Whatever is going on between Mourinho and Woodward is affecting the whole club and the team. It has to be sorted and if drastic measures have to be taken then do it now, before it is too late.
What exactly is the 'real' problem?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
No it doesn’t, I explained my point very clearly. Having a bad day on the pitch, and having it being twisted into something else is what the media has done. We didn’t have a bad game yesterday, we had a bad result. Yet, the wheels are comig off, he’s lost the dressing room blah blah blah. Trump says shit that isn’t true, I’m pointing at things and giving you examples.
How many times can you read or hear a thing before you start thinking it might be true? It’s propaganda 101, and it’s done to seek,clicks. How much shit is put in the papers we know to be false, yet is still quoted time and again? Why can people see that “sources” is just code for “I made this shit up” when it comes to transfers, but when it comes to everything else at the club, it’s true?
The media constantly talk shit, and Jose reacts to it which they then lead the story like it was an excited utterance? The media used to suck his cock porno style, now they love pulling him down. Pep is the golden boy now, but his time will come. The media love building people up to tear them down. This is a truth that is as old as the notion of journalism, yet some still won’t see it.
Decent piece by Rob Smyth on our current woes:
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/manchester-united-mourinho-chelsea-197052
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/manchester-united-mourinho-chelsea-197052
Isn't Rob Smyth the guy who in 2006 wrote that SAF was "shredding his legacy at every turn"?
Probably the best post i'll read here these days.
Losing 0-3 at home is a bad game when you're Manchester United, full stop. Sure some media tend to be over dramatic, that's why normal people don't read the daily mail etc, but there's no vast conspiracy by the media to feck United. The results since Ferguson left have been subpar. Not for one game not for five games, but for five years. Last year United finished 2nd in the league behind a record breaking City side. Who cares, you didn't win the league, ergo you failed.
Fact is, it's not the media that's making United play bad, they just cover the fact that they do. The problems start on the pitch and the media report said problems. They might be over dramatic, but hey, so is Mou in his cringey as feck pressers. I'm also not saying you're exactly like Trump, but when you say "sources" is code for "I made this shit up", well that's near the top of his playbook
Also, because I feel this can't be stressed enough, United losing at home 0-3 to any side in the fecking universe is a bad game.
Aye. Referred to in that piece.
Jose is given constant stick for buying 2 x £30 million central defenders. One of whom hasn’t adjusted to the premier league and the other has had a nightmare with injuries but is pretty good when fit.
Compare this with City. They had Kompany, Clichy, Kolarov, Sagna and Zabaleta. He bought Otamendi, Mangala, Stones, Danilo, Mendy and Walker. Then was allowed to buy a new expensive keeper and Laporte for god knows how much.
Liverpool had Matip, Lovren, Ragnar Lothbrook, Gomez, Clyne, Moreno and Alexander Arnold. He was allowed to splash 75 million on Van Dijk and a new expensive keeper. This was in addition to bolstering the rest of the squad with expensive buys.
Jose got Fred, a 35 year old Stoke keeper and a 19 year old fullback that no one knows how he’s gonna turn out. People expect a title challenge vs our rivals?! Woodward fekked him over.
Compare this with City. They had Kompany, Clichy, Kolarov, Sagna and Zabaleta. He bought Otamendi, Mangala, Stones, Danilo, Mendy and Walker. Then was allowed to buy a new expensive keeper and Laporte for god knows how much.
Liverpool had Matip, Lovren, Ragnar Lothbrook, Gomez, Clyne, Moreno and Alexander Arnold. He was allowed to splash 75 million on Van Dijk and a new expensive keeper. This was in addition to bolstering the rest of the squad with expensive buys.
Jose got Fred, a 35 year old Stoke keeper and a 19 year old fullback that no one knows how he’s gonna turn out. People expect a title challenge vs our rivals?! Woodward fekked him over.
We can't do that now though. Best we can hope for as as as additions or subtractions is in the January window. I'm starting to realize as much as I didn't want us to sell Pogba, I just don't see him and Jose setting their ego's aside for the benefit of team morale. Martial either.
Whatever the reason, we've seemingly gone back to square one post SAF despite having improved the past two seasons under Jose.
Appointment of 3 very different type of managers with either lack of depth or outdated approach.
Moyes - totally out of depth, clueless mid-table approach
Van Gaal - outdated possession football
Mourinho - boring defensive approach
There isn't any type of continuity for the rebuild process. With each appointment, we have to start everything from scratch.
Moyes - totally out of depth, clueless mid-table approach
Van Gaal - outdated possession football
Mourinho - boring defensive approach
There isn't any type of continuity for the rebuild process. With each appointment, we have to start everything from scratch.
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This transferwindow he was publicy undermined by Woodward. And the only reason he went public for lack of signings was to put pressure on Edward "monchi" Woodward.
Seeing as he was given a new contract in January and then not allowed to sign a CB, because Woody did not see the financial benefit of signing Alderweireld as he was not better than our own players or anything else is something one has to side with Jose on.
Mourinho has net-spent £315m since arriving - in just two years. Three hundred and fifteen million pounds! That's more than 3 times the cost of Spurs best XI.
The sob-story of being under-funded doesn't even remotely wash.
Woodward and Jose are neither blameless. Both have underperformed quite remarkably. While the Woodward issue is more related to the long term success of this club, the manager issue is short term. Changing the manager will only be a short term fix like the last two managers, and will end the same way each time.
If we are ever going to be challenging for major trophies then we need to change the way the club is governed, structured etc.
I was comparing us to our rivals for the premier league.
That doesn’t include Spurs who will choke as usual and finish top 4 or 5 if they are lucky.
I don't think you'll agree but clubs like us, Chelsea and City are basically under a philosophy of having to go for instant success. None of us are allowed to do the thing Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal have been doing over the past few years - paying less money for players and letting them develop. I wish we could.
It's why the under-funding argument does hold water in a way. We've overpaid for so-so players and still need to invest as a result. That's a problem City and Chelsea don't have because they've bought well.
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Your "non-rivals" just beat you 0 - 3 at Old Trafford. And "lucky" Spurs have finished in the top 4 for the last 3 seasons running: 3rd, 2nd and 3rd again.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee.
I totally agree that you've been trying for instant success, but I don't think that you have to take this approach. And it's this I highlighted in my earlier post as being the key problem IMO.
I think the main issue with our club is the owners and CEO's main priority is making money and not footballing success.
Top 4 might even be seen as optimum for them when you consider the amounts of money required to compete at the very top.
Top 4 might even be seen as optimum for them when you consider the amounts of money required to compete at the very top.
Hook, line and sinker!
Who did Spurs finish behind last season?
It was never a true 3-0 last night.
Our defence made big errors and Lukaku couldn’t finish.
players lack fitness...simple
1 season out of the last 3 … on the back of £315m net spend.
If you don't see Spurs as a rival then I'll leave you with that cosy delusion.
I would much rather see Spurs win it than City again or god forbid, Liverpool.
I just don’t see it happening with your squad depth. Good luck though.
We've got a lot of average players, a lot of negativity around the club, and no identity for how we want to play as a team or any cohesive best eleven.
A huge problem is that our squad and our manager are not matched. We've got a squad with a large amount of good attacking players and hardly any quality at the back, apart from the goalkeeper.
We also don't have Mourinho players. Players who play with a chip on the shoulder and play as an underdogs. We have players who, if anything, think too much of themselves and think their way better than they are because they play for Manchester United. I have no time for Woodward or the Glazers but so many of our problems right now are the manager. We got outclassed last night by a team who've spent £0 this summer.
The difference is, Spurs have a young dynamic manager whose used craft and guile to build a team that plays attacking high-press football. That connects with the fans. That works damn hard. It was very telling how many of the Spurs players sunk to their knees at the final whistle because they ran themselves into the ground that game.
We have manager who stunk the whole place out because the board wouldn't spend 70+ million on Harry Maguire. Who plays football that used to win trophies in the 2000s. It's not knee jerk or simplistic to say that if we removed Mourinho we'd see a very different Manchester United.
We also don't have Mourinho players. Players who play with a chip on the shoulder and play as an underdogs. We have players who, if anything, think too much of themselves and think their way better than they are because they play for Manchester United. I have no time for Woodward or the Glazers but so many of our problems right now are the manager. We got outclassed last night by a team who've spent £0 this summer.
The difference is, Spurs have a young dynamic manager whose used craft and guile to build a team that plays attacking high-press football. That connects with the fans. That works damn hard. It was very telling how many of the Spurs players sunk to their knees at the final whistle because they ran themselves into the ground that game.
We have manager who stunk the whole place out because the board wouldn't spend 70+ million on Harry Maguire. Who plays football that used to win trophies in the 2000s. It's not knee jerk or simplistic to say that if we removed Mourinho we'd see a very different Manchester United.
Jose fecking Mourinho. That is IT.
It's probably a bit of all the issues mentioned.
We have owners who are probably less concerned with the footballing success of the club than the financial performance. As such, they have naturally given too much power over footballing matters to the person at the club who has shown the best performance over the past 5 or 6 years - Woodward. He's lining their pockets and when they're sitting in the boardroom discussing underperforming managers and players, obviously he's going to look like the hero who's keeping the ship afloat.
Woodward, like any successful businessman, has an ego and clearly thinks his decisions about signing marquee players, approving or declining transfers and structuring the footballing management of the club is the route to on field success. It won't because football doesn't work the same as business and he hasn't the knowledge and expertise to make such decisions.
Because of Woodward's reluctance to relinquish power over such decision making, we are lagging behind well run, well structured, modern clubs on the pitch. We lack the systems and organisation necessary for medium and long term, strategic planning and decision making so rely on the short term decision making of an "all powerful manager". Only he's not all powerful because he can easily be hamstrung by Woodward. Even if Ferguson arrived as a new young manager now, he wouldn't have the same success under Woodward as he did under Edwards and Gill.
He might have a bit more success than this though because he's a better manager and better suited to the club. Because of the mentioned lack of footballing expertise of Woodward and the lack of a structure at the club, we have hired managers who are not well suited and were never likely to succeed. The desire for a short term fix has been shown up by rivals who have taken the more measured, modern and effective approach.
Jose has come in, already bitter and angry about events at previous clubs and has been given a job he was never suited to and with internal obstacles in his way. He has not performed well and has typically lashed out to deflect attention from his own failings. He doesn't inspire confidence in his players and doesn't appear to have established a coaching set up which has improved many of them. His antics have hurt the image of the club and alienated star players.
At the same time, and because of the internal failings of the last 5 or 6 years, many of those players are simply not good enough for Manchester United. Some don't have the talent, some don't have the mental fortitude and some lack either. The lack of a coherent recruitment policy and the rotation of managers who've valued and discarded different players means we've been left with a strange mix of average players. We're overstocked in some areas and barren in others and we lack leaders and positive influencers all over the squad.
The whole club seems a bit of a shambles at the moment and it's difficult to see who is going to fix it. The owners seem unlikely to have the vision to see what needs to be done and Woodward seems to lack the humility. Somebody at the club desperately needs to recognise that if we keep underperforming, keep playing unattractive football, keep fighting with the press and keep alienating those players in the squad with the highest profiles then the sponsorship deals and commercial success is not going to somehow rolling in as if by magic.
The key focus for change has to be the style of football we play. A clearly defined, well executed, attractive style of football (consistent through the academy, recruitment and the first team) will lead to better on field performance. It will naturally keep players, fans and the press happier and those factors, as they always have for this club, will lead to further off field success.
We have owners who are probably less concerned with the footballing success of the club than the financial performance. As such, they have naturally given too much power over footballing matters to the person at the club who has shown the best performance over the past 5 or 6 years - Woodward. He's lining their pockets and when they're sitting in the boardroom discussing underperforming managers and players, obviously he's going to look like the hero who's keeping the ship afloat.
Woodward, like any successful businessman, has an ego and clearly thinks his decisions about signing marquee players, approving or declining transfers and structuring the footballing management of the club is the route to on field success. It won't because football doesn't work the same as business and he hasn't the knowledge and expertise to make such decisions.
Because of Woodward's reluctance to relinquish power over such decision making, we are lagging behind well run, well structured, modern clubs on the pitch. We lack the systems and organisation necessary for medium and long term, strategic planning and decision making so rely on the short term decision making of an "all powerful manager". Only he's not all powerful because he can easily be hamstrung by Woodward. Even if Ferguson arrived as a new young manager now, he wouldn't have the same success under Woodward as he did under Edwards and Gill.
He might have a bit more success than this though because he's a better manager and better suited to the club. Because of the mentioned lack of footballing expertise of Woodward and the lack of a structure at the club, we have hired managers who are not well suited and were never likely to succeed. The desire for a short term fix has been shown up by rivals who have taken the more measured, modern and effective approach.
Jose has come in, already bitter and angry about events at previous clubs and has been given a job he was never suited to and with internal obstacles in his way. He has not performed well and has typically lashed out to deflect attention from his own failings. He doesn't inspire confidence in his players and doesn't appear to have established a coaching set up which has improved many of them. His antics have hurt the image of the club and alienated star players.
At the same time, and because of the internal failings of the last 5 or 6 years, many of those players are simply not good enough for Manchester United. Some don't have the talent, some don't have the mental fortitude and some lack either. The lack of a coherent recruitment policy and the rotation of managers who've valued and discarded different players means we've been left with a strange mix of average players. We're overstocked in some areas and barren in others and we lack leaders and positive influencers all over the squad.
The whole club seems a bit of a shambles at the moment and it's difficult to see who is going to fix it. The owners seem unlikely to have the vision to see what needs to be done and Woodward seems to lack the humility. Somebody at the club desperately needs to recognise that if we keep underperforming, keep playing unattractive football, keep fighting with the press and keep alienating those players in the squad with the highest profiles then the sponsorship deals and commercial success is not going to somehow rolling in as if by magic.
The key focus for change has to be the style of football we play. A clearly defined, well executed, attractive style of football (consistent through the academy, recruitment and the first team) will lead to better on field performance. It will naturally keep players, fans and the press happier and those factors, as they always have for this club, will lead to further off field success.
Expectations are by far the problem.
You cant enter discussions about winning titles with a squad like this. You cant win matches with the badge on your chest.
Look at teams winning titles, who from United makes those teams? DDG would make most but that's about it.
Finishing 2nd last year with these players was a great achievement. I would say top 4 this year would match that but it will be a struggle.
You cant enter discussions about winning titles with a squad like this. You cant win matches with the badge on your chest.
Look at teams winning titles, who from United makes those teams? DDG would make most but that's about it.
Finishing 2nd last year with these players was a great achievement. I would say top 4 this year would match that but it will be a struggle.
Couldn't agree more. I am absolutely convinced that we're due for many more years in the wilderness, far away from the top of European football where we want to be, for the exact reasons you've specified.
When Fergie came in, he completely changed the club from the ground up. As it stands, no manager will be given that kind of power, so it stands to reason that anyone who comes in is more likely to fail than not, because the circumstances simply don't allow for the necessary cultural change. Even if we appoint a director of football or similar, it won't change anything as long as those severly lacking in football nous, know-how and impetus keep inserting themselves into footballing matters.
I have no doubt in my mind that the post Fergie period will be remembered not by the managers that came and went, but by the one constant who persisted throughout the entire period of underperformance. "The Woodward Years" has a nice ring to it, I suppose, but in fairness I don't know enough about the inner workings of the club above the manager post to say that it's all about him. And either way, a board that let's a man without any background in football be tasked with the final say in footballing matters is being negligent in my mind. If I was an investor in the club, I'd dump all my shares unless I saw signs of a truly, significant change.
As mere fans, we don't have that option. Sadly, some might say, because it is depressing to watch.
While not the main issue, I have noticed we very rarely play the same starting 11 from one game to the next.
We have no consistency in the starting lineup. With that, there is less desire to fight for your place in the starting lineup. No real reason to come on as a sub and try to impress and force the manager into a difficult decison of whether you deserve that starting point, because there is an equal possibility you'll be in the first 11 next game, as there is as not being in the squad full stop.
We need to define an actual first 11. Something I feel the club hasnt had in years. There is pretty much only a handful on players who are generally nailed on to start every game. I understand the need sometimes to play certain players from a tactical POV, but we should still have a first choice 11. With pretty much all the other top teams, there first 11 is pretty well established.
We have no consistency in the starting lineup. With that, there is less desire to fight for your place in the starting lineup. No real reason to come on as a sub and try to impress and force the manager into a difficult decison of whether you deserve that starting point, because there is an equal possibility you'll be in the first 11 next game, as there is as not being in the squad full stop.
We need to define an actual first 11. Something I feel the club hasnt had in years. There is pretty much only a handful on players who are generally nailed on to start every game. I understand the need sometimes to play certain players from a tactical POV, but we should still have a first choice 11. With pretty much all the other top teams, there first 11 is pretty well established.
How's that explain the last 4 times Pochettino lost at OT?
SAF and David Gill both leaving. No continuity plan or a strategy has been in place since SAF left. We should have got Mourinho after SAF
Since SAF left we have brought 27 players in,
Some of these players we have overpaid for have, unfortunately, not been good/consistent enough for us.
How many of the above have been an outright success at Manchester United?
On the pitch there is no cohesion, no leadership, mentality isn't good (2nd game in a row we've conceded 2 goals in a short space of time), at times we just look poorly trained and can't get the basics right, our set pieces (corners in particular) are erratic at best. Appears that we don't know what our strongest starting XI is.
Since SAF left we have brought 27 players in,
Some of these players we have overpaid for have, unfortunately, not been good/consistent enough for us.
Moyes- Fellaini, Mata
1st season- Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Di Maria, Blind, Fosu-Mensah, Valdes, Falcao
2nd season- Romero, Depay, Darmian, Martial, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin
2nd season- Romero, Depay, Darmian, Martial, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin
1st season- Ibrahimovic, Pogba, Bailly, Mkhitaryan
2nd season- Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Sanchez
3rd season- Fred, Grant, Dalot
2nd season- Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Sanchez
3rd season- Fred, Grant, Dalot
On the pitch there is no cohesion, no leadership, mentality isn't good (2nd game in a row we've conceded 2 goals in a short space of time), at times we just look poorly trained and can't get the basics right, our set pieces (corners in particular) are erratic at best. Appears that we don't know what our strongest starting XI is.
Whoever the coach,what ever the style.
If a defender of top team , can't harass the opponent and stop goals,you are not good enough for a top team..Everything isn't down to coach ..
If a defender of top team , can't harass the opponent and stop goals,you are not good enough for a top team..Everything isn't down to coach ..
Funny thing fear, you can't buy it, you instill it. For the opposition, have lost theirs and for united, they seem to have found it. Takes time to turn that around and I'm not sure if Mourinho has enough time to make that change. We shall but see.
I don't think there's a tangible, or logical, explanation as to what's going wrong at OT. But when you have a man like Mourinho, someone who's won it all & isn't afraid to tell world about it, is reduced to a ranting, stressed out lunatic in a post-match press conference, then you have to wonder at what pressure level he, along with LVG, & Moyes, have/had to contend with. I suppose - unbeknown to everyone at the time - every trophy won by Ferguson was going to have a negative effect on whoever followed him. I mean, how do you even try & follow someone like him ? Every time you step out onto the pitch there's a big stand there named after the man in honour of all he achieved. To be measured against such achievements would reduce even the strongest minded individual to a crumbling wreck. Quite a few of the players signed since he retired are probably superior to those title-winning ones he left David Moyes. So why have 3 successive mangers failed where Ferguson flourished ? It's quite possible that the pressure seeps down into the players consciousness too. Confidence is easily lost, but not so easily found. Any unease & uncertainty off the pitch quite often replicates itself on the pitch. So maybe it's not the lack of quality amongst the playing staff that's the problem. Nor is it the manager. It's probably nothing to do with those who call the shots behind the scene either. My feeling is that it's purely psychological. A mental barrier that reaches right into the dressing room & offices of Old Trafford. I'm not sure Jose in his current demeanour is the man to bring in a positivity, feel-good, broom to sweep away the cobwebs & dust of doom & gloom that have settled at OT. But I'd say Manchester United really need someone who can shine some sunshine into the lives of all those involved with the club, & just as importantly, the supporters too.
David fecking Moyes
Louis Van fecking Gaal
Jose fecking Mourinho
Next fecking Patsy
The malaise runs deeper than the manager, open your eyes. The number 1 issue with the club is scouting and recruitment, our transfer record in recent years is appalling and ultimately that is how a club competes, by first out competing in recruitment and then putting it together on the pitch.
How many transfer successes have we had in recent years? Compare that to Liverpool or City. Our scouting and recruitment has been embarrassing and it shows with the number of losers we have in the squad.
It's extremely unrealistic to assume we'd see a better one.
The 'real' problem is the lack of Sir Alex Ferguson.
It's not a problem we can solve immediately unfortunately. It will take many failures before a solution is finally found.
It's not a problem we can solve immediately unfortunately. It will take many failures before a solution is finally found.
I dont think its that only right?
Real problem is we've found ourselves in a position were a guy like Woodward is striving for a quick fix instead of caring about the future of the club.
Mourinho can bitch all he wants, but he is a head coach, he's not a manager.
A manager involves himself in everything happening at the club, he doesn't just write 5 names on a piece of paper and then bugger off for the summer.
Mourinho can bitch all he wants, but he is a head coach, he's not a manager.
A manager involves himself in everything happening at the club, he doesn't just write 5 names on a piece of paper and then bugger off for the summer.
Because that's exactly what happened, of course. And the days of the manager being involved in everything at the club are gone.