The Search for a Midfielder

[JPRouve]

Really not sure, what makes you so sure of that statement.

The games he played.

 

[bucky]

The games he played.

You haven't seen him for Villarreal then or certain games he played for Atletico. Otherwise this doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Yagami]

SMS forgot all about that mug. I remember people saying we should swap Pogba for him.

I watch Lazio a lot and whilst he's a good player, he wouldn't be the best CM to partner Pogba and he's nowhere near Pogba himself so, even though I like him, I don't think it'd be the most sensible signing.

 

[JPRouve]

You haven't seen him for Villareal then or certain games he played for Atletico. Otherwise this doesn't make sense at all.

I have and I don't think that there is a moment where you can say that he controls games.

 

[bucky]

I have and I don't think that there is a moment where you can say that he controls games.

Who would you compare him to?

 

[Ekeke]

Atletico don't play to control the game so its a weird conversation to be having. They play against teams like Leganes (14th) at home and have 44.6% of the ball

Thats their gameplan. To draw the opponents onto them and defend well then use the wide players and forwards to score on the break. So nobody controls midfield for Atletico because that would make them less effective.

 

[Bastian]

Atletico don't play to control the game so its a weird conversation to be having. They play against teams like Leganes (14th) at home and have 44.6% of the ball

Thats their gameplan. To draw the opponents onto them and defend well then use the wide players and forwards to score on the break. So nobody controls midfield for Atletico because that would make them less effective.

Exactly.

 

[RedEM10]

Raid Germany. Someone who can play ball in the middle of the park and someone creative like Havertz/Brandt of Bayer Leverkusen. Prices never seem to be as bad buying from Germany either!

 

[JPRouve]

Who would you compare him to?

I'm tempted to say Ambrosini, a defensively sound midfielder with good passing technique.

Atletico don't play to control the game so its a weird conversation to be having. They play against teams like Leganes (14th) at home and have 44.6% of the ball

Thats their gameplan. To draw the opponents onto them and defend well then use the wide players and forwards to score on the break. So nobody controls midfield for Atletico because that would make them less effective.

And that's pretty much my point, the CMs don't control games and in the rare occasion when it's needed neither Partey nor Rodri have been able to do it efficiently. All the playmaking relies on Saul, Koke, Griezmann, Correa or Lemar depending on who is on the field.

Though Gabi in his best years would do it.

 

[Yagami]

Atletico don't play to control the game so its a weird conversation to be having. They play against teams like Leganes (14th) at home and have 44.6% of the ball

Thats their gameplan. To draw the opponents onto them and defend well then use the wide players and forwards to score on the break. So nobody controls midfield for Atletico because that would make them less effective.

They're quite good at adapting to their opponents. I've seen them control games with the opposition barely getting out of their half this season, and Rodrigo and Partey have both been key to that. Obviously that isn't their main gameplan, but they are capable of doing it.

Rodrigo, to me, reminds me of a mix of Carrick and Matic. He has that calmness Carrick brings to the team, and Matic's strength on the ball to resist the press.

 

[Davicho]

Herrera mk2. don't need more workhorses. we're looking for good on the ball players.

Saul is about 10 times better on the ball than Herrera. A bit of exaggeration maybe but i guess you get my point.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Raid Germany. Someone who can play ball in the middle of the park and someone creative like Havertz/Brandt of Bayer Leverkusen. Prices never seem to be as bad buying from Germany either!

There's just the problem of Bayern. Most German players prefer to play for them and clubs seem to prefer selling to them instead of abroad as well. Both Havertz and Brandt have been linked with Bayern.

 

[bucky]

And that's pretty much my point, the CMs don't control games and in the rare occasion when it's needed neither Partey nor Rodri have been able to do it efficiently. All the playmaking relies on Saul, Koke, Griezmann, Correa or Lemar depending on who is on the field.

Though Gabi in his best years would do it.

This still doesn't explain what happened at Villarreal last season. He was quite clearly the most influential player on a consistent basis in that team. I am also not sure what qualifies as playmaking for you. Everyone except Koke, that you named, has less influence on Atletico's overall play compared to Rodrigo and it's by a good margin. Are you talking about creativity? I could bore you with numbers, he's the only Atletico player, who has a pass completion rate that resembles that of a playmaker. Even if you want to say that doesn't matter and Atletico aren't set up this way, it's fairly easy to project Koke and Rodrigo in a possession based team and seeing both succeed.

 

[RedEM10]

There's just the problem of Bayern. Most German players prefer to play for them and clubs seem to prefer selling to them instead of abroad as well. Both Havertz and Brandt have been linked with Bayern.

They can have one we can take the other

 

[izec]

We, as a club and Ed, need to know which type of player and midfielder we go for. So far, people just throw in names in here, from DM to CMs, box to box players to playmakers to holding midfielders. Not saying it is bad, but the fans are so widespread in their opinion of what we need, i hope the club knows.

I thought De Jong was the one to get this summer and perfect how i would like us to see lining up in midfield and playing the game, but that one has gone. I dont know what Ed and Ole want us to be going forward, but we cant go out and buy some random midfielder like Fred last summer and hope he comes good without a role or a clue how to fit him in.

 

[Devil may care]

Would Rodri really fix those issues? Is he really that kind of player? I’ve not seen a massive amount of Atletico and perhaps it can be difficult to see past how they look to play as a unit, but he seemed to be a gritty player who excelled defensively, who can also play a bit.

I've been underwhelmed whenever I had the chance of watching Rodri. Granted he's 22 and I might have caught him off his game. What is his buyout clause actually?

The idea of getting Rabiot for free is a good one that I share also. I think it would work with Herrera, Rabiot and Pogba.

He's better on the ball than he often gets to show at Atletico, and his qualities defensively would be a huge plus point, he's like a more physical Busquets IMO, ideal at the base as it would allow us more flexibility in the other #8 role. Rodri's buyout clause is €70M. which I believe is around £55-60M.

I would rather we activate Rodri's buyout clause too. Would be such a jizz worthy signing that I can't quite explain in words.

To be fair, I was hoping we'd be trying to sign both last summer and given the choice between the two, I would have hoped we would have chosen Rodrigo. Otherwise I agree, I am just not sure, whether Rodrigo would want to leave after just one year there.

He might not but he wouldn't be the first player to move after one season and I think we can offer him a tempting package, and with the buyout clause we can find out one way or another pretty quickly and move on if he's not interested. You'd have bought both Rodri and Ndombele?

 

[bucky]

He's better on the ball than he often gets to show at Atletico, and his qualities defensively would be a huge plus point, he's like a more physical Busquets IMO, ideal at the base as it would allow us more flexibility in the other #8 role. Rodri's buyout clause is €70M. which I believe is around £55-60M.

He might not but he wouldn't be the first player to move after one season and I think we can offer him a tempting package, and with the buyout clause we can find out one way or another pretty quickly and move on if he's not interested. You'd have bought both Rodri and Ndombele?

Seriously? What the feck are we waiting for?! I thought it was something like 100m.

LB: Alex Sandro
DM: Rodrigo
CM: NDombele
RB: Mukiele

De Gea/Pereira

Ricardo Pereira/Valencia - Bailly/Jones/Lindelof - Rojo/Smalling - Alex Sandro/Young

Rodrigo/Matic

NDombele/Herrera - Pogba

Fekir/Lingard

Lukaku/Rashford - Alexis/Martial
​

Out: Darmian, Shaw, Blind, Fellaini, Mata (unfortunately), Carrick

 

[ArjenIsM3]

They can have one we can take the other

Which one would you prefer? Havertz is more of a SS while Brandt is more of a winger from what I've heard (don't watch BuLi often)

 

[RedEM10]

Which one would you prefer? Havertz is more of a SS while Brandt is more of a winger from what I've heard (don't watch BuLi often)

I think Brandt, can play in a few positions as well as being productive in whatever position he plays

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Which one would you prefer? Havertz is more of a SS while Brandt is more of a winger from what I've heard (don't watch BuLi often)

That wouldn't go down well in England! Maybe UKIP supporters but not sure about Utd

 

[Ekeke]

They're quite good at adapting to their opponents. I've seen them control games with the opposition barely getting out of their half this season, and Rodrigo and Partey have both been key to that. Obviously that isn't their main gameplan, but they are capable of doing it.

Rodrigo, to me, reminds me of a mix of Carrick and Matic. He has that calmness Carrick brings to the team, and Matic's strength on the ball to resist the press.

In their last 5 matches they've had the majority of the ball 3 times. Only 1 of those matches was a Partey and Rodri CM duo - a match they lose 2-0 to Athletic Bilbao.

The other 2 were Saul & Rodri vs. Rayo Vallecano and, Koke & Rodri Vs. Villarreal.

A month ago they did beat Juventus 2-0 at home in the champions league with Rodri & Partey starting at CM, but they had 36.9% of the ball. So once again theres nothing to suggest that Partey & Rodri control the midfield more than combinations including Koke or Saul.

 

[Champagne Football]

SMS forgot all about that mug. I remember people saying we should swap Pogba for him.

It's called second season syndrome. Pogba, Ryan Sessegnon, Martial, Rashford, Leroy Sane etc It's a common thing for young footballers to go through especially after a World Cup in the summer.

 

[JPRouve]

This still doesn't explain what happened at Villarreal last season. He was quite clearly the most influential player on a consistent basis in that team. I am also not sure what qualifies as playmaking for you. Everyone except Koke, that you named, has less influence on Atletico's overall play compared to Rodrigo and it's by a good margin. Are you talking about creativity? I could bore you with numbers, he's the only Atletico player, who has a pass completion rate that resembles that of a playmaker. Even if you want to say that doesn't matter and Atletico aren't set up this way, it's fairly easy to project Koke and Rodrigo in a possession based team and seeing both succeed.

Controlling games and influencing them are two different things. Rodri doesn't control the rhythm of the game or its orientation, it's not a criticism, it's simply not the way he plays today or anyone else except sometimes Koke. And pass completion rate has nothing to do with playmaking, it's not because he has 90% completion that he is a playmaker or game controller. If for example you simply use pass completion rate and volume of passes Rodri and Casemiro are in the same range in both categories, Casemiro has more long passes and 0.1 less key passes per games. They are not exactly the same player but neither control the game.

The way Atletico control the game is by slowing it down without the ball, they defend deep, close the space and the opposition is forced to slow down. When games start getting crazy and fast, they tend to drown that's mainly because none of their midfielders are game managers, they are either destroyers or all-action players, no one has the tactical nous to actually control the game with the ball. When they themselves get the ball, the ball is quickly moved to playmakers which to answer your question are creative players.

 

[Devil may care]

Seriously? What the feck are we waiting for?! I thought it was something like 100m.

I thought it was as well, maybe we will make that move now Ole is in charge. Interesting looking at your line-up there that you'd already felt the diamond was the way to go, you were ahead of the curve on that one mate.

 

[bucky]

Controlling games and influencing them are two different things. Rodri doesn't control the rhythm of the game or its orientation, it's not a criticism, it's simply not the way he plays today or anyone else except sometimes Koke. And pass completion rate has nothing to do with playmaking, it's not because he has 90% completion that he is a playmaker or game controller. If for example you simply use pass completion rate and volume of passes Rodri and Casemiro are in the same range in both categories, Casemiro has more long passes and 0.1 less key passes per games. They are not exactly the same player but neither control the game.

The way Atletico control the game is by slowing it down without the ball, they defend deep, close the space and the opposition is forced to slow down. When games start getting crazy and fast, they tend to drown that's mainly because none of their midfielders are game managers, they are either destroyers or all-action players, no one has the tactical nous to actually control the game with the ball. When they themselves get the ball, the ball is quickly moved to playmakers which to answer your question are creative players.

I am well aware that mere pass completion numbers aren't indicative of a playmaker, that doesn't change the fact that most good playmakers (that play as CM or DM) have high completion rates in terms of passes. Which is why I used his figure as an example, why he'd probably succeed in a more possession based team. He has a high completion rate, despite playing in a team that isn't set up as a possession based team, unlike all his team mates including the ones you claim that control the game more than him. But thanks for explaining how Atletico are set up, I wouldn't have known otherwise. He's also not a pointless sideways passer, he definitely has a good passing range and can pick out sharp passes that break the lines. Claiming that Rodrigo did control the rhythm of the game for Villarreal last season is barely up for debate.

The Casemiro example is perhaps where we disagree. To me Casemiro has playmaking ability, not to the degree of Kroos or Modric obviously, but he is IMO helping to control the game nonetheless. Playmakers don't necessarily have to be creative attacking players like David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Lemar, Özil, Messi or Fekir. Is Sergio Busquets a playmaker for you? To me he is. Busquets is also the player Rodrigo gets most compared to. Why is that? If you don't take my word for it, why are Luis Enrique and Xavi seeing him as Busquets natural successor?

https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2018/12/21/5c1bfab0268e3e90208b4610.html

Do you like Rodrigo Hernandez?

"He's a superb player, and he would be even better in a style like Barcelona's. He has both things, he is so good that he can play for Atletico, taking the ball, pressing and closing down spaces. He has the Barcelona profile, I see him as top class, like Busi [Sergio Busquets]. He lifts his heads up. Uff, he's great. I think Barcelona should have signed him."

 

[bucky]

I thought it was as well, maybe we will make that move now Ole is in charge. Interesting looking at your line-up there that you'd already felt the diamond was the way to go, you were ahead of the curve on that one mate.

That had mostly to do with us signing Sanchez and thinking that he's at his best closest to goal (and hoping he isn't past it), Rashford and Martial not necessarily being pure wingers, who would still be able to drift wide, if we lined up in that shape and not being as convinced by the options for the right wing compared to Fekir, I think. Edit: And thanks mate.

 

[Devil may care]

That had mostly to do with us signing Sanchez and thinking that he's at his best closest to goal (and hoping he isn't past it), Rashford and Martial not necessarily being pure wingers, who would still be able to drift wide, if we lined up in that shape and not being as convinced by the options for the right wing compared to Fekir, I think. Edit: And thanks mate.

I can see where your logic was coming from, none of the forwards we have are really wide forwards (Martial being the closest) or wingers, and none are great as the lone #9 in a front 3, so the set up with 2 up top and a creative goal scorer in behind made sense, I think we were all hoping for a lot more from Sanchez. Is Fekir still your first choice for the role at the tip of the diamond, or just the most attainable?

 

[bucky]

I can see where your logic was coming from, none of the forwards we have are really wide forwards (Martial being the closest) or wingers, and none are great as the lone #9 in a front 3, so the set up with 2 up top and a creative goal scorer in behind made sense, I think we were all hoping for a lot more from Sanchez. Is Fekir still your first choice for the role at the tip of the diamond, or just the most attainable?

The latter, I think. IMO he'd still be a very good signing, but not as good as Dybala in that role for example, who might be available. Sancho has also emerged, who I'd prefer to both. What's your preference in terms of players? Where does Eriksen rank?

 

[Adnan]

I want to see how both Moutinho and Neves do against City. I'm not saying you are wrong but I want to see them against better players than Pogba and younger ones than Matic. This would give a glimpse as to how they would fare in the CL (if we get there). My feeling is Neves is certainly good enough, I've seen less of Moutinho... but my feeling is he'll go to Spain

Neves certainly has potential and is still young enough to improve further. But IMO should stay another season at Wolves to develop further..

 

[pascell]

Personally I'd go for Barella, has the right skillset to be versatile and play both Box to box and as a holding midfielder.

 

[cathari]

Declan Rice reminds me of a CB playing DM

That's it. We are not buying him. The last player we got that was DM playing CB have not work out great, seeing that he's been chasing the ball head first ever since he came to OT.

 

[cathari]

Youri Tielemans is an exciting talent that may be available. He will develop well in Leicester city under Brendan Rodgers.

Resembles Herrera, but maybe more technical and driven with the ball? At only 21, I think he's worth a shot, as longs as he doesn't totally bomb with Rodgers.

 

[Devil may care]

The latter, I think. IMO he'd still be a very good signing, but not as good as Dybala in that role for example, who might be available. Sancho has also emerged, who I'd prefer to both. What's your preference in terms of players? Where does Eriksen rank?

Eriksen would be my #1 choice for the role as he can also play in midfield and on the right, plus he's settled in and proven in the PL. My list of preference would be 1. Eriksen 2. Dybala 3. Isco 4. Joao Felix 5. Fekir.

 

[MUfreak]

All the talks about creativity in midfield we still talk up the likes of Ndombele, Rodri et al.

I think a player like Ericksen or Verratti is a must buy for our midfield. With the later, we get an all action pack midfield player, but more attacking onus from the former. These are highly creative players capable of playing multiple positions and will share creative responsibility with Pogba.

Instead of adding more hard workers I suggest we add players that are comfortable with the ball at their feet more.

I'd we ship out Matic because I believe he's done here, get in Ericksen or Verratti at any cost, Rabiot on a free then we are done in midfield.

 

[Judas]

All the talks about creativity in midfield we still talk up the likes of Ndombele, Rodri et al.

I think a player like Ericksen or Verratti is a must buy for our midfield. With the later, we get an all action pack midfield player, but more attacking onus from the former. These are highly creative players capable of playing multiple positions and will share creative responsibility with Pogba.

Instead of adding more hard workers I suggest we add players that are comfortable with the ball at their feet more.

I'd we ship out Matic because I believe he's done here, get in Ericksen or Verratti at any cost, Rabiot on a free then we are done in midfield.

We've not got a hope of getting either of those.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

All the talks about creativity in midfield we still talk up the likes of Ndombele, Rodri et al.

I think a player like Ericksen or Verratti is a must buy for our midfield. With the later, we get an all action pack midfield player, but more attacking onus from the former. These are highly creative players capable of playing multiple positions and will share creative responsibility with Pogba.

Instead of adding more hard workers I suggest we add players that are comfortable with the ball at their feet more.

I'd we ship out Matic because I believe he's done here, get in Ericksen or Verratti at any cost, Rabiot on a free then we are done in midfield.

Contrary to popular belief there are midfielders that are hard working, can perform the defensive duties and comfortable with the ball in their feet.

If we buy the likes of Verratti, then unless we get Kante as a protector, our midfield will be unbalanced since our team is not nearly good enough yet to control the game against the likes of City etc. If you are the superior team in regards to passing/controlling the game then you will not need as many "workhorses" in midfield (look at City and Barcelona), and players like Verratti would be a positive.

 

[Fer]

What type of CM do we need?

a) A deep-lying playmaker (Kroos, Pjanic)
b) A ball winner (Ndombele, Kante)
c) A creative midfielder (Eriksen, Fekir)

 

[Ekeke]

What type of CM do we need?

a) A deep-lying playmaker (Kroos, Pjanic)
b) A ball winner (Ndombele, Kante)
c) A creative midfielder (Eriksen, Fekir)

b) is weird. For example both City games, another Lyon CM won the ball more than N'Dombele. N'Dombele should be a)

 

[sideshow_bob]

Really depends on who we're releasing/selling & what roles we're after to balance our midfield.

If replacing Fellaini & loaning away McT then:
Complete Midfielder (Metronome)
1st Tier: Rabiot, Thiago, Cyprien
2nd Tier: Jordan, Rongier

If releasing Herrera & unconvinced by Fred then:
B2B Ball-Winner
1st Tier: Allan, Kante, Saul
2nd Choice: Ndidi

Next season, Matic & Pereira will be in last year of contract. If selling either/both this summer then:
DLP
1st Tier: Brozovic, Rodrigo
2nd Tier: Neves, Roca

If releasing Mata then:
AM (Right Flank)
1st Tier: Eriksen, Demirbay
2nd Tier: Ziyech, Fernandes

 

[bucky]

Eriksen would be my #1 choice for the role as he can also play in midfield and on the right, plus he's settled in and proven in the PL. My list of preference would be 1. Eriksen 2. Dybala 3. Isco 4. Joao Felix 5. Fekir.

I am not as high on Eriksen to be honest, but he'd definitely be a good signing. Don't think there's any chance there though. I am also not sure whether Isco would work with Pogba. Fantastic player obviously, but I think he operates in similar spaces compared to Pogba. The last season he played regularly on the right was at Malaga, if I remember it correctly. If we could convince him of a role that is more to the right, then I'd be all for it. Joao Felix I need to see more of, but the glimpses I've seen, he looks brilliant. If we are talking purely tip of the diamond, then it's: 1. Dybala, 2. Fekir, 3. Havertz, 4. James, for me.