak in the match thread, but he was a left sided box to box midfielder comparable to Davids in terms of style.

This platform will allow Kaiser to impose himself on the game and essentially run it, imo there isn't anyone in the history of the game who is better for the task assigned.

Width will be provided by Kaltz and Briegel, both were athletic and also able to provide excellent defensive cover.

In goal is Bert Trautmann. Although born in Germany he never played for the national team (not because he wasn't good enough, but because he wasn't in the German league at that time and was playing for City. He should have been in the 1954 WC winniing team).

Perhaps there is no greater tribute than that of the one Lev Yashin once gave of Trautmann. The Russian keeper, regarded by many as the greatest goalkeeper of all time, said, when asked to name the greatest goalkeeper ever he replied "There have only been two world-class goalkeepers. One was Lev Yashin, the other was the German boy who played in Manchester: Trautmann."

The midfield has been covered above. As for the attack the clinical Klinsmann will be leading the line, combining with Rummenigge on the right and 1954 WC hero Hans Schafer on the left. All three carry goal threats and also able to create.

Finally, with all of the players being German and many which have played together there will be a chemistry and shared philosophy which other drafted teams won’t have with a mish mash of players. This will elevate every player in the team and I hope voters take this into consideration.
 
Last edited:

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
"Typical German", which is not really typical. Never seen a German team with three DMs in midfield.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,596
@2mufc0 thought of switching Beckenbauer and Szymaniak? The former is bigger asset IMO going forward. Also the Breitnigge link :drool:

@Isotope love the use of Sammer here and of course some great flanks :drool:
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
"Typical German", which is not really typical. Never seen a German team with three DMs in midfield.
None of those 3 are DM's to be fair. All 3 have great attacking credentials as well.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
@2mufc0 thought of switching Beckenbauer and Szymaniak? The former is bigger asset IMO going forward. Also the Breitnigge link :drool:

@Isotope love the use of Sammer here and of course some great flanks :drool:
Well thank you, sir. Sammer cost me 90m. He better be good and be counted there.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
None of those 3 are DM's to be fair. All 3 have great attacking credentials as well.
Szymaniak? I'm not sure about "great in attacking", but I'd say Breitner and Beckenbauer are defensive players who can attack. Just like Sammer in my team.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
"Typical German", which is not really typical. Never seen a German team with three DMs in midfield.
Come on man, Breitner is a B2B. Even Kaiser can't be considered a pure DM either.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Can someone please resize my formation picture and send it to physio ? On the phone and won't have access to a pc for a while.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
HORST SZYMANIAK



Of all the great players in these teams (names such as Uwe Seeler, Karl-Heinz Schnellinger and “World Cup” Willi Schulz live on in the popular imagination) the player whose legacy least recognises his tremendous talent was Horst Szymaniak. On the face of it Szymaniak was eminently forgettable. A left-half from the Ruhr, Germany’s traditional mining and industrial region, Szymaniak was not blessed with the Hollywood looks or the maverick tendencies of a George Best. He did not win countless trophies for a host of rich and decorated clubs. Yet he made himself a reputation within Germany and beyond as one of the finest midfielders of his age.

Szymaniak’s first involvement with Die Mannschaft was for the B team in a game against Spain in May 1956 which saw him play in an unfamiliar right-wing role. He impressed enough though to win a call up later that year for the full team (the reigning world champions at the time) in a match against Switzerland. Szymaniak suffered an injury in that game and had to be replaced at left-half by Karl Mai, but he returned a month later against Belgium and soon established himself as a vital part of the German side.

On his arrival on the international stage comparisons were naturally made with Germany’s last great half-back, Andreas Kupfer. Kupfer was an integral part of the German side of the 1930s, the team that came to be known as the “Breslau Elf” on account of their 8-0 thrashing of Denmark in that city in 1937. For Szymaniak then the expectations were significant if he was to equal the achievements of his exceptional predecessor, yet he managed to, if anything, exceed the performances of Kupfer in his domination of Germany’s midfield.

Although Wuppertal SV were relegated from the Oberliga in 1958, Szymaniak’s disappointment was tempered by the opportunity to play in his first World Cup. The Germans reached the semi-finals before defeat to the hosts, Sweden. Szymaniak was the team’s brightest spark and was named among numerous “all-star” tournament selections at left-half in recognition of his fine all-round contribution as well as finishing 8th in the Ballon D’Or.

What set Szymaniak apart from his rivals was his alliance of his physical gifts with exceptional technique. There were few players in his era who were able to play so comfortably as a defensive half-back and as a creative inside-forward and in both roles he was able to demonstrate the full range of his talents. As a left-half Szymaniak was tall and strong, with a fantastic ability to anticipate the movements of his opponents. For Catania, Szymaniak was noted in a rare appearance at half-back for the marking role he performed on Jimmy Greaves, at the time playing for AC Milan. Greaves’ spell in Milan was unhappy but prolific, yet for once he did not find the back of the net thanks to the attentions of the German. At inside-forward Szymaniak demonstrated a delicate touch, a love of surging forward from deep and the vision to pick out his teammates in dangerous positions. Had he chosen to play further forward he might well have rivalled Netzer, Overath and Fritz Walter among Germany’s finest creative cogs.

Perhaps the greatest illustration of Szymaniak’s true worth was the judgement of his contemporaries. German magazine Kicker, known for their notoriously harsh semi-annual assessments of the nation’s players, considered him “World Class” every year from 1957-61. Only Franz Beckenbauer achieved more consecutive “World Class” ratings than Schimmi. Meanwhile his five nominations for the Ballon D’Or (in the same years) showed that he was appreciated well beyond his home nation. More than enough reason to start remembering this forgotten great.

Read more at https://www.worldsoccer.com/blogs/p...manys-best-players-330108#0Zc8bl8QpAKz1qlf.99

KICKER COMMENTARY

July 1957


.... one player rose to 'world class' who only a short while ago was not even known in his local region, someone who even was rejected by football followers: we talk of Szymaniak. He is the only player that Germany could nominate to play in a European selection. Closest to Szymaniak in world class came full back Juskowiak and Willy Schröder of Bremen.

December 1957

.... It is not only "kicker" that grants Horst Szymaniak an exceptional position. Notable foreign observers count him among 'world class' players. They confirm that Szymaniak's technique, condition and vision are outstanding.

December 1958

Again "kicker" puts the ranking order up for discussion. This time we have observed the whole year because we did not want to compile a ranking directly after the World Cup in summer. Thus this ranking does not only look at the last few weeks and ignores individual failures as well as occasional brilliant performances. Exemplary for this is Juskowiak. The Düsseldorf player rose to a 'world class' level in the weeks prior to the World Cup and in the World Cup itself. That he could not keep this high level up afterwards resulted from reasons that have nothing to do with his class. Rahn and Szymaniak, just recently voted as the best in Europe by international sports critics, are the other two players we rated as 'world class' in our ranking.

July 1959

.... our ranking covers the first six months of 1959 and disregards occasional failures just the same as occasional great performances. That Szymaniak's form, for example, suffered in the first few weeks of 1959 after an malleolar fracture had nothing to do with his class. We count him among the players of 'world class' just like Uwe Seeler, who of all top players arguably showed the most consistent form, and Erich Juskowiak.

December 1959

.... As usual the biggest debate among our readers will be ignited by the term 'world class'. In our last ranking we labelled three players as such: Uwe Seeler, Erich Juskowiak and Horst Szymaniak. In our current ranking we also count goalkeeper Hans Tilkowski and Helmut Rahn among them. "Kicker" talked to Gustav Sebes a few weeks ago, the creator of the great Hungarian World Cup side, which was beat by Germany in the 1954 World Cup final. The Hungarian's opinion on Uwe Seeler you already read on page 2. Regarding Tilkowski, the neutral and unbiased Gustav Sebes arrived at the following conclusion: "Who is better? The top group of outstanding goalkeepers is so small. Absolute world class among international goalkeepers are surely the Russian Yashin and the Yugoslav Soskic. In any case, regarding Germany Tilkowski is a class of his own." Szymaniak, Tilkowski and Rahn the neutral critic Sebes rates among the world elite. Schnellinger, said Sebes, is close to reaching this elite.

December 1960

For four years already foreign journalists rate Szymaniak as one of the world's best. We already rated Tilkowski as 'world class' last year. And he confirmed our rating this year quite convincingly.

July 1961

The fiercest debates will again be caused by the term "world class". We count Uwe Seeler, Horst Szymaniak and Karl-Heinz Schnellinger as "world class". A bad performance by Uwe Seeler every now and then arguably do not change our ranking of him because only the sum of the performances are counted.

Very possibly Szymaniak will be featured for the last time in our ranking if he the DFB releases him to play for Catania next weekend, as German players playing abroad evade our constant observation which is also the reason why Helmut Rahn is not featured in our ranking. Just the same foreigners that play in Germany are not evalued.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/kicker-commentary-for-world-class-players.2058932/
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
but I'd say Breitner and Beckenbauer are defensive players who can attack
Breitner scored 103 goals in 369 league games.
Giggs scored 114 in 672.

I'll leave the argument to you lads though. Good luck.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
@2mufc0 thought of switching Beckenbauer and Szymaniak? The former is bigger asset IMO going forward. Also the Breitnigge link :drool:
Cheers Enigma, I could do but I wanted Kaiser in the middle of things, the beauty about these 3 they are versatile and can interchange..
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
Come on man, Breitner is a B2B. Even Kaiser can't be considered a pure DM either.
Yeh that's true, as @idmanager put that Breitner's stats, it's hard to believe for a midfielder. Agreed, Kaiser is more like midfielder than defender.
Have to admit, you have a cracking team, mate. It looks very hard to beat, with a bit lack in creativity/flair.

I didn't know about that Szymaniak also. Seems like another gem from Kicker's.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
27,952
Location
Moscow
Szymaniak? I'm not sure about "great in attacking", but I'd say Breitner and Beckenbauer are defensive players who can attack. Just like Sammer in my team.
Pretty sure that Breitner came close to a 20-goal season as a midfielder and he had made tons of assists (mostly to Runnenigge) as well. Can't check as I'm on the phone, but he was definitely not a defensive player at his peak, even though he possessed a good work rate. I'd even argue that Breitner at left back wasn't a defensive player :)
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
Pretty sure that Breitner came close to a 20-goal season as a midfielder and he had made tons of assists (mostly to Runnenigge) as well. Can't check as I'm on the phone, but he was definitely not a defensive player at his peak, even though he possessed a good work rate. I'd even argue that Breitner at left back wasn't a defensive player :)
Yeh. With that stats. sounds like more of attacking player more than B2B. Transfermarket has his stats. Lot's of goals and assists in Bundesliga, but much less prolific in European cups. 38 games, 7 goals, and 1 assist.

Compared to Giggs in European cups, 162 games, 30 goals, 43 assists.
 
Last edited:

worldinmotion66

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
2,028
Isotope edges this for me. Particularly like the Ayala/Sammer combination and the difference maker in George Best. Very close though.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
HANS SHAFER



A pacey left winger with outstanding technical ability and a formidable long-range shot, Schäfer made his first international appearance in November 1952. He played for West Germany in three World Cups – in 1954, 1958 and 1962 – earning a winner’s medal in the first of them and captaining the side to the semi-finals and then the quarter-finals in the next two.

Regarded as one of his country’s greatest wingers, Schäfer was also a significant goalscorer, particularly admired for his long shots. His four goals in the finals in Switzerland were a key factor in West Germany’s 1954 World Cup triumph, which was sealed with a victory against much-fancied Hungary in what was one of the best matches in World Cup history.

Schäfer, playing at outside-left in the final, showed the true winger’s gifts of pace and control during that encounter. Though he did not score in the match, he was instrumental in setting up the winning goal. With five minutes left and the score at 2-2, Hungary’s commanding right-half, József Bozsik, made a rare mistake, misplacing a pass. Schäfer was on to it like lightning, and then found his captain, Fritz Walter, who crossed. When the ball was pushed out, it reached the muscular right-winger Helmut Rahn, who promptly drove it back into the goal to make it 3-2.

Born in the Zollstock district of Cologne, Schäfer was a one-club man with his home team, FC Köln, for whom he appeared in 394 league games between 1948 and 1965, scoring 254 goals. He made a lively international debut in 1952, scoring twice in a 5-1 home defeat of Switzerland. The prev
ious incumbent at outside-left, Bernhard Termath, then resumed his place for a couple of matches, but in March 1953 Schäfer was back again on the left-wing. The result was a goalless draw against Austria, but Schäfer would now keep his place for a long time to come.

In 1954 he was in incisive form. In the World Cup finals he played every game except the second, when the Germans somewhat cynically put out a weakened team that lost 8-3 to Hungary in Basel, which seemed to suggest they had no real answer to the Hungarians. In a couple of easy victories against Turkey, Schäfer scored three times, and he got another goal in the 6-1 rout of Austria in the semi-final.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/nov/07/hans-schafer-obituary

STATS AND RANKINGS

100 greatest left wingers (Ranked 12th)
http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-left-wingers-of-all-time.1524392/page-5

100 greatest wingers (left and right combined) (Ranked 40th)
https://www.xtratime.org/forum/348-history-football/268199-100-greatest-wingers-all-time.html

http://footballsgreatest.weebly.com/left-wingers.html

In the 1954 WC, he scored 4 goals. In comparison Czibor scored 3.

In total he scored 254 goals in 394 games for club. 15 in 39 for Germany.

German footballer of the year 1963.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Isotope edges this for me. Particularly like the Ayala/Sammer combination and the difference maker in George Best. Very close though.
Cheers for the input!

I might be nitpicking but Sammer was at his best in a back 5 where he was allowed to surge forward, in a setup like this he will be a little more restrained. I would also argue it would be better suited to have stopper next to him than a ball playing cb like Ayala.

Its hard to argue against his attackers as obviously given the team I support he has quite a few of my favourites. But Best will up against two of my best defenders in Briegel and Forster, in fact apart for Maldini I can't think of many better left backs to put there to try and limit him. Briegel was not only a great defender he was also physically gifted the perfect combo to face a tricky winger.

I also think I have the better midfield Baraja and Pluskal are good players but not near the level of my midfielders.
 
Last edited:

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Would be good to get the views on the midfield battle esp by those who have already voted , as I can see my team cutting of the supply to those great attackers, which would be the primary way of stopping them. I honestly don't see how Baraja and Pluskal will get a foothold in the game against my MF.
 

worldinmotion66

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
2,028
Cheers for the input!

I might be nitpicking but Sammer was at his best in a back 5 where he was allowed to surge forward, in a setup like this he will be a little more restrained. I would also argue it would be better suited to have stopper next to him than a ball playing cb like Ayala.

Its hard to argue against his attackers as obviously given the team I support he has quite a few of my favourites. But Best will up against two of my best defenders in Briegel and Forster, in fact apart for Maldini I can't think of many better left backs to put there to try and limit him. Briegel was not only a great defender he was also physically gifted the perfect combo to face a tricky winger.

I also think I have the better midfield Baraja and Pluskal are good players but not near the level of my midfielders.
Ayala was very aggressive, I would argue that he is an effective stopper and he was great in the air too so I think he'd comfortably match klinsmann. Sammer was a fantastic all round player, but he was an exceptional defender and very intelligent when sweeping. I think it's a perfect combination.

While you have great defenders, I don't think anyone can cope with peak George best and I just feel his creative attack will swing it slightly
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Ayala was very aggressive, I would argue that he is an effective stopper and he was great in the air too so I think he'd comfortably match klinsmann. Sammer was a fantastic all round player, but he was an exceptional defender and very intelligent when sweeping. I think it's a perfect combination.

While you have great defenders, I don't think anyone can cope with peak George best and I just feel his creative attack will swing it slightly
Fair enough mate, it's just one of those things where i won't change your mind, Best is Best and we are on a United forum.

As for Klinsmann he rarely gets the credit he deserves as he's not the most flashiest of names, but throughout his career he's scored goals in the biggest stages against the best defenders. He's just one of those players who will be in the right place at the right time.

I would also fancy Rummenigge vs Irwin.
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
Sammer in a 4 man defense always raises questions and Baraja/Pluskal midfield is slightly underwhelming in an all time context. Aside for this, Isotope has an excellent team.

Will wait a bit more on the arguments from both sides before voting
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Sammer in a 4 man defense always raises questions and Baraja/Pluskal midfield is slightly underwhelming in an all time context. Aside for this, Isotope has an excellent team.

Will wait a bit more on the arguments from both sides before voting
I think the midfield is where the biggest disparity is between the teams, and with Kaiser looking after Charlton i see Giggs, Best and RVP feeding off scraps.

I don't think Kaiser is getting his dues here, he's clearly up there with the Pele's and Madonna's but as he's a midfielder/defender and doesn't have the same pulling power. He's clearly the best player on the pitch in this game.
 

Don Alfredo

Full Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
2,071
Supports
Germany
I would suggest changing Buchwald and Beckenbauer. You don't want Beckenbauer engaged in a constant hassle with Charlton, you want him to run the show all over the pitch. He could do that even from CB as starting position, he is the master in that profession. Buchwald is perfectly fitted to perform a man marking job, much better at that than as a normal CB (although still good). Similar to Gentile, he limited the influence of Maradona in the 1990 WC final.

I think Isotope's central attacks are running into a wall of tough as nails Germans. The key will be who is more likely to produce a breakthrough, Giggs and Best vs the German flanks or Breitnigge vs that Ayala/Irwin side? Haven't decided yet.

I just watched some footage of Baraja, cracking player:drool:. It was mostly goals and passes though, anyone can shed a light on how good his defensive contribution was?

Solid effort @2mufc0 by the way on putting together the info about Schafer and Szymaniak, two world class players of their time:drool: I would have picked a different CF for sure instead of Klinsmann. He's a good striker with great achievements, but I think there are some German CFs who are both better and more suited to that team, especially with Kaltz as RB and taking into account the single striker system. You had the most obvious route to goal directly in front of you, but just missed out on it:yawn:
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
I think the midfield is where the biggest disparity is between the teams, and with Kaiser looking after Charlton i see Giggs, Best and RVP feeding off scraps.

I don't think Kaiser is getting his dues here, he's clearly up there with the Pele's and Madonna's but as he's a midfielder/defender and doesn't have the same pulling power. He's clearly the best player on the pitch in this game.
Kaiser is very highly rated and I am sure he should get his due here. I agree there is a disparity in midfield but Isotope does have the advantage on the wings
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
I would suggest changing Buchwald and Beckenbauer. You don't want Beckenbauer engaged in a constant hassle with Charlton, you want him to run the show all over the pitch. He could do that even from CB as starting position, he is the master in that profession. Buchwald is perfectly fitted to perform a man marking job, much better at that than as a normal CB (although still good). Similar to Gentile, he limited the influence of Maradona in the 1990 WC final.

I think Isotope's central attacks are running into a wall of tough as nails Germans. The key will be who is more likely to produce a breakthrough, Giggs and Best vs the German flanks or Breitnigge vs that Ayala/Irwin side? Haven't decided yet.

I just watched some footage of Baraja, cracking player:drool:. It was mostly goals and passes though, anyone can shed a light on how good his defensive contribution was?

Solid effort @2mufc0 by the way on putting together the info about Schafer and Szymaniak, two world class players of their time:drool: I would have picked a different CF for sure instead of Klinsmann. He's a good striker with great achievements, but I think there are some German CFs who are both better and more suited to that team, especially with Kaltz as RB and taking into account the single striker system. You had the most obvious route to goal directly in front of you, but just missed out on it:yawn:
Sir Bobby respect on the the great Kaiser:
"When I think back to '66, Franz and I spent most of the day looking at each other and as a result we didn't contribute anything to the match in a really positive way. We were so busy making sure each other didn't do anything that we cancelled each other out. It's probably why we've become such good friends - because we started so close to each other.

"He was a great player, very positive, very fast and always dangerous. So it was my job to stop him in 1966 and 1970. He was the most dangerous player they had. He could do extraordinary things with his pace, control and ability, but if someone ran with him all the time it seemed to limit his danger." https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-rematch-for-bobby-and-the-kaiser-1138129.html
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
@Isotope both Baraja and Pluskal were more DM’s for their teams and not known for their creative play. With Charlton and Kaiser cancelling each other out where do you see the creativity coming from midfield?
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
Sammer in a 4 man defense always raises questions and Baraja/Pluskal midfield is slightly underwhelming in an all time context. Aside for this, Isotope has an excellent team.

Will wait a bit more on the arguments from both sides before voting
It's the same question like Beckenbauer, though. Is he great on back four?

Also here, Sammer has Gentile and Ayala flanking him. Two tough tackling, no-nonsense CBs.
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
I just watched some footage of Baraja, cracking player:drool:. It was mostly goals and passes though, anyone can shed a light on how good his defensive contribution was?
Baraja generally was more defensive in the Valencia team with Mendieta and Kily Gonzalez as the more attacking players.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
I would suggest changing Buchwald and Beckenbauer. You don't want Beckenbauer engaged in a constant hassle with Charlton, you want him to run the show all over the pitch. He could do that even from CB as starting position, he is the master in that profession. Buchwald is perfectly fitted to perform a man marking job, much better at that than as a normal CB (although still good). Similar to Gentile, he limited the influence of Maradona in the 1990 WC final.

I think Isotope's central attacks are running into a wall of tough as nails Germans. The key will be who is more likely to produce a breakthrough, Giggs and Best vs the German flanks or Breitnigge vs that Ayala/Irwin side? Haven't decided yet.

I just watched some footage of Baraja, cracking player:drool:. It was mostly goals and passes though, anyone can shed a light on how good his defensive contribution was?

Solid effort @2mufc0 by the way on putting together the info about Schafer and Szymaniak, two world class players of their time:drool: I would have picked a different CF for sure instead of Klinsmann. He's a good striker with great achievements, but I think there are some German CFs who are both better and more suited to that team, especially with Kaltz as RB and taking into account the single striker system. You had the most obvious route to goal directly in front of you, but just missed out on it:yawn:
Cheers for the feedback. I put Beckenbauer there in almost a 'free role' he's not tasked of marking Sir Bobby out of the game. That's why i have surrounded him with runners in midfield who can cover for him when he surges forward and 2 of the best man markers behind him (Forster/Buchwald) to pick up the attackers behind him.

As for the striker, i'm guessing Muller? if so, he's way out of my budget. I think we have plenty of routes to goal:

- Kalle vs Irwin
- Klinsmann has the knack of scoring whoever he plays against
- You know of Schafer's goal threat
- Breitner long shots
- All of my midfielders are able to make those penetrating runs into the box to score, and he only has Pluskal in midfield who is able to track these runs.
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
It's the same question like Beckenbauer, though. Is he great on back four?

Also here, Sammer has Gentile and Ayala flanking him. Two tough tackling, no-nonsense CBs.
Beckenbauer is in a back 5 here. Much more freedom to go forward. Not saying Sammer can’t play that role but does take away a bit from his natural game
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
16,992
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
It's the same question like Beckenbauer, though. Is he great on back four?
He's not playing in a back four here. But i would wager he could do it as he's a superior player to Sammer in every way.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
@Isotope both Baraja and Pluskal were more DM’s for their teams and not known for their creative play. With Charlton and Kaiser cancelling each other out where do you see the creativity coming from midfield?
Baraja is like Roy Keane, not really a pure DM. Then Best himself is a creative player as well. You may not wrong to think that Giggs is not a pure hugging the line winger, but creative player as well.