Would United have won the league with Tommy Docherty?

[vidic blood & sand]

We were an exciting up and coming team that Shankly said would win the league within a few years, and then after a an FA Cup win over Liverpool, the Doc was sacked. Enter Dave Sexton........
Docherty wanted to sign Peter Shilton, but the club refused his £200 a week wage demands. Seems crazy by todays crazy standards. But with Our young exciting team, and Shilton in goal, it would have been interesting what would have happened.

 

[el3mel]

I know yesterday was pretty tough but feck sake, not to that degree!

 

[vidic blood & sand]

I know yesterday was pretty tough but feck sake, not to that degree!

Thinking back to the post Busby era and all the appointments seemed wrong apart from the Doc.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

My dad says no, not against that Liverpool team of the time, so I'll have to trust him. Doc's side were great to watch but Liverpool were a ruthless machine. The old man hath spoken

 

[Al-T]

Maybe if he'd never picked Paddy Roche......

 

[Moriarty]

My dad says no, not against that Liverpool team of the time, so I'll have to trust him. Doc's side were great to watch but Liverpool were a ruthless machine. The old man hath spoken

Tell your dad I think the Doc would have had us champions by 1980, Liverpool notwithstanding. We'd have built on that FA Cup win, added a couple of players, and mounted a serious challenge. But he's right that Liverpool were a machine. A machine that could back-pass anyone to death.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

No.

He wasn't pragmatic enough. His mantra of 'you score 3, we'll score 4,' worked against some clubs but wasn't clever enough to win titles

 

[Revaulx]

My dad says no, not against that Liverpool team of the time, so I'll have to trust him. Doc's side were great to watch but Liverpool were a ruthless machine. The old man hath spoken

United’s best chance of winning the league under the Doc was 1975-76. Liverpool only started to become a ruthless machine after beating United (and Dave Sexton’s very good QPR) to the league title that year.

Maybe if he'd never picked Paddy Roche......

Indeed! It was bizarre; Stepney was still playing well at the time. We should have hung onto Jimmy Rimmer.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I know yesterday was pretty tough but feck sake, not to that degree!

Lol.

 

[Moriarty]

United’s best chance of winning the league under the Doc was 1975-76. Liverpool only started to become a ruthless machine after beating United (and Dave Sexton’s very good QPR) to the league title that year.


Indeed! It was bizarre; Stepney was still playing well at the time. We should have hung onto Jimmy Rimmer.

He did all right on his debut but had a nightmare at Anfield the following week, then another at Highbury a week or two after that. I was at Maine Road for the League Cup match which we lost 0-4. It wasn't just Paddy Roche that night. The whole team were shocking and even Martin Buchan gave the ball away for one of their goals. That bad run came at a bad time too with Christmas on the horizon.

 

[K2K]

Didnt he get us relegated?

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

Didnt he get us relegated?

Yes, he was manager when we went down, though it wasn't his team. He broke the side up, got us promoted first time and then up towards the top of the First Division.

 

[diarm]

No.

He wasn't pragmatic enough. His mantra of 'you score 3, we'll score 4,' worked against some clubs but wasn't clever enough to win titles

I'd fight a real life bear for a bit of that mantra right now.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

I'd fight a real life bear for a bit of that mantra right now.

Definitely

 

[711]

I remember it being said that Docherty's was the youngest team ever to have played in the top division at the time, which may or may not be true, but it was certainly young. Attacking and exciting, I'd love to have those days back again.

 

[Mike Oxard]

Docherty put a ‘Cup Team’ together. Players who could turn a game on their day, but nowhere near the best in the league (bit like we are now actually.). So the answer is no, not a chance.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

I remember it being said that Docherty's was the youngest team ever to have played in the top division at the time, which may or may not be true, but it was certainly young. Attacking and exciting, I'd love to have those days back again.

Surely the Babes were younger? Not sure, but I would guess so.

 

[711]

Surely the Babes were younger? Not sure, but I would guess so.

Yeah the Babes were average age 21/22, I'm glad I hedged my bets!. Thinking a bit more it was probably a side Dochert put out in one particular week, but I'm buggered if I'm going to set about researching that. The point is he bought young, attacking, exciting players so he's one of the better managers for me.

 

[Revaulx]

He did all right on his debut but had a nightmare at Anfield the following week, then another at Highbury a week or two after that. I was at Maine Road for the League Cup match which we lost 0-4. It wasn't just Paddy Roche that night. The whole team were shocking and even Martin Buchan gave the ball away for one of their goals. That bad run came at a bad time too with Christmas on the horizon.

Yikes - so was I!

Yes that was a shocker. At the time Roche was blamed for sucking all the confidence out of what was after all a young and inexperienced team. The team recovered fairly quickly though; it was the awful defeat at Ipswich towards the end of the season that really killed it.

 

[Moriarty]

Yikes - so was I!

Yes that was a shocker. At the time Roche was blamed for sucking all the confidence out of what was after all a young and inexperienced team. The team recovered fairly quickly though; it was the awful defeat at Ipswich towards the end of the season that really killed it.

Yes, that and back to back defeats to Leicester and Stoke just after that. I remember the Leicester match because the Doc played Peter Coyne, a kid we had high hopes for. He scored too but never made much of an impact. In those days, any youngster that played for us was the next great thing. Shame we didn't have Jimmy Greenhoff that season.

 

[Addled]

Docherty put a ‘Cup Team’ together. Players who could turn a game on their day, but nowhere near the best in the league (bit like we are now actually.). So the answer is no, not a chance.

I distinctly remember that this was “an accusation” that was thrown at the Doc. The belief was we could beat anyone on our day but consistency was beyond us. I think at the time of his sacking this was probably true but had he been given time I think he would have won the league. However, it is very important to remember that the Edwards owned United at the time. They were not the type of people to spend money easily.
The contrast with today could not be more stark. The Doc had the attitude that his team would always out score the opposition. Jose hates the opposition scoring.
Attack, attack attack versus defend, defend, defend.

 

[Fitchett]

No!
They were a great team to watch, full of bold attacking football, with a real fighting spirit. But they were a touch naive. Think of a Klopp team and you won't be far away.
Liverpool at that time were the complete article, the same way that we were once Fergie had sorted us out.
So, we were a cup winning team then, but not a league title winning team.
Far better to watch though than the dross we've had to endure since SAF retired.

 

[SirMattlives]

My memory of the Doc era is a little less positive. He took us down, sure, and we played awfully that season. Not his team? Well, no, but he had a season and a half of them and never got much going so relegation was at least partly his fault, at least by today's standards. The young team that came through was exciting enough, great memories of Stuart Pearson bangin' them in, Gordon Hill lobbing it over defenders and catching the volley on the other side, Coppell bounding down the wing but I never really felt that squad strong enough to beat Liverpool and the likes over a season. The Doc was great for quip and sense that all was positive, and we could use a bit of that now, (and some of Martin Buchan's magic at the back) but his managerial career never really showed he could assemble champions. I'd vote 'no' but the thought does bring a smile.

 

[Sultan]

The atmosphere during Doc years was probably the best ever I enjoyed. Loved watching the team. Winning the league would have been difficult due to Leeds and Liverpool having strong teams.

 

[Mike Oxard]

The atmosphere during Doc years was probably the best ever I enjoyed. Loved watching the team. Winning the league would have been difficult due to Leeds and Liverpool having strong teams.

Amen to that. It was a lot of fun, but to be honest, life was more fun generally back then.

 

[Moriarty]

The atmosphere during Doc years was probably the best ever I enjoyed. Loved watching the team. Winning the league would have been difficult due to Leeds and Liverpool having strong teams.

Leeds were on the skids though. We beat them home and away that season. Sammy Mac scored a brace at Elland Road when they tried to kick us off the pitch. Liverpool were just beginning their dominance but I still think that, with the addition of a good central midfielder and centre half, we would have been more consistent. The addition of Jimmy Greenhoff the next season added more goals but the Doc never addressed the need for a midfield general like a Giles or a Wilkins. Oh well, What might have been...

 

[wolvored]

You have to believe we would have been close. He had a lot of young players Hill Coppell Daly etc along with a lot of scottish players, but finishing 3rd after coming up was a fantastic achievement. If only he could have kept his hands off Mrs Brown.

 

[freddie the red]

A team with a beautiful buccaneering spirit, much like our 95 lot, the complete antithesis of what we are currently enduring.

 

[Sultan]

Leeds were on the skids though. We beat them home and away that season. Sammy Mac scored a brace at Elland Road when they tried to kick us off the pitch. Liverpool were just beginning their dominance but I still think that, with the addition of a good central midfielder and centre half, we would have been more consistent. The addition of Jimmy Greenhoff the next season added more goals but the Doc never addressed the need for a midfield general like a Giles or a Wilkins. Oh well, What might have been...

Leeds were so physical and dirty. You're right I think they were ageing and coming to the end of their dominance.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

Yeah the Babes were average age 21/22, I'm glad I hedged my bets!. Thinking a bit more it was probably a side Dochert put out in one particular week, but I'm buggered if I'm going to set about researching that. The point is he bought young, attacking, exciting players so he's one of the better managers for me.

Fair post.

 

[Revaulx]

Leeds were on the skids though. We beat them home and away that season. Sammy Mac scored a brace at Elland Road when they tried to kick us off the pitch. Liverpool were just beginning their dominance but I still think that, with the addition of a good central midfielder and centre half, we would have been more consistent. The addition of Jimmy Greenhoff the next season added more goals but the Doc never addressed the need for a midfield general like a Giles or a Wilkins. Oh well, What might have been...

All true. Maybe if Holton had stayed fit and Brian Greenhoff had remained a defensive midfielder? Gerry Daly may have been binned off too soon as well; he was still very good for a declining Derby side for a year or two after leaving Old Trafford.

People have forgotten the immediate positive impact Wilkins had on the team when he arrived in 1979. We finished only two points behind Liverpool in his first season.

 

[Moriarty]

All true. Maybe if Holton had stayed fit and Brian Greenhoff had remained a defensive midfielder? Gerry Daly may have been binned off too soon as well; he was still very good for a declining Derby side for a year or two after leaving Old Trafford.

People have forgotten the immediate positive impact Wilkins had on the team when he arrived in 1979. We finished only two points behind Liverpool in his first season.

Good old Gerry Daly. Scored a pen against the Bitters in a League Cup tie and send the place mad. The Doc didn't seem too bothered about the defence. Houston and Forsyth spent most of their time upfield and even Buchan played up by the halfway line for a lot of games. We could never slow a game down and a player like Wilkins would have added an extra dimension. I always liked him, especially when he held Chelsea to ransom to get the move to United. The chavs don't talk about that much.

 

[lysglimt]

I remember it being said that Docherty's was the youngest team ever to have played in the top division at the time, which may or may not be true, but it was certainly young. Attacking and exciting, I'd love to have those days back again.

It was a young side, not counting Stepney the average was close to 22. At the start of the 75/76 season our most used players that season were:

Stepney was close to 33
Forsyth was 23
Buchan was 26
Houston was 26
Coppell was 20
Daly was 21
McIlroy was 21
Hill was 21
Macari was 26
Pearson was 26
McCreery was 18
Nicholl was 18
Jackson was 26

I still think this team was at least 3-4 quality players short of beating Liverpool.

 

[Moriarty]

My memory of the Doc era is a little less positive. He took us down, sure, and we played awfully that season. Not his team? Well, no, but he had a season and a half of them and never got much going so relegation was at least partly his fault, at least by today's standards. The young team that came through was exciting enough, great memories of Stuart Pearson bangin' them in, Gordon Hill lobbing it over defenders and catching the volley on the other side, Coppell bounding down the wing but I never really felt that squad strong enough to beat Liverpool and the likes over a season. The Doc was great for quip and sense that all was positive, and we could use a bit of that now, (and some of Martin Buchan's magic at the back) but his managerial career never really showed he could assemble champions. I'd vote 'no' but the thought does bring a smile.

I remember the day he arrived. I'd gone down to Palace with some mates from school when we got battered 0-5. Someone had heard that Tommy Doc was in the stands watching so rumours started to fly because we all knew Frank O'Farrell was on his way out. Two days before Christmas, the Doc strode out onto the pitch at Old Trafford. The place was electric and Leeds were the opponents. Willie Morgan crossed the ball into the goalmouth at the Scoreboard End and MacDougall scored. A kid ran on the pitch and took the ball off Lorimer and Clarke equalized in injury time. It was mental. Just to cap the Christmas hols off, we lost 1-3 at Derby then went to see Bowie play the Hard Rock in Stretford on the 28th.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

You have to believe we would have been close. He had a lot of young players Hill Coppell Daly etc along with a lot of scottish players, but finishing 3rd after coming up was a fantastic achievement. If only he could have kept his hands off Mrs Brown.

Was it him or Sexton who sold Gordon Hill? One of my dad's favourite players, the cockney Red.

 

[wolvored]

Was it him or Sexton who sold Gordon Hill? One of my dad's favourite players, the cockney Red.

Think it was Sexton but my memory isnt that brilliant on who sold Hill. He was a brilliant winger from Millwall if I remember right.

 

[Red For Ever]

Gordon Hill was fantastic, enjoyed watching him ( Sold by Sexton, not a popular decision at the time )

 

[Class of 63]

Yes, that and back to back defeats to Leicester and Stoke just after that. I remember the Leicester match because the Doc played Peter Coyne, a kid we had high hopes for. He scored too but never made much of an impact. In those days, any youngster that played for us was the next great thing. Shame we didn't have Jimmy Greenhoff that season.

That's a blast from the past, remember seeing him(on a school trip to Wembley) scoring a hat-trick against West Germany in an u15 international.

 

[Class of 63]

In answer to to the op, almost certainly, and if we'd signed Shilton and Colin Todd guaranteed, but we were run by tight Arabs then.

 

[reddaz71]

Now we are talking, that was a terrific side between 75-77 but neither strong or consistent enough to mount a title challenge,Liverpool back then were a juggernaut.