I think LVG did alright against top 6 to be fair. Not sure, but I think we were top or second on that imaginary mini-table.
“We need better players....”
- Thread starter LeftyBlaster
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
We need better wingbacks/fullbacks for certain (Young and Valencia must be replaced soon). Another right-sided attacker is a must and an adept ball playing modern centerback that's better or projected to be better than what we currently have (Lindelof, Smalling, Bailly).
Problem is coach and players. This team is a feckfest with no identity whatsoever and no style of play. The manager and the players have a lot to answer for. Getting pretty sick of it now to be completely honest. The amount of money thrown around and we have zero identity. It’s depressing.
Luckily enough I’m a huge football fan and don’t need to just rely on what United do. Otherwise I would be in for a long season.
Luckily enough I’m a huge football fan and don’t need to just rely on what United do. Otherwise I would be in for a long season.
there's a lot of drama today - simply wouldn't have happened had Dalot been fit
#oursaviour
#oursaviour
The players have a better ceiling than Mourinho to be honest. This is the farthest, he can take them.
Arsenal had Wenger who was past it and didn't spend money to top it off. Spurs don't spend much money in comparison to United. Liverpool almost won the title playing attacking football, but they let it slip. They have now spent money to where you can criticize them if they don't start winning soon.
I'm not against defensive football. Hey, if that type of football can get United to win the league I'll be for it. However, if there is no instant success, I really don't want defensive football. We've had years and years of boring football so forgive me for wanting to be spared of boredom for a few more years.
Bit of a weird argument that, when that team 3 years ago had players like Hazard, Willian and Fabregas in it and had won the league the year before.
I'd say that Conte found a system that suited the players they had perfectly. We seem miles off doing that.
We need both better players and players who are a better fit to how the manager wants us to play.
We a have a mish mash of players that suit different styles:
Very few in the squad suit a high energy pressing game or a possession based approach.
We have centre backs neither good on the ball or great at defending.
Full backs neither great in attack or strong in defence.
A group of midfielders that don't suit a possession game.
Mata who only suits a slow possession team.
Forwards that can't play wide.
It's all a bit of a mess.
We don’t need better players. We have players with talent. What we need is players with talent that will put a shift in and not bottle it at the first sign of trouble. Yes the tactics suck. Yes the defensive mindset is dull. So what? How does that stop them being able to pass the ball about? Sorry but while not blameless, isn’t the reason we lost today.
Today was a massive embarrassment, fecking Brighton, come on get a grip, the stiffs should be beating them!
Lindeloff and Bailly are just not premier league players. Bailly has no positional sense and dives in and sells himself short far too many times.
Lindeloff is so soft and shite in the air it is unbelieveable. He gets bullied by the opposing strikers in every game he plays, shocking buy and total waste of money.
Top 6 is our challenge now and getting shut of Jose soon as will help.
Lindeloff and Bailly are just not premier league players. Bailly has no positional sense and dives in and sells himself short far too many times.
Lindeloff is so soft and shite in the air it is unbelieveable. He gets bullied by the opposing strikers in every game he plays, shocking buy and total waste of money.
Top 6 is our challenge now and getting shut of Jose soon as will help.
Do we though, or do we have a lot of very over rated players by some? I do kind of agree with you not judging on two games but Pogba and Sanchez are two players with great quality who havent performed and Pogba saying his mindset wasnt right today, half think admire his honesty, other half of me thinks wtf is he saying that for and if true, two games in that is terrible.
But whether it is a mental or talent thing, we have over rated so many players the last few years. Januzaj and Morrison for example, both hugely rated and what have they done since leaving the club? (Yes Morrison had talent of course). Rashford broke through with a great start, I had doubts if he was the real deal....is he really all that good? Of course as fans we all want to see youth players breaking through and we are a huge club for it, but there hasnt been a very good one for a while, Lingard has probably been the best, of course there was Pogba.
But I think post Fergie, our signings have generally been poor choices I thought at the time
Mata - Didnt want, didnt fit sytem
Fellaini - Didnt want, not a Man Utd type player
Falcao - Was excited but worried about the injury
DiMaria - Exciting but would have preferred Sanchez
Luke Shaw - Good signing
Herrera - Average signing
Rojo - Didnt want, average, not what we needed
Blind - Didnt want, average, not what we needed
Schneiderlin - Didnt want, hugely over rated
Depay - Didnt want, hugely over rated
Darmian - Didnt know much about
Martial - Excited, never heard of, but kind of signing I like....Massively over paid though
Bastian - Been a crock for over 18 months, didnt want
ROmero - Good signing, too good to be a number 2 though
Pogba - Great signing
Ibrahimovic - Great short term signing
Mkhitarian - Good signing
Bailly - Excited, didnt know much about
Lukaku - DIdnt want, massively over rated, no touch, massively over paid
Lindelof - DIdnt want, nothing more than average when we needed quality
Matic - Decent but not exciting siging
Sanchez - Good signing, should have done it two years earlier though...good to get rid of Mkhi tho
Dalot - Exciting signing
Fred - Good signing not seen that much of
That is 24 players we have signed over six summer/jan windows. Over 1/3 of them I really didnt want us to sign. Less than half were exciting signings (and in all honesty half of those were because they were players I knew little of so excitement of mystery). I think lookign at all those windows.
For me only two of those windows look like a good bunch of signings, Mourinhos first window, and his last that has just gone...though its barely a third of what we needed to do incoming.
I look at that list and think £500m has been spent on injured players, over rated players, really bang average players only about 1/4 of those signings really stand out to me and only LVG really addressed all the problems we had, problem beign he addressed them really badly, Mourinho suffered for it.
SO yes Mourinho for me isnt the right fit for us, he never was but we desperately needed a quality manager to deliver quickly, which he hasnt. For me he has never been the same great manager he used to be since he went to Madrid, let alone his style of play not being right for us.
Yes we have a board that have the wrong person in Woodward over seeing our tranfers, have taken money out of the club, seem more interested in commercial success to line there own pockets as long as we make the champions league.
But do you really think our squad is a proper Manchester United side and is good enough when at the moment there isnt a single defender that has quality and consistency, no centre back partnership anywhere near a Bruce/Pallister, Vidc/Ferdinand, Stam/JOhnsen. No full back anywhere near Heinze, let alone Irwin, Neville, Evra.
A side that is realiant often in games on Fellaini....for his aerial prowess. A side that has Mata often at right wing when it was obvious it wouldnt work before we even signed him....yet five years later he is still a regular starter there. A side that has a striker incapable of holding the ball up or linking up play. A side with a young player who looks like he doesnt want to be here, that we are all worried about losing....when we have paid £50m for him and 3 years later he is still barely performing.
Go back between 1994-2011 and 17 seasons of football, and bar DeGea name a player you would even consider putting in any of those sides?.....We DO need better players
Overrated or not, the players we had today should be beating relegation fodder. This is not a one-off occasion, we have consistently been outwitted by these teams. When we used to lose against such teams under Fergie, or even when other Top 6 teams lose against these kind of teams, its like a smash and grab or lucky win. But we are outplayed in these games quite often. It has a lot to do with the tactics and manager more so than the players.
How about Fergie managing the current squad and Jose or some other managing the 94-2011 squads?. How do you think it will turn out.
The players in the previous years were playing way above their level because of the manager, heck we even won a title with cleverley and anderson in Midfield. This squad is playing at around 60-75% of their capabilities.
I agree we need better players, but these players can still play better than they are currently playing. We lost so many silly points last season in games like these. Brighton, Huddersfield, Newcastle, Stoke, etc., We could/should have hit the 90 mark if not for games today.
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The problem with that line of thinking is that it judges players like they're isolated from managers and the system as a whole. Coaches do have a hand in how good players look. We don't really know how those same players would perform for United. Of course you can't imagine our players to get in a side that won a lot of things. They were a well functioning side.
Great post. I agree with most of it. Its not that I think we dont need better players so much as I think what we have can do a lot better than what they showed today and far too often last season.
We need to improve our squad, but it's still good enough to do much better.
Mourinho isn't getting the best out of this group. In 2 seasons we've only had de gea on the top of his game, no one else comes close.
I really don't think they're buying what he's selling, and it's a matter of time before the whole thing implodes.
Mourinho isn't getting the best out of this group. In 2 seasons we've only had de gea on the top of his game, no one else comes close.
I really don't think they're buying what he's selling, and it's a matter of time before the whole thing implodes.
TBF his reasoning was that Evans is a seasoned performer and leader personality, so him next to Maguire reminds him of the Huth/Morgan title winning partnership. It's easy to see how you'd choose that over the current horribly hit-and-miss displays of our centre backs. Heck right now even I'd throw him in alongside Bailly being both a leader and reasonable ball-player (Guardiola wanted him summer before last).
I watched Wolves vs Leicester yesterday and I have to say Pereira looks a beast, he's not better than Valencia was in his prime but currently has far more physicality and also defensive nous being a natural full back so I'd make him our starter.
Then Chilwell vs Shaw is probably just a toss up between who you support; my gut says Shaw as his best is fantastic but Chilwell has been by far the more consistent performer over the past few years and is 2 years younger, so against my will I actually think there's a stronger case for Chilwell. MOTM vs Wolves.
Point being it's horrible that a Leicester fan even has the gall (but also fair reasoning imo) to say this.
We’ve been saying that ever since SAF retired. Would a different system suit certain players better? Probably... it won’t suddenly transform them into world class players though. Both parties have to be blamed ultimately. We still have a lot of dross at this club. Our glaring weaknesses were once again on display today. The fact we didn’t address the RW situation this summer is a disgrace.
You picked the worst possible day to make this thread. When our best CB is Bailly you know we desperately need better players.
Bailly had a really bad day. But it still doesn’t detract from our inability to create chances on a consistent basis against a side like Brighton. Bailly is not the problem. If you think he is, let me remind you who signed him. I’ll give you 3 guesses.
I am not arguing with the fact that we should do a lot better and play better football. I am saying that you made this thread at the worst possible time because essentially every player performed really bad today, some of them like Bailly had a Sunday league level of "performance".
We do need better players. We finished 19 points behind City last season. Even winning the league, City splash the cash on Mahrez, a player who knows what it takes to win the Prem.
We buy a player from the Ukranian league, a player from the Portuguese league, and a Championship sides back-up goalkeeper. We could have got experienced Prem CB's in Maguire and Alderweild but Woodward said no. I wonder how he's feeling about that decision tonight.
We buy a player from the Ukranian league, a player from the Portuguese league, and a Championship sides back-up goalkeeper. We could have got experienced Prem CB's in Maguire and Alderweild but Woodward said no. I wonder how he's feeling about that decision tonight.
I agree, it doesn't detract from our inability to create chances, but it's a hell of a lot easier to come back from 2-1 down then it is from 3-1 down. Doesn't matter how many you score if you can't stop them scoring, just ask Arsenal fans.
Why are the players so unmotivated? The pink elephant in the room is that the decline in United's performances for the past years has been concomitant with City's increasing dominance in the league. It is only natural that United get compared to City a lot more than the other top 6 clubs, mainly because of the regional proximity, and because of the Pep vs Jose thing. The rivalry is real, and atm it has more urgency than our rivalry with Pool. Additionally, it is beginning to look more and more toxic for United.
Since Pep came in, he has added the likes of Sane, Mendy, Walker, Stones, Gundogan, Jesus, Ederson, B.Silva to what was already a strong squad (which had underperformed under Pellegrini). United's transfer policy cannot compete with City's budget-wise -- no other club can, bar maybe Real, Barca, PSG. But City clearly have also had a better transfer strategy: prices for players like Mendy, Walker or Sane have increased radically compared to two summers ago. Buying such players now ("fullbacks for striker money", in Jose's words) would require us to outspend City massively. In today's market, two proven quality fullbacks would cost us not £90 but £130 million. We cannot catch up with that maneuver anymore. Our transfer budget this summer was little more than half of that.
But if Jose consistently gives out the image that United need more quality in the squad in order to be able to compete with City, and subsequently these players are not brought in by Woodward, this inevitably results in a low team morale. Last year we started the season with largely the same squad as we did now, yet the fresh additions of Matic and Lukaku created the necessary self-confidence that we would be able to compete with City that season. (Which, in the end, proved out not to be the case.)
When Jose continues to throw his own players under the bus in his public statements, the inferiority complex of our squad will only get worse. No squad could handle that pressure on a week to week basis. United has inexplicable off-days against mid- and lower-table teams, because they cannot muster up the necessary motivation and confidence, knowing that City or Pool would completely trash those teams whereas our players will have to struggle and fight in order to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 result. The following question may sound ridiculous, but I don't think it is: if City hadn't won 6-1 against Huddersfield in the afternoon, would United even have lost the game against Brighton? My estimation would be that if City would have either lost or drawn against Huddersfield, United would have won against Brighton.
Maybe Jose has learned a good lesson now, I hope, in refusing to criticize his own players publicly. But the underlying problem is that he cannot give United its footballing identity back, seeing that we have begun to look at ourselves only through City's rearview mirror. Jose himself is feeling inferior to Pep/City -- it doesn't take a trained psychologist to see that. Every mistake that happens on the field puts him to shame, which is why he is usually so eager to deflect culpability onto the players, even when there is no occasion to do so. But if Jose now says: I'm not going to express this type of criticism anymore simply because I'm not allowed to, then he clearly has not changed: he is merely keeping his negative attitude implicit. Something far more serious has to happen, which is that United -- manager, players, fans -- starts to compare themselves only to themselves rather than other teams, and try to become better from that (reflexive, rather than jealous) attitude. There is a huge difference here between being self-critical and merely feeling inferior; one is productive while the other is counter-productive.
Since Pep came in, he has added the likes of Sane, Mendy, Walker, Stones, Gundogan, Jesus, Ederson, B.Silva to what was already a strong squad (which had underperformed under Pellegrini). United's transfer policy cannot compete with City's budget-wise -- no other club can, bar maybe Real, Barca, PSG. But City clearly have also had a better transfer strategy: prices for players like Mendy, Walker or Sane have increased radically compared to two summers ago. Buying such players now ("fullbacks for striker money", in Jose's words) would require us to outspend City massively. In today's market, two proven quality fullbacks would cost us not £90 but £130 million. We cannot catch up with that maneuver anymore. Our transfer budget this summer was little more than half of that.
But if Jose consistently gives out the image that United need more quality in the squad in order to be able to compete with City, and subsequently these players are not brought in by Woodward, this inevitably results in a low team morale. Last year we started the season with largely the same squad as we did now, yet the fresh additions of Matic and Lukaku created the necessary self-confidence that we would be able to compete with City that season. (Which, in the end, proved out not to be the case.)
When Jose continues to throw his own players under the bus in his public statements, the inferiority complex of our squad will only get worse. No squad could handle that pressure on a week to week basis. United has inexplicable off-days against mid- and lower-table teams, because they cannot muster up the necessary motivation and confidence, knowing that City or Pool would completely trash those teams whereas our players will have to struggle and fight in order to grind out a 1-0 or 2-1 result. The following question may sound ridiculous, but I don't think it is: if City hadn't won 6-1 against Huddersfield in the afternoon, would United even have lost the game against Brighton? My estimation would be that if City would have either lost or drawn against Huddersfield, United would have won against Brighton.
Maybe Jose has learned a good lesson now, I hope, in refusing to criticize his own players publicly. But the underlying problem is that he cannot give United its footballing identity back, seeing that we have begun to look at ourselves only through City's rearview mirror. Jose himself is feeling inferior to Pep/City -- it doesn't take a trained psychologist to see that. Every mistake that happens on the field puts him to shame, which is why he is usually so eager to deflect culpability onto the players, even when there is no occasion to do so. But if Jose now says: I'm not going to express this type of criticism anymore simply because I'm not allowed to, then he clearly has not changed: he is merely keeping his negative attitude implicit. Something far more serious has to happen, which is that United -- manager, players, fans -- starts to compare themselves only to themselves rather than other teams, and try to become better from that (reflexive, rather than jealous) attitude. There is a huge difference here between being self-critical and merely feeling inferior; one is productive while the other is counter-productive.
I completely agree with everything you are saying. Ferguson was of course one of the best if not the best "Man managers" of all time, which raised the levels as his last title winning side was a very poor one and was playing pretty poor football too, Van Persie was inspired thankfully. I do think the Mourinho of that period before 2010 would have done far far better than the Mourinho of now though, especially with better players.
But the bar has raised from Fergies last couple of years, there are two or three sides far better than the City one we beat in his last season. I agree management and has been poor and rather than poor, tactics just arent what we want to see for our club.....same token, point I am making is so many of the purchases personally I dont either. In five years since Fergie retired very little has been done well....except commerically, which says a lot in itself
No.
We need new management.
We need new management.
Yes that is certainly true with a lot of them, interestingly I think most of those that havent performed at all are actually the signing we have made SINCE Moyes. Fellaini and Mata and Herrera (he was pretty much a Moyes move really) give there all, I just dont think the qualities fit out side. PLayers like Young, Valencia, Smalling, JOnes all seem to have the right attitude and have been good servants if not great players but get knocked a lot. But look at our signings since Moyes, many have come and gone and then players with quality like Bailly, Sanchez, Pogba, Shaw have woefully under performed so far, add that to signing that were wrong and its no wonder we are struggling some what. In terms of consistant performance maybe on DeGea can really come out with due credit. I would add Matic and Lingard to that but its only been over one season so far
No style, plan, identity. Players looking lost and unsure of what they're supposed to be doing. Of course it's down to the manager.
The first goal was really Lindelof's fault and by now I really don't thik he's United material. But after the 1 0 we really looked jaded as a collective with no real confidence so I would really blame the whole team for the 2 0. The 3 1 goal was also down to Fred and later Bailly. Can we improve im some positions? Yes. But do we have enough quality to show more against feckin Brighton? That would also be a yes
I would like to suggest that United offer a contract to Yaya Toure to add more steel to their midfield. He can be signed as he is out of contract.
Toure can be of some help when playing teams with rough and tough players. he is strong enough to ward off those opponents. He has skill and vision. Looked like our midfielders were overan by Brighton because they are not tough enough. One of the summer misses was Xherdan Shaqiri who is better, younger than Mata and Knockaert. Knockaert ran rings around United defenders.
Toure can be of some help when playing teams with rough and tough players. he is strong enough to ward off those opponents. He has skill and vision. Looked like our midfielders were overan by Brighton because they are not tough enough. One of the summer misses was Xherdan Shaqiri who is better, younger than Mata and Knockaert. Knockaert ran rings around United defenders.
That's what some on here would make you believe. Ever since Guardiola came on to the scene, people have been exaggerating how much a manager can do to affect a players ability. Some think he is creating world beaters out of nothing and somehow controling every single thing they do on the pitch. Let's just ignore the fact that they've bought so many great players that they could put out a second eleven which could probably compete for top 4. Never before have I seen people blaming the manager for a misplaced pass.
That's definitely what would happen.
Thats ridiculous. We had played 1 game, were level on points and by your logic we lost because City won, but if City had have lost we would have won!
Whether City won or lost wouldnt have had any bearing. We were shit as the players are demotivated with the manager, devoid of any attacking intent (and now defensive capabilities as well) and simply think we can turn up and the name MU will frighten teams into submission, like it sometimes used to.
Whatever changes we're talking about on here, we'll probably won't see any of them happening any time this season
We should look to get in a DOF as soon as possible. They'll get plenty of time to assess where we are and what we have. I think this would be more important than signing any player in January or beyond. The signings and/or a new manager can come next summer once we have identified a direction we would like to go. Why is the DOF appointment taking so much time? How is it related to the women's training conplex? This club is becoming a mad house.
We should look to get in a DOF as soon as possible. They'll get plenty of time to assess where we are and what we have. I think this would be more important than signing any player in January or beyond. The signings and/or a new manager can come next summer once we have identified a direction we would like to go. Why is the DOF appointment taking so much time? How is it related to the women's training conplex? This club is becoming a mad house.
I don't want to be that guy... But Sir Alex won the league by 8 points with a midfield of Anderson, Cleverly and Carrick
Yes, we need re-enforcement in certain areas but Mourinho and his coaching staff have got to go.
Pogba - immense for France and Juve
Lukaku beasting effortlessly for Belgium and Everton
Sanchez - carried Arsenal on his back
Martial under LVG was our top scorer in his first season as a teenager
All of them seem lost under the coaches and manager.
Yes, we need re-enforcement in certain areas but Mourinho and his coaching staff have got to go.
Pogba - immense for France and Juve
Lukaku beasting effortlessly for Belgium and Everton
Sanchez - carried Arsenal on his back
Martial under LVG was our top scorer in his first season as a teenager
All of them seem lost under the coaches and manager.
In terms of individual ability this is one of the best sides we've had arguably since 2009, its definitely the best group of players since Fergie retired. Yes there are still improvements to be made particularly in defense as we've had some leftover shit from Fergie's austerity years and from van Gaal. Still there is no excuse for the lacking attacking cohesion we've seen from this lot and thats down to the manager.
I don’t know what’s going on, but it’s very hard for me to argue with this. Ugh
Fergie wouldn't have won the league against Pep's City of last season with that midfield. no chance in hell.
This is the truth. De Gea and Pogba are the only players that set us apart from Arsenal really. Take them out of the team, and that’s where we stand in the table. How so many are still in denial of that is quite crazy. Sure, a different type of manager would bring a little more out of these guys, but they’d soon demand replacements or face the same fate as Jose (who I cannot stand fwiw).
This rebuild is taking so long that the pieces that were put in are either aging or ready to leave, so yea just about the entire squad needs rebuilding.
Every club could always use better players but are you going to tell me O'Shea, Wes Brown, Park, Anderson, Cleverley, Evans etc are that better than the players we have currently? And yet I do rather start Park on the left than Martial or Sanchez.
Our biggest problem is motivating the current group to play like Manchester United players. Have you seen Pogba's highlights against Brighton? It's such a painful thing to watch.