I'm not sure a 20 minutes cameos can prove whether or not he is ready? Looking forward to tomorrow night... I predict another hat trick
Mason Greenwood
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You're acting like u18s is in any way comparable to first team football. Lukaku and Mata would be scoring hat tricks every game in the u18s.
Scary, innit
He can 'do a Rashford'. I see no reason to doubt that, but I have no reason to doubt the management either. Only problem is sometimes football defy logic and while that is no reason to be stupid, thinking about the luck involved in Rashford's way into the team you have to sometimes give people a prematurely debut in the hope that it is not. The right timing might just be "too early" for some players. This kid gives off that impression imo. Mbappe did things at 17 too, a lot of great talents has done it.
Thing is, Greenwood showed more than Rashford for the u18s despite being younger. It seems like the "if he's good enough, he's old enough" isn't something people truly follow. Messi debuted at age 17. Ryan Sessegnon debuted at age 16. Morgan Gibbs White made his debut and got minutes at age 16-17.
All those players had better physical attributes to handle playing against grown men? They all had better maturity? They all did better than Greenwood at youth level?
In a hypothetical, how much better than Greenwood would a youth player have to be to debut at age 17? How much more physical maturity would a player need to be to get minutes?
He could well be a player but it wouldn't hurt to wait a bit longer would it? We have Sanchez and Lukaku who are ahead of him in the picking order and are struggling for minutes themselves. Normally I'd say use him as a sub in a cup game but our next cup game is against Arsenal so that's not gonna happen nor should it. He's gonna have to wait his turn.
He's going to debut age 17, barring injury. The whole point of the discussion is that people don't need to be "impatient" about him doing it right this second, and to trust the knowledge and experience of our coaching staff who actually watch him train with the first team. @Mr. MUJAC wasn't saying that as a cop out (and anyone who has read this subforum for any length of time knows that he has more knowledge of our youth sides than anyone else here), just as someone that knows how hard it is to make it as a forward for us from the youth sides, having seen many a talent come and go, and that our coaching staff have the player's best interest at heart.
There really is no rush. Whether he makes it here in the long term will be less about how many he's scored for our youth sides, or how early his debut was, and more about his mentality and maturity in progressing. Luckily, he has a great example to follow there in the form of our current number 10.
You've lost the plot in this thread.
Age is not a fecking cliche. What an idiotic thing to even say. People who are older have lived longer and therefore experienced more. Their bodies and minds have developed for longer. It's pretty fecking relevant.
Thanks for reinforcing the cliche
I think its a combination of "mental age" and physical age. The former is difficult to characterise and may only be possible by the coaches. The physical age is of course determined by your date of birth. Greenwood will be ready to play when he has reached the sufficient "mental age" to do so. When he is ready, he must then also wait for an opportunity to present itself in the first team.
When you're seventeen, age and age difference are pretty fecking important. Anyone who has gone through puberty knows this, surely.
Two injuries to first team forwards at the same time. Grab your boots Mason.
Give him a chance Ole.
Doubt it. He shouldnt play if the coaches think it is too early. We got a diamond here, i would take him on tour and see how it goes from there. Think pre season football against some average sides is perfect for introduction.
Think he'll have to, what are our options otherwise?
He already went on the preseason tour. It's not like people are asking him to be a consistent starter. I don't see how it's bad for him to start a couple of matches in a 2-3 month period.
He will start if he is ready, but i doubt it. The season isnt over yet, Ole wont throw the kid(s) on. I dont see it. Same with Gomes. The only one with a possibility is Chong, since he was on the bench previously and is the oldest of the lot.
I know it is exciting, but the only manager crazy enough to do that would be van Gaal. I loved him for throwing kids on and see if they swim, but he isnt here anymore.
He did ok with Rashford. Seems a similar oppurtunity for OGS to do it with Greenwood
Even Van Gaal wouldn't have started him if Martial hadn't been injured in the warmup. The rest is history.
Ole isnt the same guy, he will let Alexis, Lukaku and Mata play. I can see him throwing Dalot or Pereira on the wing before a youth player. Greenwood wasnt even once in the match day squad. The inclusion of him is only based on hope really. I dont see it. Big games are coming thick and fast and he fights for the permanent job, there is no time for youth.
Ole has brought Gomes off the bench since he’s been here. He has to promote a young player with the injuries. Assuming two from Sanchez, Lukaku and Mata will step into the team, we only have one other forward option in the squad.
Chong and Pereira will take the spots in the squad.
If OGS has no time for youth, then quite frankly, I have not time for him being our manager
He has shown some indications of bringing though youth players, but not enough and his loyalty to underperforming 'Plan B' players is his main black mark so far.
The 2 injuries and a series of poor oerfkrmsnfes by Mata (with Lukaku not far behind) have brought an almost ideal oppurtunity to give youth like Greenwood a chance. The main drawback is two tough games, but we then have Saints and Palace that are a good oppurtunity
I still have hope to see Greenwood this year, but OGS' selections in he Fulham and Burnley games are bringing doubt
Rashford was about 11 months older than Greenwood is now.
Get a fecking grip. Prior to the PSG defeat we had actually won all our games bar one and the draw wasn't down to lack of youth in the team. Has that actually passed you by? The injuries occurred during the PSG game so no justification for Greenwood's inclusion on the bench ahead of senior players.His time will come and bear in mind he was marked out of the Youth Cup defeat what makes you think he'd have success against proven internationals in PSG?
As for Southampton and Palace, you write as if a win is a given!!! Two teams who are resurgent and one which has beaten City away, and drew with us at home.
This isn't the forum for Ole bashing
And was played by accident. If it wasn't for the Martial injury, who knows when we would have seen him
Greenwood looks ready enough for me. Added bonus that he can actually perform the functions of a winger/ inside forward, in addition to being able to control the ball. For some reason we persist with senior players who can't do this
Some of you need to wake up. 'I have no time for Ole because he doesn't play enough kids' ? Seriously. Every single match till the end of the season is a Cup final for us. We are vulnerable as it is and you want him to risk it just to claim the high moral ground and introduce players who've never played first team football?
There's a difference between giving Greenwood 20/30 minutes when the game's won and starting him. If you think we can risk it against Palace away then you either got massive pair on you or are a tad optimistic.
There's a difference between giving Greenwood 20/30 minutes when the game's won and starting him. If you think we can risk it against Palace away then you either got massive pair on you or are a tad optimistic.
Being older doesn't mean he's more ready. Chong is skinnier than Greenwood, and has been getting outperformed by Greenwood, and his decision making isn't as good as Greenwood's.
Yes, but Rashford also wasn't as good as Greenwood was. By performance, Rashford shouldn't have deserved a chance until he got his chance. Rashford was converted to striker at age 17, and was struggling to perform in that new role. The following season he started to do well in that striker role (aged 18), and that was when he got his chance due to injury.
Greenwood's struggled enough with the physicality in his few U23 appearances this season, the PL will be even more brutal in that regard. By his standards, he's not even playing at his best at the moment.
No, but it does mean he has more experience and Greenwood's time isnt running away. Seeing Chong on the bench and not Greenwood, tells me he will get picked earlier if the coaches feel like throwing in a youth player. I think most of you got spoiled by Aloysius. United gives youth chance, but only if they are ready, it is that simple
I don't think he has. I feel like he's struggled more with finishing because the bus was parked, and Sbragia's entire side was struggling to create anything. His general play was really good as it always is. A bad performance for the standards he has set is just not scoring.
I know Chong is more likely for the very reason you stated, but I struggle to see how he's more ready than Greenwood other than the fact that he's older. And it's not like playing at 17 is some huge no no. Sessegnon played at 17 for example.
Wind your neck in and take a breath before you go on uncessary rants with invented claims.
- Our back up options have been poor (Lukaku central, Mata right) and the team has been weaker for it. We scraped a draw v Burnley, struggled at Newcastle, were able to coast with limited input against a poor Fulham and looked very poor 2nd half v PSG. There will be ganes where the margins are tight and having a sub or a rotation option capable of high performance, could be the difference
- PSG was not a game for Greenwood and Co due to the lack of playing time before. Cultivation is key and my criticism of OGS is the failure to offer starts or serious mins v Burnley and Fulham. They could have proven themselves as bench options for the PSG games and beyond, instead of us relying on the usual Plan B that many predicted would fail
- Saints and Palace are our relatively easy games this month, but remain a challenge. I agree that it is a risk playing youth, but so is playing a central Lukkaku and right sided Mata. At least with youth, there is a greater chance of something different happening, while there is nothing to suggest that the failed Plan B will be any different
- as for 'OGS bashing', you have gone of tangent. My only main criticism on OGS is persisting with the same failed selections, instead of giving youth an oppurtunity to succeed where they have failed. If you think that OGS should be beyond any criticism, then maybe you should create a thread for positive comments only
That was in the Championship. Now he is struggling in the PL.
Dont see why Chong plays over Greenwood. I agree it is too early to see him playing high pressure games but he should be in ahead of Chong. Sancho is a year older and has had time to mature in a much slower easier league. Greenwood should make a few cameos this season. In a way he is the real star of our academy. Citys star was Sancho the way ours in Greenwood. Foden is there Gomes and Diaz is a Chong level player. Players like Greenwood and Sancho have it in them to reach the pinnacle of football. I still rate Greenwood more than Rashford who was never extremely highly rated as a youth player and is still very poor in decision making. Thats where the likes of Rashford and Mbappe differ, one is already mentally and technically superior. Mason can be the same.
Fair point on the physicality. In response I'd highlight Lukaku's lack of pressing and movement, plus Mata's generally weakness on the ball and limited ability to run into space.
We are in a situation where we lack squad depth in certain positions, while there could be more ideal times for them to break into squad (e.g. greater body maturity), it is a good window of opportunity to make the 1st team due to the poor standard of competition
Can't see what we have to lose by having Greenwood as a bench option, particularly with the Lingard and Marial injuries
Well Chong will then be a promoted youth, which is fine. But ultimately, doesn’t have to be Mason, but he’d have to promote a youth.
I don't see how that's relevant given the context. He's still playing against men which is one reason why people have excuses for not playing young players. The other thing is mental pressure. Except nobody is asking for him to be the main striker and start every match. In the Sessegnon example, he's rightly taken a back seat recently so that he doesn't bear the brunt of the team's PL performance criticisms.
Finally, if we're noting the difference in quality between the Championship and the PL as the reason for why someone shouldn't play, then surely that factor is only dependent on whether or not the player is talented enough? Are you saying that Greenwood isn't talented enough to participate in the PL? That would be a fair argument if other 18 year olds who did not light up the youth teams got to play in the PL. Are those players that talented that they are on the same level as Greenwood, and thus it's necessary for Greenwood to play in the PL at the same age as them?
I don't think that logic is sound. Is Trent Alexander Arnold as talented as Greenwood? Is Skipp as talented as Greenwood?
Am I just being impatient? I just feel like a start or two given the injuries won't hurt him. I don't want to put immense pressure on the kid which is why I'm not asking for him to start every match.
Good post.
I have similar sentiments. Give the lad a chance and take it from there, particularly as our back-up attacking options are not performing
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