[Cladistics_Fan]

This is the same excuse that keeps being brought up for both Pogba and Martial. Martial keeps getting doubled because of his lack of movement. Pogba just takes way to long on the ball and invites pressure from several players. That is actually one of his strengths. Because he is good at shielding the ball and getting out of those situations, and when he does, it becomes a massive advantage for us since it frees up other players. That's great when it works, the problem is that it fails a lot of the time and that's where his football iq comes into question. He needs to make better decisions of when to take on players like this and when to just release it quicker. I would also say that his positioning awareness on defense isn't as good as some of those top different types of CM's of the past.

For the bolded part, the following quote from Einstein rings true:

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

So, if it fails a majority of the time and his positional awareness in defence is lacking, what have we actually paid all that money for? For the bolded part in blue, I agree entirely with you however, he really needs to cut out the time he spends on the ball altogether. The pace of the game has evolved over the last few decades and players are getting faster and covering lots of ground quickly. He needs to change his game and use his "footballing brain", to get us back on track. Again, I hated Vieira with a passion however, he was a player with vision and he had buckets of it. He made the Arsenal midfield tick and this is something that Paul Pogba needs to do; make us tick. After 3 seasons in the Premier league, I have yet to see any consistent plays from Paul. When he does it on a consistent basis and helps us improve our league position, then I will change my opinion, until that happens, my opinion (to borrow a religious term) is currently in limbo.

 

[Majima]

Why has the thread descended into taking x player over Pogba any day of the week type levels? How is that objective, rational discussion?

Answer me this. How can it be universally regarded that our team needs resetting/clearing out and at the same time put all the blame on Pogba saying he's not pulling his weight, attitude is shite etc?

Like it or not, Pogba is the only player in our team putting up comparable numbers to the top players of City & Liverpool. No-one else in our team comes close. They avg around 2 for key passes/game and dribbles/game. He's on around 1.6 & 1.7 respectively. For key passes/game our next best players are Martial on 1.4 and then absurdly, Young, Dalot & Valencia.

For dribbles/game you have Pogba again top on 1.7 then a big drop off with Rashford at 1.2 & Martial at 1.1. What this shows is obvious. If anything, Pogba is the only one pulling his weight in our team. Of course I give leeway to Rashford & Martial as they're still young but still.

His 20 goals & assists puts him on a comparable per minute ratio to Rashford & Martial. Much better than our striker Lukaku too.

I don't really need these stats as my eyes tell me the same thing every week but I wanted to back it up with evidence.

 

[Canagel]

Yaya was great technically. See the video of his skills I posted above.

In his prime he was the complete midfielder. He didn't lack any aspect a midfielder will ask for. Pogba is definitely not a complete midfielder as far as I'm concerned. He excels at one area only and heavily inconsistent.

We are dealing with totally hypothetical situations here though. Here is another "hypothetical situation", for you. Let us swap Xavi and put in Paul Pogba as he is now. When a team like that who are playing tik-taka football, they don't want players to dwell on the ball for long periods. Also, with exception to Messi, every single player played with a single rule in their head; if their opponents have the ball, they had a set time to try and get the ball back as quickly as possible and this is something I cannot see Paul Pogba doing.

Getting back to my original hypotheses and replacing Xavi with Pogba. Are you really telling us that Pogba, in the same situation as Xavi, would be able to analyse before, during and after the ball has been passed to him, that he would be able to benefit Barcelona? There is not a hope. Firstly, they don't like playing long balls, secondly, you need to be able to have a mental picture of what is happening and what you are going to do about it. I have seen enough of Paul to form an opinion and that, against a few teams in the Premier league where he has scored goals (a majority of those penalties) he has lost the ball on many occasions due to dilly-dallying on the ball. I refer you to my previous post on the matter where he anticipates 1 player going towards him, and instead of getting rid of the ball, he invites 2-3 other players to surround him and he loses us possession.

So, what we need to do is get back to reality and say how we see it to be honest. He has some good attributes, but he is nowhere near the likes of other midfield players of the past. Further to that, we can hate him or love him but, I rate Patrick Vieira over Paul Pogba simply because he had more in his locker and when it comes to midfield battles, he won a fair majority of them because he had the bottle to take the midfield by the scruff of the neck and make it his own. Is this any wonder why there was so much animosity between Keane and Vieira; two players who would always stand their ground when the going got tough. Having Vieira in midfield was a major coup for Arsenal just as Keane was for Manchester United; they helped both Arsenal and us through a very successful period of Arsenal/Manchester United dominance.

I still see people having problem with PP's defending because he's not the type to get his shorts all dirty and that but he demonstrated in the past capabilities of defending- but not his best attribute. In one of our games I think Liverpool it was I saw him covering at LB because shaw was out of position. But other mids don't get judged on what they can't do like PP does which makes me confused when I read the debates. Why is the defensive side necessarily preferred over end product and skills? Why isn't all these other central mids that controls the game without offering what the likes of PP excels in not complete? PP best attribute is passing, shots, creativity in final third- defending and dictating is weaker attribute so he's not complete . Other mids best/weak attributes is the opposite but they're complete?

Furthermore I would even argue PP never really played in offensive teams that controlled the game so other mids were better placed to hide their weakness . If Modric etc played in defensive/non pressing teams would he have same controlling stats?

Conte, Allegri, Mourinho, Deschamps all of them are defensive and cautious managers- he still managed to be the main creative source in two sides and supporting creative in the other two sides. I think if he kept developing by the end of his career it's possible to rank him alongside some other top midfielders of the past. The criteria to be complete for others didn't seem to be the same for some reason.

 

[Cladistics_Fan]

I still see people having problem with PP's defending because he's not the type to get his shorts all dirty and that but he demonstrated in the past capabilities of defending- but not his best attribute. In one of our games I think Liverpool it was I saw him covering at LB because shaw was out of position. But other mids don't get judged on what they can't do like PP does which makes me confused when I read the debates. Why is the defensive side necessarily preferred over end product and skills? Why isn't all these other central mids that controls the game without offering what the likes of PP excels in not complete? PP best attribute is passing, shots, creativity in final third- defending and dictating is weaker attribute so he's not complete . Other mids best/weak attributes is the opposite but they're complete?

Furthermore I would even argue PP never really played in offensive teams that controlled the game so other mids were better placed to hide their weakness . If Modric etc played in defensive/non pressing teams would he have same controlling stats?

Conte, Allegri, Mourinho, Deschamps all of them are defensive and cautious managers- he still managed to be the main creative source in two sides and supporting creative in the other two sides. I think if he kept developing by the end of his career it's possible to rank him alongside some other top midfielders of the past. The criteria to be complete for others didn't seem to be the same for some reason.

I have yet to read a rebuttal to my post considering it was about how he plays, and not necessarily about the defensive side of things. Secondly, the bolded part is completely wrong. Did you watch the World Cup? A French side that has players like Griezmann and Mbappe are far from defensive. You can say what you like, but Pogba did play in a very offensive French team, as long as Matuidi and Kanté covered his defensive side of things. Thirdly, I will raise the point about Juventus too, a team that has dominated Serie A for over a decade easily and Pogba was part of the teams that won Serie A however, they weren't defensive either. To win a league, the last thing you want to do is be defensive, other than scoring the first goal, in that case defending does become a priority and if a chance comes along to score again, then they will. So, it is a myth that Pogba hasn't played in offensive teams.

 

[Amar__]

Other than that there is nothing Xavi could do with the ball that I have not seen Pogba do better, simple as.

And he continues...

 

[kouroux]

I'm sure there are freestylers who could do things with the balls Xavi could never do either but you get the point....

 

[soaphroniscuss]

The "Pogba Question" rolls on.. The same thing happened to Glenn Hoddle ... mind you.

 

[breakout67]

I'm sure there are freestylers who could do things with the balls Xavi could never do either but you get the point....

You made a very good point. Xavi did the simple things to such a high level. A pass through the lines, a pass over the top, a drop of the shoulder to lose his marker, a movement into the space of a vacated midfielder, blocking of passing lanes.

Pogba seems to prefer doing things in extravagant ways, and I think it comes from his personality. He wants to be a stylish player, someone that stands out.

 

[kouroux]

You made a very good point. Xavi did the simple things to such a high level. A pass through the lines, a pass over the top, a drop of the shoulder to lose his marker, a movement into the space of a vacated midfielder, blocking of passing lanes.

Pogba seems to prefer doing things in extravagant ways, and I think it comes from his personality. He wants to be a stylish player, someone that stands out.

Yeah, with the right mentality, he could easily be better than all those players mentioned for me but since it's never likely to happen, it's a moot point.

 

[Stacks]

To some this thread up. "he is great, but should do better" the end

 

[VeevaVee]

To some this thread up. "he is great sometimes, but should do better the rest of the time" the end

more like ^

 

[Patrick08]

Yeah, with the right mentality, he could easily be better than all those players mentioned for me but since it's never likely to happen, it's a moot point.

When he ages and looses that pace, power bite and spunk it will be interesting to too if he matures enough to evolve and focus on the attributes needed for a player who dictates from the midfieldot not, if not he will totally be a ineffective player when he ages.

At the moment he is showing no maturity at all, apart from the brief stint at world cup.

 

[kouroux]

When he ages and looses that pace, power bite and spunk it will be interesting to too if he matures enough to evolve and focus on the attributes needed for a player who dictates from the midfieldot not, if not he will totally be a ineffective player when he ages.

At the moment he is showing no maturity at all, apart from the brief stint at world cup.

I see him becoming like Yaya Toure, a lazy lumbering player who will get carried by his teammates until he is finally regularly benched (if he doesn't change his mentality that is).

 

[Lemur]

I'm sure there are freestylers who could do things with the balls Xavi could never do either but you get the point....

Actually no, you have tried to negate my point with the lack of a point. Freestylers don't play association football, Pogba and Xavi do.

I have yet to read a rebuttal to my post considering it was about how he plays, and not necessarily about the defensive side of things. Secondly, the bolded part is completely wrong. Did you watch the World Cup? A French side that has players like Griezmann and Mbappe are far from defensive. You can say what you like, but Pogba did play in a very offensive French team, as long as Matuidi and Kanté covered his defensive side of things. Thirdly, I will raise the point about Juventus too, a team that has dominated Serie A for over a decade easily and Pogba was part of the teams that won Serie A however, they weren't defensive either. To win a league, the last thing you want to do is be defensive, other than scoring the first goal, in that case defending does become a priority and if a chance comes along to score again, then they will. So, it is a myth that Pogba hasn't played in offensive teams.

France were a defensive counter attacking team at this world cup so I'm not sure what you were watching.

In addition Pogba was almost always behind Matuidi in France's buildup play so Pogba was doing the covering. I watched some of the French games over so I would know.

And to your other posts, Xavi played in Barca all his life and only became the best midfielder once Barca and Spain became stacked.

Replace him with Pogba during the pass and move days and they would have been little difference except added height.

What evidence is there? He did it for France, they played pass and move football and I heard deschamps tell them not to hold on to the ball.

One wonders how prime Xavi would have played in our un-stacked United side. I doubt better than he played for Barca.

 

[Lemur]

Pirlo and Xavi don't need to be fast. Their position and role doesn't require pace. Carrick played a similar role. Did he have pace?

Obviously, just putting them in our midfield now maybe wouldn't be great. But put the right players around them in midfield and they will dominate anywhere in any league.

I'm all for Pogba too, and he has the potential to be there with the best. But man, some of his fans are getting way ahead of themselves. He has a lot more to achieve to be put in that company. It kind of reminds me of how some overrate Martial. They talk about as if his potential is already realised, when in fact that's far from the truth.

The first thing I said about Pogba is that he can improve and I'm not a Pogba fan outright either. He is nevertheless our best player and besides Madrid, Manchester United is the only team that rides their star players. It must be prejudice of some kind because Sanchez's or Matic's thread never blows up like Pogba, Lukaku and Martial.

Any way I take your point about pace but Carrick was not noticeably slow until his 30s. And in any case we had more active wings and strikers so he always had an out ball during his playing days.

In this team Carrick would encounter many of the same problems Pogba does; you look up and there is no one to play the ball to.

That's a post full of delusion.

I'll take Yaye Toure of 2013/2014 over the current Pogba any time of the day and any year. Anyone thinking otherwise is either deluding himself massively or didn't see this season.


I won't even replay on the Xavi part because it's beyond a joke at the moment.

As I said, you'll only see discussions like these on a United forum. For neutrals the choice is pretty easy.

Post full of what? Have you read any of yours recently?. Those videos show me nothing different to what I was saying so I will move on.

Whether this is a United Forum or Work huddle, the reality is Pogba has interest from teams currently better than us so he must be doing something right.

This is the same excuse that keeps being brought up for both Pogba and Martial. Martial keeps getting doubled because of his lack of movement. Pogba just takes way to long on the ball and invites pressure from several players. That is actually one of his strengths. Because he is good at shielding the ball and getting out of those situations, and when he does, it becomes a massive advantage for us since it frees up other players. That's great when it works, the problem is that it fails a lot of the time and that's where his football iq comes into question. He needs to make better decisions of when to take on players like this and when to just release it quicker. I would also say that his positioning awareness on defense isn't as good as some of those top different types of CM's of the past.

No one is making excuses, it was said that he needs to improve and be better at finding space.

And since Ole took over Pogba would not have to hold the ball very long, the minute it came to him the opposing team tried to surround him. This was very evident against PSG and wolves, while other teams like Liverpool constantly had one man following Pogba.

He needs to learn to deal with that attention if he remains our only creative player.

 

[Bestietom]

Not good in last 3/4 games. I think his head has been turned with Real and Zidane.

 

[wub1234]

Hold on...is someone really claiming that Paul Pogba is better than Xavi and Pirlo? Do my eyes deceive me?

This would mean that Pogba is perhaps the best midfielder ever. Definitely in the top five or six of all-time, ranked alongside the likes of Matthaeus, Zidane, Iniesta and Platini.

How could anyone possibly believe this?

 

[.Rossi]

Hold on...is someone really claiming that Paul Pogba is better than Xavi and Pirlo? Do my eyes deceive me?

This would mean that Pogba is perhaps the best midfielder ever. Definitely in the top five or six of all-time, ranked alongside the likes of Matthaeus, Zidane, Iniesta and Platini.

How could anyone possibly believe this?

Fifa generation.

He's nowhere near Scholes, Keane or Robson

 

[Canagel]

Hold on...is someone really claiming that Paul Pogba is better than Xavi and Pirlo? Do my eyes deceive me?

This would mean that Pogba is perhaps the best midfielder ever. Definitely in the top five or six of all-time, ranked alongside the likes of Matthaeus, Zidane, Iniesta and Platini.

How could anyone possibly believe this?

A very respected keeper and legend like Gigi buffon said he has elements of Platini and Zidane.
https://www.google.com.eg/amp/s/met...ine-zidane-says-gianluigi-buffon-6081291/amp/

 

[el3mel]

Post full of what? Have you read any of yours recently?. Those videos show me nothing different to what I was saying so I will move on.

Whether this is a United Forum or Work huddle, the reality is Pogba has interest from teams currently better than us so he must be doing something right.

Maybe you're not the one who's reading your posts.

 

[kouroux]

Actually no, you have tried to negate my point with the lack of a point. Freestylers don't play association football, Pogba and Xavi do.

The point is simple though. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I meant, Pogba can do things not many can do as a pro but it doesn't mean he's close to the likes of Xavi. Not nearly close enough for me and I like the man. He's won us a World Cup and all but Xavi is among the best ever CMs. Pogba lacks the consistency to ever reach such a level.

 

[Nipower888]

Why are people comparing pogba to midfielders that 1. Dont even the same role he plays and 2. Also played with world class midfielders to hide their flaws. Xavi played with iniesta and messi. Roy Keane played with Paul scholes and a bunch of great attackers. Pirlo played with Paul and a whole number of great midfielders. Paul Pogba plays with Herrera and Matic.

 

[Cladistics_Fan]

Actually no, you have tried to negate my point with the lack of a point. Freestylers don't play association football, Pogba and Xavi do.




France were a defensive counter attacking team at this world cup so I'm not sure what you were watching.

In addition Pogba was almost always behind Matuidi in France's buildup play so Pogba was doing the covering. I watched some of the French games over so I would know.

And to your other posts, Xavi played in Barca all his life and only became the best midfielder once Barca and Spain became stacked.

Replace him with Pogba during the pass and move days and they would have been little difference except added height.

What evidence is there? He did it for France, they played pass and move football and I heard deschamps tell them not to hold on to the ball.

One wonders how prime Xavi would have played in our un-stacked United side. I doubt better than he played for Barca.

I don't really want to waste my daily quota replying to one line paragraphs, since they make it fairly difficult to respond to. Anyway, I'll give you the counter-attacking team, perhaps it was me who got the impression that having quality forwards, made me think it was an attacking team from the off. Pogba wasn't alone in doing the covering since he knew full well that Ngolo Kanté was there to cover any mistakes made. I mean, it was his job for Leicester City and Chelsea up until recent times. This is what makes Ngolo Kanté a special player in my opinion.

As for Xavi, yes, he did play for Barcelona all his life (even though he did want to leave on one occasion earlier in his Barcelona days) However, what you are doing is a disservice to one of, if not the best midfielder most posters have seen here in their entire lives. You don't have to like Barcelona, but you have to admire players like Xavi who kept the Blaugrana machine ticking over.

In the bolded blue text, there is so many things wrong. Pogba played in a "counter attacking French team." This probably suited his game all around compared to the dominant Barcelona side that is all about possession. I have seen it time and time again where under no pressure whatsoever; Pogba dilly-dallying with the ball, and this ensures that the defensive unit can get back to its original shape. He is good at some things, but possession football is not one of them. Let us face facts, Coutinho in the Premier league was a monster, had all the time in the world, he could fend off players and score goals. At the moment, he is finding it difficult to adapt to la liga simply because he has no time to dilly dally with the ball and then take a shot.

This is where Xavi excelled the most; cool, calm and collected. The ability to not being closed down at all was his key attribute, then his passes were second to none. His thinking on and off the ball cannot be matched. He really was a midfielder who was ahead of his time and, whether we like him or not, when you get a player who "drenches his shirt", for 90 minutes, then you have a real player. So, I agree that Pogba could add height to the team, but that is pretty much it.

Again, apart from assumptions and hypothetical situations, you really have no evidence about how good Xavi was compared to Paul. All you are doing is being subjective rather than objective. A lot of the posters here love Pogba, but they try to be as objective as they can be within the parameters. However, when he gets compared to X and is superior to X, then we have to call out the post for what it is; speculative at best. This is by no means against Paul, I like him as a player and has great attributes, but he is getting older with each season that passes and isn't maturing like other young players do.

 

[Un4givableB]

Why are people comparing pogba to midfielders that 1. Dont even the same role he plays and 2. Also played with world class midfielders to hide their flaws. Xavi played with iniesta and messi. Roy Keane played with Paul scholes and a bunch of great attackers. Pirlo played with Paul and a whole number of great midfielders. Paul Pogba plays with Herrera and Matic.

This

If we sold Pogba we get more money than we paid & he would be stepping up not down and there is a reason for that.

 

[wub1234]

A very respected keeper and legend like Gigi buffon said he has elements of Platini and Zidane.
https://www.google.com.eg/amp/s/met...ine-zidane-says-gianluigi-buffon-6081291/amp/

Saying someone "has elements" of another player is not the same as them being as good as that player.

Pogba's ability is not in doubt. But his performances on the field of play are absolutely nowhere near putting him in the category of one of the best midfielders ever.

 

[Lemur]

Saying someone "has elements" of another player is not the same as them being as good as that player.

Pogba's ability is not in doubt. But his performances on the field of play are absolutely nowhere near putting him in the category of one of the best midfielders ever.

It is easy to revere players who no longer play as though they never had bad games.

But nowhere near is talking full blooded tripe.

And no one said those players from recent times weren't great midfielders, they were. But what exactly can Xavi do or did that you haven't seen Pogba do?!

A lot of what Xavi achieved is down to the team he played in, put him in a pure player comparison with Pogba and you will see we have a exceptional player in the frenchman. Who nevertheless is not perfect, needs to improve and can learn from Xavi's movement.

But there is a reason Cesc for instance, looked different playing in the EPL versus when he was at Barcelona. Playing here is a real litmus test for any player.

The point is simple though. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I meant, Pogba can do things not many can do as a pro but it doesn't mean he's close to the likes of Xavi. Not nearly close enough for me and I like the man. He's won us a World Cup and all but Xavi is among the best ever CMs. Pogba lacks the consistency to ever reach such a level.

See reply above.

With regards to your last line, fancy saying that about a 25 year old who plays for United.

Hope he goes to Madrid especially for fans like you, he deserves a stacked club team like those other great midfielders.

 

[kouroux]

See reply above.

With regards to your last line, fancy saying that about a 25 year old who plays for United.

Hope he goes to Madrid especially for fans like you, he deserves a stacked club team like those other great midfielders.

For fans like me ? What is so horrible about me, please do tell
The thing you don't understand if he does great for Madrid, it's irrelevant to me. It won't bother me nor frustrate me, just like it was with Ronaldo. As long as a player is ours, I'll wish him well, once he leaves, he doesn't matter anymore.

 

[wub1234]

But what exactly can Xavi do or did that you haven't seen Pogba do?

Put in consistent world-class performances week-in, week-out for ten years.

There are lots of technical things that Xavi does that Pogba cannot do, another poster has discussed how much better he was at the core attributes of a midfield player - receiving the ball, holding it, giving it at the right time accurately, seeing the right option, etc. However, his performances over a period of time were so, so much stronger than Pogba, it's an insult to Xavi to even compare Pogba to him.

If you asked 100 professionals, pundits and journalists, "who is the better player - Pogba or Xavi?"...I would be surprised if the result came out as anything other than Xavi 100, Pogba 0.

Who else do you rate Pogba as good as? Do you think he's a better player than Iniesta? Zidane? Platini?

 

[Lemur]

Put in consistent world-class performances week-in, week-out for ten years.

There are lots of technical things that Xavi does that Pogba cannot do, another poster has discussed how much better he was at the core attributes of a midfield player - receiving the ball, holding it, giving it at the right time accurately, seeing the right option, etc. However, his performances over a period of time were so, so much stronger than Pogba, it's an insult to Xavi to even compare Pogba to him.

If you asked 100 professionals, pundits and journalists, "who is the better player - Pogba or Xavi?"...I would be surprised if the result came out as anything other than Xavi 100, Pogba 0.

Who else do you rate Pogba as good as? Do you think he's a better player than Iniesta? Zidane? Platini?

That type of response was inevitable.
No one was speaking specifically of better or worse. The comment was made that when Pogba has a stormer he is a supreme player.

Also since someone brought up Xavi, I simply asked what does he do that you haven't seen Pogba do and you have listed nothing of consequence.
We all know Pogba needs to be more consistent and to deal with pressure better.

But to say he isn't in the top category of midfielders is ludicrous.

Not doing the other name dropping with you, no time for it.

 

[Cladistics_Fan]

That type of response was inevitable.
No one was speaking specifically of better or worse. The comment was made that when Pogba has a stormer he is a supreme player.

Also since someone brought up Xavi, I simply asked what does he do that you haven't seen Pogba do and you have listed nothing of consequence.
We all know Pogba needs to be more consistent and to deal with pressure better.

But to say he isn't in the top category of midfielders is ludicrous.

Not doing the other name dropping with you, no time for it.

It probably was inevitable, but @wub1234 is absolutely spot on. I am in agreement that when Paul Pogba has a great game, he is untouchable, that is something that has never been in question and it was most certainly not part of the debate. The debate was; how good is Paul Pogba compared to midfield playmakers today and historically (within the last 20-30 years?) This is one of your very first statements made in this particular thread, and you must admit, it was a very bold statement to make and I'll just quote it for clarity:

He should hold his head high and keep his consistency because there is no midfielder currently playing or in recent history who has ever shown a top level like Paul Pogba has

For the first bolded statement in blue, you are saying that he should "keep his consistency", yet by the same token, in your original post, you said that he needs to be "more consistent." Can you please elaborate further, since I am a bit confused as to which one we should be referring to. As it stands, he is a great player, he is a bad player when things don't go his away or, he can be indifferent. For me, there is absolutely no consistency to his game.

For the second bolded statement in green, many posters including myself have already pointed out various names from the past who had a higher ceiling to their game. For example, the IFFHS started giving out awards for the best playmaker; and it might not mean much, but the first player to have ever won that award was noneother than Zinedin Zidane. He was the first back in 2006. Xavi Hernandez won it 4 times in a row, Toni Kroos won it back when he was playing for Bayern Munich. Andreas Iniesta has also won the playmaker award twice. Lastly, Lionel Messi has won it 3 times already and is on his way to a possible 4th award for best playmaker. So, with that being said, there are already 3 names on the list who have been the best for their qualities, so much so that not even the likes of Pirlo could not get a mention.

For the bolded statement in brown, how do you define a "top level." Is it simply spraying 40-50 yard balls around the place? In that case, I concede that he is one of the best players for that particular attribute. However, spraying balls over a long distance is just one part of a playmakers arsenal. If we want to go back to basics i.e. short passes then Paul is not up there. Here is one historical fact that is demonstrable and verifiable, and that is Iniesta and Xavi shared over 260 passes to each other in one game. Can you imagine Paul doing that? I watched the game against Wolves and most of his long passes went to the opposition player because he cannot be bothered to keep the game simple i.e. if you have the ball in your possession, you need to do as much as you can do keep it. The onus is on the opposition to get the ball of you and if you give easy balls away, then you are asking for trouble.

As it stands, Paul Pogba has a relatively good level in him, but he is no longer a "up and coming youngster", that we like to think he is. He should be in the prime of his life and as it stands at the moment, he is showing a level that is not comparable to Scholes, Keane or even Beckham. If he can show the desire of a Roy Keane and the quality of Paul Scholes, then and only then will he considered a legend for the club. At the moment, it is looking likely that he will never be one. I hope I am wrong and he does really well, but if he continues to show the consistency that he has shown over the last couple of years, then my opinion of him in the future will stay the same.

 

[balaks]

Honestly struggling to believe there is somebody actually trying to compare Xavi to Pogba AND suggesting Pogba may be at a similar level (or better)? Christ.

 

[Water Melon]

Honestly struggling to believe there is somebody actually trying to compare Xavi to Pogba AND suggesting Pogba may be at a similar level (or better)? Christ.

I do find Pogba to be quite a unique player, but comparing him to Xavi? The latter was once in a lifetime player.

 

[Cladistics_Fan]

Honestly struggling to believe there is somebody actually trying to compare Xavi to Pogba AND suggesting Pogba may be at a similar level (or better)? Christ.

Please allow me to quote your message and rephrase it:

I am honestly struggling to believe that there is a poster comparing Pogba to Xavi and also suggesting that Pogba has a higher top level compared to Xavi.

Personally, I am struggling too. Everyone has an opinion, but it is ill-informed.

 

[Lemur]

It probably was inevitable, but @wub1234 is absolutely spot on. I am in agreement that when Paul Pogba has a great game, he is untouchable, that is something that has never been in question and it was most certainly not part of the debate. The debate was; how good is Paul Pogba compared to midfield playmakers today and historically (within the last 20-30 years?) This is one of your very first statements made in this particular thread, and you must admit, it was a very bold statement to make and I'll just quote it for clarity:


For the first bolded statement in blue, you are saying that he should "keep his consistency", yet by the same token, in your original post, you said that he needs to be "more consistent." Can you please elaborate further, since I am a bit confused as to which one we should be referring to. As it stands, he is a great player, he is a bad player when things don't go his away or, he can be indifferent. For me, there is absolutely no consistency to his game.

Quite a long post but I will try to respond with less as I have gone in depth already.

Recent history in football can never be 20-30 years. Also my comment still stands that his top level is higher than any other midfielder I have seen. That will not change unless some new footage is uncovered or unless some new kid hits the block. When Pogba has a game, he does things that have rarely been seen, far less in any one midfielder. Yaya could run to relieve pressure against any side, Beckham could pass to anyone from anywhere, Iniesta could wiggle out of tight areas....Pogba can do all of those things. He does not do it consistently enough for Manchester United, I take that point all day and so does Phelan.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-paul-pogba-stay-manchester-united-warns-not/


Keep his consistency and maintain consistency are a matter of speaking about the same thing and if you read my posts you would know what I mean.

For the second bolded statement in green, many posters including myself have already pointed out various names from the past who had a higher ceiling to their game. For example, the IFFHS started giving out awards for the best playmaker; and it might not mean much, but the first player to have ever won that award was noneother than Zinedin Zidane. He was the first back in 2006. Xavi Hernandez won it 4 times in a row, Toni Kroos won it back when he was playing for Bayern Munich. Andreas Iniesta has also won the playmaker award twice. Lastly, Lionel Messi has won it 3 times already and is on his way to a possible 4th award for best playmaker. So, with that being said, there are already 3 names on the list who have been the best for their qualities, so much so that not even the likes of Pirlo could not get a mention.

For the bolded statement in brown, how do you define a "top level." Is it simply spraying 40-50 yard balls around the place? In that case, I concede that he is one of the best players for that particular attribute. However, spraying balls over a long distance is just one part of a playmakers arsenal. If we want to go back to basics i.e. short passes then Paul is not up there. Here is one historical fact that is demonstrable and verifiable, and that is Iniesta and Xavi shared over 260 passes to each other in one game. Can you imagine Paul doing that? I watched the game against Wolves and most of his long passes went to the opposition player because he cannot be bothered to keep the game simple i.e. if you have the ball in your possession, you need to do as much as you can do keep it. The onus is on the opposition to get the ball of you and if you give easy balls away, then you are asking for trouble.

Awards are great but in no way are awards perfect mate, for instance the last fifa world player of the year that Zidane won should have gone to Nedved in 2003 and then there is the more recent case of Modric....less said here the better. Also those players winning speaks more to consistency than their top level, compare a good game from Kroos to a good game from Pogba, the frenchman wins all day every day. Furthermore look at Michael Owen(not a midfielder) he won the Balon d'or, while Henry never won it during his distinguished career, yet who had the higher top level?! Ok moving on.

Nothing paragraph there to be honest, I watched tiki taka until I realized I started falling asleep before half time. Xavi and Iniesta racked up those passing stats, more often than not the same way Jorginho does. Also I have never seen Paul Pogba trade short passes with teammates, you're right, I don't see him now, don't see it with France and never saw it at Juventus, you are right**.

As it stands, Paul Pogba has a relatively good level in him, but he is no longer a "up and coming youngster", that we like to think he is. He should be in the prime of his life and as it stands at the moment, he is showing a level that is not comparable to Scholes, Keane or even Beckham. If he can show the desire of a Roy Keane and the quality of Paul Scholes, then and only then will he considered a legend for the club. At the moment, it is looking likely that he will never be one. I hope I am wrong and he does really well, but if he continues to show the consistency that he has shown over the last couple of years, then my opinion of him in the future will stay the same.

It does not bother me if he is a legend here, Forlan was none but look what he went on to do. People keep talking about Pogba and blaming him for this or that but the guy is 25, were any of the other midfielders listed in their prime at that age? No.



To reiterate, I never said Pogba was better or worse than anyone, I said I have never seen another midfielder with his top level. He could have poor games for the rest of his time here and that would not change my appreciation of that.

Take from that what you want.

 

[Lemur]

Honestly struggling to believe there is somebody actually trying to compare Xavi to Pogba AND suggesting Pogba may be at a similar level (or better)? Christ.

How is that last word there allowed to be used like that.

Anyway with your incredulity indicate in a pure player comparison what Xavi did that you have not seen Pogba do?

I do find Pogba to be quite a unique player, but comparing him to Xavi? The latter was once in a lifetime player.

It is so easy to revere players who no longer play like they never had a bad game.

Especially those that never switched leagues and always played in stacked teams.

I can picture Xavi in the prem at united in Fergie's time or better yet even now, would he have on his own taken us to glory, like people ask of Pogba? Jokes.

 

[wub1234]

Also since someone brought up Xavi, I simply asked what does he do that you haven't seen Pogba do and you have listed nothing of consequence.

Well, actually I did, I listed the core attributes of a midfield player, none of which Pogba has demonstrated on anything like a regular basis!

Furthermore, having a good level, and being capable of doing extraordinary things on occasion, is not what being a great midfielder, footballer, or even sportsman is about. It’s about performing on a regular, almost relentless basis. Your attitude should be that it doesn’t matter what you did three weeks ago, all that matters is the next game.

It’s not fair to compare anyone to Messi, but let’s take him as an example. He scored a brilliant match-winning hat-trick against Sevilla on 23rd February, in a game in which Barcelona came from behind. Did he then rest on his laurels for a few weeks? No. Since then he has:

- Scored an even better hat-trick against Real Betis;
- Scored two and got two assists in the CL versus Lyon;
- Scored two versus Espanyol and won the game;
- Came off the bench to score a free-kick and rescue Barca against Villareal
- Scored and was man of the match against Atletico.

Even Messi isn’t going to be at his peak performance all of the time, but he’s very good on a very regular basis. Pogba, by contrast, occasionally plays very well, and then people on here are seemingly willing to excuse him being bang average for several weeks, because his ‘best level’ is so high that he can be forgiven for mediocrity. That’s fine, but you will never go down as a top drawer performer without being consistent.

The reality is that Paul Pogba is a very good player, he’s arguably Man United’s best player, and he has turned in some excellent performances. But he is a very long way away from being a dominant figure, a reliable and stable player, who you know will perform at a certain level on a consistent basis.

Let alone should he be mentioned in the same sentence as the greatest midfielders ever.

 

[kouroux]

How is that last word there allowed to be used like that.

Anyway with your incredulity indicate in a pure player comparison what Xavi did that you have not seen Pogba do?




It is so easy to revere players who no longer play like they never had a bad game.

Especially those that never switched leagues and always played in stacked teams.

I can picture Xavi in the prem at united in Fergie's time or better yet even now, would he have on his own taken us to glory, like people ask of Pogba? Jokes.

No one asks Pogba to take us to glory, that's just clear delusion. If he could consistently play as a decent midfielder during an entire it would be fantastic already because his individual quality is so unique.

 

[Cladistics_Fan]

Quite a long post but I will try to respond with less as I have gone in depth already.

Recent history in football can never be 20-30 years. Also my comment still stands that his top level is higher than any other midfielder I have seen. That will not change unless some new footage is uncovered or unless some new kid hits the block. When Pogba has a game, he does things that have rarely been seen, far less in any one midfielder. Yaya could run to relieve pressure against any side, Beckham could pass to anyone from anywhere, Iniesta could wiggle out of tight areas....Pogba can do all of those things. He does not do it consistently enough for Manchester United, I take that point all day and so does Phelan.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-paul-pogba-stay-manchester-united-warns-not/


Keep his consistency and maintain consistency are a matter of speaking about the same thing and if you read my posts you would know what I mean.



Awards are great but in no way are awards perfect mate, for instance the last fifa world player of the year that Zidane won should have gone to Nedved in 2003 and then there is the more recent case of Modric....less said here the better. Also those players winning speaks more to consistency than their top level, compare a good game from Kroos to a good game from Pogba, the frenchman wins all day every day. Furthermore look at Michael Owen(not a midfielder) he won the Balon d'or, while Henry never won it during his distinguished career, yet who had the higher top level?! Ok moving on.

Nothing paragraph there to be honest, I watched tiki taka until I realized I started falling asleep before half time. Xavi and Iniesta racked up those passing stats, more often than not the same way Jorginho does. Also I have never seen Paul Pogba trade short passes with teammates, you're right, I don't see him now, don't see it with France and never saw it at Juventus, you are right**.



It does not bother me if he is a legend here, Forlan was none but look what he went on to do. People keep talking about Pogba and blaming him for this or that but the guy is 25, were any of the other midfielders listed in their prime at that age? No.



To reiterate, I never said Pogba was better or worse than anyone, I said I have never seen another midfielder with his top level. He could have poor games for the rest of his time here and that would not change my appreciation of that.

Take from that what you want.

He should hold his head high and keep his consistency because there is no midfielder currently playing or in recent history who has ever shown a top level like Paul Pogba has

You keep on bringing up quotes from players like Shaka Hislop or Mike Phelan. Well done on going down the "appeal to authority", route. I could have gone down that route and quoted so many quotes about other top quality midfielders however, it would be just opinions from others. As the late, great Christopher Hitchens once said; "What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

So, at the moment, you are bringing up an argument without any metrics, without any statistics that we can work with and debate over. You mention over and over again, the idea of a "top level." Until you show us the metrics to deal in, we cannot possibly deal with this argument in question. With that being said, I have watched a great deal of football over the last 25-30 years, and I don't think I have seen a midfielder quite as good as Xavi, that is a subjective opinion, and what you have to remember is that when he was playing, there were other top class midfielders of his generation playing too. Again, just for the sake of clarity, I hope he does stay and gets some consistency however, we dont play 4 games per year, we play 38 plus some more in Europe.

Anyway, I am out of here simply because you are not bringing anything to the table with regards to the debate. I need you to provide me with data to show that Pogba does have a superior top level than any midfielder, simply because, "extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence."

 

[Lynty]

For the benefit of his career, he needs to move.

With truly world class players around him, it would undoubtedly elevate him into one of the midfield greats.

We can’t offer that for at least 2 seasons, possibly longer if things with Ole don’t go to plan.

We’d lose a great player. But not an irreplaceable one.

 

[Jib]

Why are people comparing pogba to midfielders that 1. Dont even the same role he plays and 2. Also played with world class midfielders to hide their flaws. Xavi played with iniesta and messi. Roy Keane played with Paul scholes and a bunch of great attackers. Pirlo played with Paul and a whole number of great midfielders. Paul Pogba plays with Herrera and Matic.

Herrera and Matic are world class. Stop the excuses.