“We need better players....”

[Enigma_87]

It's mainly because so far, playing attractive football and having a good amount of investment generally leads to success. Arsenal and Spurs aren't putting hundreds of millions into their squads. Liverpool might be winning nothing but they look to have a better chance of winning something than us right now.

So we should thrive to be like those? The last time Arsenal won the title was 14 years ago. The last time Spurs or Liverpool won the title PL wasn't even formed yet.

And lol at Liverpool not putting in hundreds of millions in their squads.

 

[redIndianDevil]

We haven't had a decent right winger who will actually stay on the right for years.

We haven't had fullbacks go can attack and cross for years.

Our CB's don't know how to bring the ball out and pass forward. We kind of had that with a makeshift CB in Blind and signed Lindelof with hopes that he'll be the one to solve this problem but neither of them seem good enough to handle the pace and physicality of the league.

I'm sure coaching/tactics share a big portion of the blame but after spending so much money, it's clear that we still have glaring issues and that we have not spent our money wisely.

Mourinho seems to think Willian is the only right winger in the world. Barcelona signed a backup RW from Roma on the cheap(relatively), if Mourinho wanted a RW, we would atleast have made a bid for that guy.

 

[rpitchfo]

Clubs like United (and pretty much every professional club) do not practice the “basics”. You don’t need to. ALL professional footballers are techinically very good (some obviously being better than others). That’s why they have got this far.

They are coached patterns of play in a specific system.

When you see them messing up the basics it’s because of a fundamental lack of confidence. Usually because they aren’t sure what’s expected of them or they don’t buy into the system 100%.

We regularly had 70% possession under lvg. These players know how to pass and keep a ball. They just haven’t got a clue what they are meant to be doing at the minute.

That’s on Jose.

 

[forevrared]

It won't change until the owners leave so you better get your thinking caps on if you want to see Manchester United back at the top of the English and European game.

I've seen United win it all to be honest and tried my best in 2005 to help the fight against the owners but it wasn't enough for a number of reasons. I'm too tired for it.

But believe me, we're in big trouble if they stay. We'll go round and round with blaming managers and players. It's a pointless exercise while the Glazers and they clowns they employ (Woodward) run the show at this wonderful club.

I'd like to remind you that fans CAN make a difference and accepting it is the first part of them getting away with it.

I chipped in to the MUST as well back then, but at some point, you've got to play the hand you're dealt and stop whinging about your cards. If there's a realistic option for replacing them I'm all for it. Until then, we've got to look at the manager and the players. There are plenty of other clubs getting far more out of lesser players and managers who were not as experienced as Mourinho. We can't let the owners be the only bogeyman when they've (for all their faults) put their money where their mouths are in recent years.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You were referring to Bailly, who Mourinho (presumably based on information given to him by the scouting staff who you clearly outweigh) decided to rate enough to want at the club.

We vetoed specific central defenders (Boateng, Mina) because they would have been hideous deals which many plonkers would only criticise a year after loving the fact we signed them. Director of Footbal, or something...

The shower on our books have been up there with the best defences in England for four full seasons. What lacks is the goalscoring. Which imbecile 1 and 2 have been/will be held accountable for over the course of those four seasons. Van Gaal got the boot because of it and so will Mourinho.

Two shots on target against Brighton with hundreds of millions of pounds on the pitch. It's an abomination.

Nah, you’re talking shite. Our goals against column is a combination of a very conservative approach from the whole team and a keeper who did brilliantly despite possibly facing more shots at his goal than the rest of the top three keepers combined (as much as keepers from the mid to bottom of the table). Our defence has been abomination since Rio and Vidic retired. That couldn’t be more obvious.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether I think Mourinho is doing a good enough job overall. That’s a different discussion. He doesn’t deserve much credit but the goals against column mentioned above is the only item in the “pro” column. Creating a semi effective backline out of all those wastemen is kind of impressive, if you ask me. There’s been nothing else impressive about his tenure anyway.

 

[RedDave16]

The players are not the problem. The squad is not good enough to win to league, because City is setting a really high standard. But there is a lot of quality and definitely enough to beat Brighton. None of there players would get into the United team.

This team is good when they can defend deep and compact and hurt the opposition on the counter. If it is the other way around they are screwed, because pressing is inexistent, playing out from the back doesn't work (a lot hoofing) and in the final third the players do everthing completely on there own. No patterns, nothing. Jose relies on the individual quality and the athleticism of his forwards. These are coaching issues and they are not gonna change, no matter how many good players he brings in.

 

[Raw]

So we should thrive to be like those? The last time Arsenal won the title was 14 years ago. The last time Spurs or Liverpool won the title PL wasn't even formed yet.

And lol at Liverpool not putting in hundreds of millions in their squads.

Not at all. I want us to play good football and invest a lot to improve on it. And I never said Liverpool didn't put hundreds of millions in, they're only just starting to do it more now and it looks like it could be paying off.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's bollocks. Every trophy we won with Ferguson was won by playing attacking football.

Aren't Bailly and Lindelof supposed to be ball playing defenders? Two defenders that the board bought for Mourinho. Enough of the excuses.

Every trophy we won under Fergie came in a time Leicester and Everton weren't spending 100 millions of EUR in a single transfer window.

Brighton the team everyone seems to mock about spent 5-6m pounds less than us this transfer window. Times are different - you either go with the flow or don't.

Lindelof and Bailly both are young defenders coming from different leagues. We had a shortlist of 5-6 experienced defenders or defenders that could be leaders at the back - we brought none. Now we're reaping what we sow.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not saying that we need to play attacking football no matter what. The point is that playing football where the idea is to score one more goal than the opposition rather than what we are doing today which is to concede one less goal than the opposition, can be an indicator for success.

Some years ago it was easier to defend and counter/rely on mistakes from the opposition to score/get chances. So playing football that relied on being better to defend than the other team was good at attacking was likely to give you success. As football has evolved over the years with more technical and better attacking players, and most teams in the EPL are better tactically/less naive at attacking then they were before, defend to win is less likely to yield success compared to attack to win.

Also: attack to win mentality is more entertaining compared to a defend to win mentality.

My favorite for a manager post Jose is Simeone. Simeone who has build his credentials over time and punches above his weight on consistent basis. His style is no different to Jose's. I bet there will be a lot of moaners even if we get him here.

Chelsea under Conte didn't play attractive football yet won the league. Can't really think of an example where you haven't got a world class team, playing great football without spending tons of money in recent past.

 

[RedorDead21]

Mourinho seems to think Willian is the only right winger in the world. Barcelona signed a backup RW from Roma on the cheap(relatively), if Mourinho wanted a RW, we would atleast have made a bid for that guy.

Barca wanted Willian?

 

[CA1]

I chipped in to the MUST as well back then, but at some point, you've got to play the hand you're dealt and stop whinging about your cards. If there's a realistic option for replacing them I'm all for it. Until then, we've got to look at the manager and the players. There are plenty of other clubs getting far more out of lesser players and managers who were not as experienced as Mourinho. We can't let the owners be the only bogeyman when they've (for all their faults) put their money where their mouths are in recent years.

They haven't put any money where their mouths are, they've only taken money from this club.

We can always discuss managers and players. Tactics, style of play, whether play x is good enough but we'll go round in circles.

Last year we finish 2nd to a team and manager who doubled our spend. There was criticism. Because we're Manchester United and we should be winning the league.

But we didn't, we didn't have the tools.

And we never really will under the Glazers.. So like I say, round and round in circles bar a truly outstanding managerial and team performance over 9 months. The same pipedream Arsenal and Liverpool have lived off for the last 15-20 years.

 

[steffyr2]

United have enough quality players to easily outplay Brighton. It's not about the players when they look like a random collection of individuals.

At some point, it really is about the players. When --
- the defense screws up and gives up goal #1
- the defense screws up again and gives up goal #2
- the defense screws up one more time and gives up a penalty for goal #3
- the midfield gives the ball away
- the midfield gives the ball away
etc
- the wing crosses to a defender over and over
etc
- the attack can't get a shot off
etc

If only Mourinho was nicer to poor little Martial!

 

[RedorDead21]

My favorite for a manager post Jose is Simeone. Simeone who has build his credentials over time and punches above his weight on consistent basis. His style is no different to Jose's. I bet there will be a lot of moaners even if we get him here.

Chelsea under Conte didn't play attractive football yet won the league. Can't really think of an example where you haven't got a world class team, playing great football without spending tons of money in recent past.

You are joking? You want to see this place under Simeone!! Feck sake that’s the worst idea I’ve heard in 2018

 

[Enigma_87]

Not at all. I want us to play good football and invest a lot to improve on it. And I never said Liverpool didn't put hundreds of millions in, they're only just starting to do it more now and it looks like it could be paying off.

They have done it all the time mate, come on. In many years they've overspent Fergie and still came pretty short. They've won CL and made it to another final 10 years ago or so. Can't really see much improvement since those times under Klopp.

 

[Enigma_87]

You are joking? You want to see this place under Simeone!! Feck sake that’s the worst idea I’ve heard in 2018

Exactly my point. When hundreds of fans want Giggs or Neville instead of him it's telling.

 

[Kag]

Nah, you’re talking shite. Our goals against column is a combination of a very conservative approach from the whole team and a keeper who did brilliantly despite possibly facing more shots at his goal than the rest of the top three keepers combined (as much as keepers from the mid to bottom of the table). Our defence has been abomination since Rio and Vidic retired. That couldn’t be more obvious.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether I think Mourinho is doing a good enough job overall. That’s a different discussion.

In four seasons we have conceded very few goals in comparison to sides in the rest of the league. Or in Europe, infact. It's because our defenders (the likes of Smalling and Jones, actually) are good at defending, in spite of the dog's abuse they get. Not brilliant, by any means, but good defenders. The De Gea save conversion gets bandied about a lot but I don't remember it being a weekly routine of the De Gea show. Not under Mourinho. We had plenty of clean sheets last season and lots of games in which we were comfortably boring (and won).

The whole 'team plays conservative because Mourinho hasn't got the ball playing defenders he needs' shite is a narrative pedalled by Mourinho cultists that like to deflect away for the truth of the matter. Which is that we are embarrassingly bad going forward. Something I've been ranting on about since mid way through his first season here. Funnily enough, I recall you telling me I was talking shite back then, too. It's only got worse, really.

 

[RedorDead21]

At some point, it really is about the players. When --
- the defense screws up and gives up goal #1
- the defense screws up again and gives up goal #2
- the defense screws up one more time and gives up a penalty for goal #3
- the midfield gives the ball away
- the midfield gives the ball away
etc
- the wing crosses to a defender over and over
etc
- the attack can't get a shot off
etc

If only Mourinho was nicer to poor little Martial!

All those things are true but Jose doesnt have the confidence of the board, the majority of the fans, several key players...when they didn’t back him they sent out the wrong signals to the players especially. The defenders know he doesn’t fancy them. Those players know 2-3 performances like that and he’s gone. It’s pathetic our club has allowed players the control SAF said was vital. But if player power sees the back of ZZ as well I think fans will finally say they need to take some responsibility.

 

[Treble]

At some point, it really is about the players. When --
- the defense screws up and gives up goal #1
- the defense screws up again and gives up goal #2
- the defense screws up one more time and gives up a penalty for goal #3
- the midfield gives the ball away
- the midfield gives the ball away
etc
- the wing crosses to a defender over and over
etc
- the attack can't get a shot off
etc

If only Mourinho was nicer to poor little Martial!

Are you implying that Brighton have better players?

I doubt that any of them would make the United bench. The fact that the team plays without confidence, doesn't work hard and makes so many mistakes is on the manager.

 

[peridigm]

Same conversation a season later. We have so many glaring problems that have not been addressed. Add to that a manager that likes to play defensive football, park the bus, etc... and we're playing to expectations.
Today was every bit the players fault as it was the managers. So many poor passes, touches, half-hearted challenges, and mindless trotting around midfield while Brighton were running their socks off and pressing the ball when they did not have it. Tactics aside, we just did not show up. The players should be embarrassed to collect their paycheck this week.

We need better players in key positions, just like we did last season, the season before that, and the season before that. CB, FB, and RW. We also need a striker that can get behind the defense or poach a goal. Lukaku is one dimensional and hardly ever wins the ball off the hoof. We've addresses our midfield but for reasons unknown have neglected to address the flanks outside of LW. We've tried to address the CB pairing but it has failed with Bailly and Lindelof. Those two together belong at a mid table club. We also need a manager that trusts his players. Jose does not trust this lot. That's obvious.

We'll be starting Smalling and Bailly against Spurs and it won't be any better. Question is, which players will Jose through under the bus before next week. Martial won't start. Young and Mata should be put to pasture. I expect Matic to be rushed back if it's not fully fit.

What I don't get is that we played the entire preseason with 3 at the back. For what reason? If preseason results do not matter, play the fecking system you plan on playing in the league.

Bottom line, we're stuck with what we got until January at least. Everyone needs to stop crying and start earning the massive wages they're on. If Jose does not get this current group firing before then and show that we can compete, I don't see us buying anyone in January. I have a gut feeling Jose could be gone by then if we continue on like we did today. We've not left square one since 2013 and based on the attitude of the players and manager, we're going to be stuck there for a long time.

 

[forevrared]

They haven't put any money where their mouths are, they've only taken money from this club.

We can always discuss managers and players. Tactics, style of play, whether play x is good enough but we'll go round in circles.

Last year we finish 2nd to a team and manager who doubled our spend. There was criticism. Because we're Manchester United and we should be winning the league.

But we didn't, we didn't have the tools.

And we never really will under the Glazers.. So like I say, round and round in circles bar a truly outstanding managerial and team performance over 9 months. The same pipedream Arsenal and Liverpool have lived off for the last 15-20 years.

Sure they have, but we've spent over £800,000,000 on players since Sir Alex left! Obviously it's the clubs money and not their own, but we're spending on players at a level that can match anyone bar the oil clubs and we've even outspent them at times. When we're spending that much, you have to wonder why we're not seeing more of a return and that is something I don't think you can pin just on the owners. We need a manager capable of getting results.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In four seasons we have conceded very few goals in comparison to sides in the rest of the league. Or in Europe, infact. It's because our defenders (the likes of Smalling and Jones, actually) are good at defending, in spite of the dog's abuse they get. Not brilliant, by any means, but good defenders. The De Gea save conversion gets bandied about a lot but I don't remember it being a weekly routine of the De Gea show. Not under Mourinho. We had plenty of clean sheets last season and lots of games in which we were comfortably boring (and won).

The whole 'team plays conservative because Mourinho hasn't got the ball playing defenders he needs' shite is a narrative pedalled by Mourinho cultists that like to deflect away for the truth of the matter. Which is that we are embarrassingly bad going forward. Something I've been ranting on about since mid way through his first season here. Funnily enough, I recall you telling me I was talking shite back then, too. It's only got worse, really.

The feck are you on about now? I’m a “Mourinho cultist” despite spending all summer saying I think we’ll have a crap season and I don’t like having him as our manager.

Dickhead.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Exactly. The problem here is our coach is a dinosaur. Give him Citys squad and he would get rid of probably half of that team. People keep banging on about David Silva, do you think Mou would ever play Kdb and Silva in the centre? He would have flogged off most of that team.

We just hit and hope. He will be gone by the end of the season.

Not just Silva and KDB. Sane, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Gabriel Jesus would never have been signed under Mourinho. Theyd be having Willian banging in crosses to Lukaku if they had signed Mourinho instead of Guardiola.

 

[leontas]

We have good enough players. We sit too deep and invite pressure in areas where the opposition should not be in the first place. I don’t think we need a squad overhaul. 2-3 players could definitely improve us, but it starts with the tactical and motivational aspect. No chemistry, no pressing, no desire. You can’t win if you have no idea what you’re supposed to do.

 

[RedorDead21]

In four seasons we have conceded very few goals in comparison to sides in the rest of the league. Or in Europe, infact. It's because our defenders (the likes of Smalling and Jones, actually) are good at defending, in spite of the dog's abuse they get. Not brilliant, by any means, but good defenders. The De Gea save conversion gets bandied about a lot but I don't remember it being a weekly routine of the De Gea show. Not under Mourinho. We had plenty of clean sheets last season and lots of games in which we were comfortably boring (and won).

The whole 'team plays conservative because Mourinho hasn't got the ball playing defenders he needs' shite is a narrative pedalled by Mourinho cultists that like to deflect away for the truth of the matter. Which is that we are embarrassingly bad going forward. Something I've been ranting on about since mid way through his first season here. Funnily enough, I recall you telling me I was talking shite back then, too. It's only got worse, really.

The problem would now be we have half a mou team...would lukaku be a ZZ player for example? How many new faces would ZZ want and I’m guessing he’d be backed if he said our back 4 is bang avaerage...wingers too....it’s like every 3/4 years we are having to write off 300/400m of investment as the players don’t suit the next guy.

 

[Rash Decision]

Mourinho seems to think Willian is the only right winger in the world. Barcelona signed a backup RW from Roma on the cheap(relatively), if Mourinho wanted a RW, we would atleast have made a bid for that guy.

I don't know what profile of right winger Jose is looking for anyway. Given that he has generally persisted with Mata there when he has Martial and Rashford, maybe he's looking for an entirely different profile of player there as opposed to what we fans think.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We clearly need a better manager.

That was an abject display.

We never looked like scoring in the 2nd half despite all our best attackers featuring(bar Sanchez).

 

[redIndianDevil]

Barca wanted Willian?

I'm talking about Malcolm

 

[RedorDead21]

Does anyone think Pep will be at City after next season? Does anyone think We’ll prob have another manager by then but would overwhelmingly want us to get Pep when he leaves city?

 

[Jed I. Knight]

Every single one of our players are underperforming at this point.

There's no point in pointing at the weak parts of our team / squad, because we no longer have any realistic notions of what our players could offer in a system that plays to their strengths.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Agreed. Fecking on the back foot against Brighton. Not good enough. Something needs to change.

 

[Raw]

Does anyone think Pep will be at City after next season? Does anyone think We’ll prob have another manager by then but would overwhelmingly want us to get Pep when he leaves city?

If Pep leaves he won't be managing another English club straight away.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

My favorite for a manager post Jose is Simeone. Simeone who has build his credentials over time and punches above his weight on consistent basis. His style is no different to Jose's. I bet there will be a lot of moaners even if we get him here.

Chelsea under Conte didn't play attractive football yet won the league. Can't really think of an example where you haven't got a world class team, playing great football without spending tons of money in recent past.

Atletico are able to attack. While Simeone is not the most attacking coach and we can agree on this, his team does have a plan for how to attack each team they are up against. And Atletico does not solely rely on counter/mistakes/coincidence for scoring goals like we do now. It is only in crucial matches against top teams that he is so extremely defensive/pragamatic in his approach. Also the players at Atletico has improved/developed over the years, while our players has not(bar Lingard). So i would not be disappointed if we were to appoint Simeone, and he has become more attacking in the last two season compared to how they were 4 years ago.

Conte, similar to Simeone and JM focused a lot on defense, but he also had a plan for how to attack. He also had Kante and Hazard in form.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Ah yeah, if only Mourinho had coached two centre backs to get goal-side and not make shit tackles when you're no where near the ball. It's so obvious!

I can understand these mistakes. Bad day in the office and that. Fine. Mou has been here for 2 years + and yet we still look inept when attacking.

 

[redIndianDevil]

I don't know what profile of right winger Jose is looking for anyway. Given that he has generally persisted with Mata there when he has Martial and Rashford, maybe he's looking for an entirely different profile of player there as opposed to what we fans think.

If Mourinho cannot identify a player other than Willian fitting his profile for 2 years, then the problem is on his inflexibility or his coaching skills. Look at Barcelona, wanted a backup right winger, tried to sign Willian, realizing that Chelsea are trying to rip them off, moved on quickly to another player.

 

[RedorDead21]

Exactly my point. When hundreds of fans want Giggs or Neville instead of him it's telling.

Then give the fans what they want. Is it ZZ? Personally I don’t think he’ll be the answer but I’m confident the players would get more flak under him if they didn’t perform as he’s just won 3 CLs...wouldn’t be all that surprised if fans said “but that was 2 years ago football has moved on”...mind

 

[Camilo]

Sack Jose. We have twice the quality of fecking Brighton - they're a nothing club - and yet we look and play like that?! The players are all plenty good enough to dominate most games in the EPL. Are they good enough to win anything? Well that's another step on isn't it - we have to match the coaching genius of Chris Houghton first.

 

[Sing you a song]

It’s just so frustrating all the way through last season we were crying out for a wide right player plus 2 full backs / wing backs we failed miserably so her we are again new season same problems .
The last window was an absolute disaster,this is the season that will blow the club apart .we won’t be top 4 this season and Woodward will finally begin to understand that without the football the club is nothing

 

[Kag]

The feck are you on about now? I’m a “Mourinho cultist” despite spending all summer saying I think we’ll have a crap season and I don’t like having him as our manager.

Dickhead.

I wasn't actually bracketing you as one of those people. The post may have came across that way. But the 'conservative football' line is usually taken in that direction. Basically, wank football = acceptable because we haven't got defenders that can play football. It's a load of shite and is disproved time and time again when you look at certain centre halves playing for other successful football teams.

Thanks for the flowery language. I'd respond in turn but I feel you've missed my point a little.

 

[The Irish Connection]

In fairness to Shaw he did well today and last week but we still desperately need a proper, top class left and right back who contribute strongly in attack. I was disappointed when we didn't go for mendy.
We also need a top class left CB. Van dijk. And most recently Alderweireld or Maguire.
Last but not least, we desperately need a top class right winger. Willian, Douglas Costa or someone of that level who can really stretch the game with pace and power on that side. We have no right side really.

So yeah we need to be spending another 150-200m easily to have the level of quality in all positions needed.

But, I will also concede that the manager has to take some blame for things.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Our problem is both. We need better players AND we need a better manager to coach better football.

/thread