Will we ever learn?!

[andersj]

Man Utd-supporters have a high standard of expectation from our players. That is a good thing. We should have a high standard.

But the high standard has led to some brutal assessment of some of our players in the beggining of their carriers. There are several examples, but Carrick, Fletcher and more recentley McTominay, Lingard and Lindeløf comes to mind. Acamday-players are often targeted as well, for some weird reason.

A couple of months ago McTominay started his first game in a long time for us. He was short of match fitness, probably confidence and most of the players surrounding him were the same. They had not played much together, if anything, before. And it was his first game for a new manager. The reactions where typical and over the top. I've added a few of them below:

"Will be in championship within next 2 years. He's not good enough for PL standard never mind United standard."

"Stealing a living at Manchester United. He would struggle to get into any of the teams in the top half of the table. I doubt Huddersfield or Fulham would want him either."

"Will end up at Bristol City or someone along those lines.."

"He ain’t good enough for the Championship."

"He's rubbish and should not be anywhere near our team."

"Just nothing player unfortunately, I’m not even sure he would make it at Championship."

The reaction by our supporters are League Two-level (and I'm not talking about the supporters of clubs in League Two, they are probably great!).

And RedCafe is actually a lot better than a few other places where the insults gets much more personal or just meaner. I'm not saying that McTominay will be a new Vieira, Keane, a scottish Yaya Toure (well, I did joke about that actually..) or even Fletcher. But considering what he has done recentley, he is obviously a player with talent.

He has left quite a few of us looking more than stupid! Luckily (especially for me considering how many times I fecked up the last few years), I was taught that doing or saying something stupid, does not make you stupid. So I guess there is a chance for all of us! That being said, I'm convinced that repeatedley making the same stupid mistake actually makes you, by definition, stupid. Yes, that is in fact the defintion of stupid; the inability to learn from your mistakes.

And that will be a bit interesting going forward. Will it be the same people who had a knee-jerk, OTT-reaction to McT in the past who will have the same when James Garner, Mason Greenwood or similar goes through a rough patch? Or even McTominay, Rashford or Lingard? Or will these people have learned and there will be new fans popping up having a go at them? Maybe the people who had a go at McTominay will defend our players, remembering their own stupid assessment?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course, but maybe we should consider how this opinion is presented? If not to create a good debate, being respectfull or showing that you have some sort of manners, just to avvoid lucking f*****g stupid?!

Questioning whether a players is good enough? Fine!
Arguing why you dont think he is good enough (or ever will be)? Fine!
Stating that a player had a poor game (and maybe even arguing why)? Fine!

But comments like the ones above is pointless and add nothing of value to the debate. I really do not see the pont.

Btw, I used "we" and "us" a few places! It was mostly due to being respectfull and trying to avvoid putting myself on a high horse or pedestal (does these expressions work in english too?). But I would never have a go at one of our players, doing his best, in the manner some do repeatedley. And yes, this is me climbing on to the pedestal. In the case of McTominay:

A) I actually thought he looked fine.
B) He work rate has always been incredible. He plays with his heart. Even if a player turns out not to be good enough, he deserve our respect if he has the same attitude as McTominay.
C) Louis van Gaal, Jose Mourinho and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer seem to believe in him. And it is not just limited to these three. The staff at the club appear to have faith in McTominay. It includes Michael Carrick and Nicky Butt who knows a thing or two about being a midfielder in the Premier League. Hell, even Ferguson appears to have a sweet spot for Scott.

And to me, C is more important than A. Meaning that if I did not see it with Scott I would not be so f*****g stupid that I ignored the fact that professionals with several years of experience at the top level appears to rate him. Not only will they probably/hopefully have more experience and knowledge than me, they will probably also have more information about the player watching him every day in Carrington next to Pogba, Matic and Herrera. I'm not saying that I would not want to discuss it, but I would probably be carefull in the manner in which I did.

And for those of you that do not understand the importance and relevance of C), I suspect that you will be inclined to make the same mistake over and over.

 

[Vadim]

People around here choose their scapegoat for the weekend and that’s that, they refuse to back down.

One week it’s Lukaku. Then it’s Rashford. Then it’s Pogba.

One thing we can all agree on though is that Ashley Young shouldn’t be near a Man Utd first 11 now and definitely shouldn’t be captain.

 

[VeevaVee]

People take ages to clock on and a ridiculous amount are a) shit at working out what's going on, and b) sheep and form their opinion based on other's.

The amount of times I've had backlash for a view, then 6 months later it's the accepted opinion among the masses. Rating McTominay is one of them.

Lingard isn't very good though.

 

[freeurmind]

People around here choose their scapegoat for the weekend and that’s that, they refuse to back down.

One week it’s Lukaku. Then it’s Rashford. Then it’s Pogba.

One thing we can all agree on though is that Ashley Young shouldn’t be near a Man Utd first 11 now and definitely shouldn’t be captain.

 

[11101]

Pleased that he is doing well. I wasn't one of the doubters, i said all along he had something good about him, but i didn't expect him to look as good as he has the last two or three games.

I think too many people see one loose touch or a sideways pass or something and that's their mind made up on a player. A lot don't know what they're looking at in the first place either and go with the popular view.

 

[steakpie]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

 

[OohAahMartial]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

Which team do you support?

 

[Vadim]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

Bollocks.

 

[horsechoker]

We fail football? That's unpossible

 

[Eriku]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

Don’t understand football, eh? So that goes for Southgate, Mourinho, LvG and Ole as well? All are idiots who don’t understand football? Talk about nonsense.

And to say Fergie was cowardly...

This thread is so spot on. People are fecking idiots.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

You’re a moron and that is one of the worst posts I’ve seen on here.

All teams try to combat the other teams approach, its called tactics. Also Fletcher, Park and Wes Brown were fantastic servants to the club and played based on merit.

 

[red thru&thru]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

What is a "United player"?

 

[andersj]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

To some extent, all started with Busby. Ferguson was a smart man and built on a similar identity and culture. If you dont appreciate it, maybe its the wrong club for you?

 

[Sandikan]

While i agree we shouldn't write players off too early, let's not go the ther way and start declaring the likes of Lindelof and McTom as star players just yet.

 

[andersj]

While i agree we shouldn't write players off too early, let's not go the ther way and start declaring the likes of Lindelof and McTom as star players just yet.

I did not so I do not quite see the relevance of your post.

 

[Champ]

Everyone is a coach/manager and an expert on football on here.
Just because people watch football doesn't mean they understand the game.
That's why people pick out individuals as scapegoats.
Players can make mistakes and have bad games, but ultimately it's a team game.
Scotty is a quality player.
But I agree with the general viewpoint that whilst giving it his all, Young is not up to the quality we need anymore.
But if we could bottle his attitude we'd be a better side.

 

[steakpie]

Don’t understand football, eh? So that goes for Southgate, Mourinho, LvG and Ole as well? All are idiots who don’t understand football? Talk about nonsense.
.

LVG and Mourinho had massive budgets at United and delivered very little success and utter rubbish football. Are you saying they understood football?

Lingard is a decent midfield option. But as part of a 3 pronged attack, he doesn't have enough influence in the final third.

In fact, Lingard is a good example. In a Pep or Madrid/Barca side, he would play in the midfield 3, but at United, since we have turned into a negative, we fear the opposition mindset, he plays as part of the front 3.

 

[Sandikan]

I did not so I do not quite see the relevance of your post.

It wasn't quoting your post.
It was simply the next post on the thread.

 

[Schmiznurf]

I've liked McTominay all along.

 

[ivaldo]

LVG and Mourinho had massive budgets at United and delivered very little success and utter rubbish football. Are you saying they understood football?

Yes. Frankly, if you didn't think these managers understood football then your opinion doesn't count. These are some of the most celebrated managers in the history of the game.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

People would rather have a high profile new signing than see a player breakthrough from the Academy.

Compare the reaction on here on Sanchez signing with that of McTominay's debut.

 

[R'hllor]

Is it just me or people expect way to much from football fans, still find it funny, the reactions in here after Kolarov comments.

 

[Keefy18]

LVG and Mourinho had massive budgets at United and delivered very little success and utter rubbish football. Are you saying they understood football?

Lingard is a decent midfield option. But as part of a 3 pronged attack, he doesn't have enough influence in the final third.

In fact, Lingard is a good example. In a Pep or Madrid/Barca side, he would play in the midfield 3, but at United, since we have turned into a negative, we fear the opposition mindset, he plays as part of the front 3.

LVG came off the back of a 3rd place finish with a poor Dutch side. Himself and Jose whom I've no liking for at all are still 2 of the most successful coaches in the last 30 years or so.

Lingard is distinctly average and offers very little other than work rate, fact we are looking at CHO and Sancho to replace him says it all. He is overly protected cause he is a local lad and been through all the youth teams.

 

[Eriku]

LVG and Mourinho had massive budgets at United and delivered very little success and utter rubbish football. Are you saying they understood football?

Lingard is a decent midfield option. But as part of a 3 pronged attack, he doesn't have enough influence in the final third.

In fact, Lingard is a good example. In a Pep or Madrid/Barca side, he would play in the midfield 3, but at United, since we have turned into a negative, we fear the opposition mindset, he plays as part of the front 3.

Both have reached the heights that a managerial career offer, CL wins, league wins in major leagues with several teams. Yes, I do think they understand football, far more than you or I.

And you said Lingard wasn’t a United player, now you say he’s being used wrong... actually, I don’t care about your input, I’d just as soon block you after reading your idiotic dismissal of LvG and Mou. I didn’t care for the football we played under either of them, but to say they don’t understand football is arrogant and ignorant beyond belief.

 

[Judas]

People would rather have a high profile new signing than see a player breakthrough from the Academy.

Compare the reaction on here on Sanchez signing with that of McTominay's debut.

But people thought they were getting a world class player with Sanchez? Comparing him to some Scottish lad who barely anyone had heard of is daft. It’s hardly surprising. One was expected to make a huge impact, the other no one really knew how it was going to go.

Our youth players get plenty of hype on here. The excitement for Gomes cameo in the final game a few years back was insane. But he’s highly rated and there’s a lot of chatter about him, not really the same as McTominay.

 

[JJ12]

People would rather have a high profile new signing than see a player breakthrough from the Academy.

Compare the reaction on here on Sanchez signing with that of McTominay's debut.

People were more excited by signing a world class talent from a rival over a Scottish kid who may or may not have been good enough to be United player?

Shocking

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

But people thought they were getting a world class player with Sanchez? Comparing him to some Scottish lad who barely anyone had heard of is daft. It’s hardly surprising. One was expected to make a huge impact, the other no one really knew how it was going to go.

Our youth players get plenty of hype on here. The excitement for Gomes cameo in the final game a few years back was insane. But he’s highly rated and there’s a lot of chatter about him, not really the same as McTominay.

People were more excited by signing a world class talent from a rival over a Scottish kid who may or may not have been good enough to be United player?

Shocking

I’m just saying. I’m the same myself.

 

[Judas]

I’m just saying. I’m the same myself.

I don’t think it’s even true though. the majority on here would prefer one of our youngsters to break through and be a massive success than buying someone.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

People were more excited by signing a world class talent from a rival over a Scottish kid who may or may not have been good enough to be United player?

Shocking

The one exception to this I can think of was the debut of Giggs. I’d say that fans were arguably more excited about that than the signing of Cantona.

 

[RedIan]

The whole point of forums seems to be to give folk a platform to moan. Its human nature unfortunately. After a good game many moaners grudgingly give credit or stay quiet. After a defeat they are out in droves. Its a good job the players dont read it or they would loose all confidence. I support who ever the manager picks and pulls on a red shirt.
Young seems to be the latest to be singled out. Hes had some poor games of late and ive slated his contribution myself in frustration after a defeat but hes also had many good games over the years and scored some good goals.. OLE clearly sees him as a leader and selects him as captain atm so who knows more about football Ole or the average moaning punter on a football forum.

 

[Lentwood]

Yeah but the problem is you have the two extremes;

Poster A - "young Player X is not up to it and will be in the Championship within two years"

Poster B - "young Player X is a world-class talent who just needs;

a) time/experience
b) to be played in his natural position
c) pace around him
d) someone to do his running
e) an injury-free run
f) a run of games
g) a loan spell
h) a full pre-season
i) to be 'let of the leash'
j) a change of management/coaching staff

Now in reality, the one's that will be world-class are very obviously very good straight away i.e. Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc....

The problem with assessing our young talents lies with the players who are not very obviously very good straight away. See McTominay, Lingard, Martial, Rashford, Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown, Pereira, Dalot, Shaw, Jones, Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly etc...etc....

There is obviously a trade-off between how many excuses you can apply versus time i.e. the longer a player fails to demonstrate they are world-class, the less likely it is that any of the 'excuses' above are viable

Take Lingard for example....at various points in his career, you could apply excuses A, B, E, F, G, J - however, the lad is now 26 and has played 150 senior games. Which of those excuses still carry any real weight after that length of time?

Take Jones as another example....at various points you could have applied excuses A, B, E, F - the lad is 27 and has played 200 games. Which of those 'excuses' are now realistically viable?

Take Rashford and Martial....in the last 18-mnths we have seen excuses A, B, E, F, I & J applied - my fear is that's already a lot of excuses and we are starting already to be running out of credible ones.

Now conversely, take Luke Shaw. You could have applied excuses A, E, F & J - with the big one obviously being a horrific injury. Here we are, a couple of seasons after the leg-break with a new manager and Shaw is starting to string together performances that don't need to be excused, for the most part.

Same applies to Darren Fletcher and Wes Brown who both had disrupted starts to their career due to serious injuries. Eventually after being given time they began to put in performances at an appropriate level on a regular basis.

So, my point is - I'm not sure a thread titled 'When will we ever learn?', which I perceive as a shot back at posters (like myself) who have been critical of our young players, is appropriate. It's perfectly normal to expect that all but the very exceptional young players will, at various points, have one or more of those 'excuses' made for them and that doesn't necessarily mean they are not Utd standard. What I am saying is that there is only so long you can keep making excuses before you start to become sceptical i.e. is Player X struggling because of A, B, C, D etc....or more likely....are they just not as good as we think they are/want them to be?

 

[Judas]

The whole point of forums seems to be to give folk a platform to moan. Its human nature unfortunately. After a good game many moaners grudgingly give credit or stay quiet. After a defeat they are out in droves. Its a good job the players dont read it or they would loose all confidence. I support who ever the manager picks and pulls on a red shirt.
Young seems to be the latest to be singled out. Hes had some poor games of late and ive slated his contribution myself in frustration after a defeat but hes also had many good games over the years and scored some good goals.. OLE clearly sees him as a leader and selects him as captain atm so who knows more about football Ole or the average moaning punter on a football forum.

The past isn’t all that relevant though if the drop off in performance is as bad as it currently is from Young. You can’t keep someone around for old times sake, that’s one of the biggest issues with this club. Holding on to dross instead of moving on when it’s obviously the right time.

 

[Kapardin]

Fans are fickle, that is well established. It isn't wrong to have wrong opinions if you are man enough to admit you are wrong when you have been proven wrong.

Basically, they are wrong.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

He is still seen as a solid squad player going forward, right? Or we making him a first XI midfielder now?

 

[andersj]

Yeah but the problem is you have the two extremes;

Poster A - "young Player X is not up to it and will be in the Championship within two years"

Poster B - "young Player X is a world-class talent who just needs;

a) time/experience
b) to be played in his natural position
c) pace around him
d) someone to do his running
e) an injury-free run
f) a run of games
g) a loan spell
h) a full pre-season
i) to be 'let of the leash'
j) a change of management/coaching staff

Now in reality, the one's that will be world-class are very obviously very good straight away i.e. Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc....

The problem with assessing our young talents lies with the players who are not very obviously very good straight away. See McTominay, Lingard, Martial, Rashford, Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown, Pereira, Dalot, Shaw, Jones, Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly etc...etc....

There is obviously a trade-off between how many excuses you can apply versus time i.e. the longer a player fails to demonstrate they are world-class, the less likely it is that any of the 'excuses' above are viable

Take Lingard for example....at various points in his career, you could apply excuses A, B, E, F, G, J - however, the lad is now 26 and has played 150 senior games. Which of those excuses still carry any real weight after that length of time?

Take Jones as another example....at various points you could have applied excuses A, B, E, F - the lad is 27 and has played 200 games. Which of those 'excuses' are now realistically viable?

Take Rashford and Martial....in the last 18-mnths we have seen excuses A, B, E, F, I & J applied - my fear is that's already a lot of excuses and we are starting already to be running out of credible ones.

Now conversely, take Luke Shaw. You could have applied excuses A, E, F & J - with the big one obviously being a horrific injury. Here we are, a couple of seasons after the leg-break with a new manager and Shaw is starting to string together performances that don't need to be excused, for the most part.

Same applies to Darren Fletcher and Wes Brown who both had disrupted starts to their career due to serious injuries. Eventually after being given time they began to put in performances at an appropriate level on a regular basis.

So, my point is - I'm not sure a thread titled 'When will we ever learn?', which I perceive as a shot back at posters (like myself) who have been critical of our young players, is appropriate. It's perfectly normal to expect that all but the very exceptional young players will, at various points, have one or more of those 'excuses' made for them and that doesn't necessarily mean they are not Utd standard. What I am saying is that there is only so long you can keep making excuses before you start to become sceptical i.e. is Player X struggling because of A, B, C, D etc....or more likely....are they just not as good as we think they are/want them to be?

Did you read my post?

I do not have a problem with people being critical, asking questions or debating if players are good enough. I have a problem with the manner in which some go after some of our players. I even gave a few examples.

 

[VeevaVee]

I don’t think it’s even true though. the majority on here would prefer one of our youngsters to break through and be a massive success than buying someone.

There's both in equal measures I think. It's more exciting signing someone because there's a chance of immediate enjoyment and quality of football rising. But many also like having players that have come through the academy succeed. I like both!

 

[Lentwood]

Did you read my post?

I do not have a problem with people being critical, asking questions or debating if players are good enough. I have a problem with the manner in which some go after some of our players.

That's because people get frustrated. That the Internet for you. It's a platform to vent emotions you have.

I don't think we should resort to really personal attacks but if you think a player isn't up to it I don't see why you shouldn't call them out on a discussion board about Manchester Utd.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

You certainly don’t see it as much from the match going fans. Quite frankly keyboard warriors who have never even been to OT want and seemingly expect to Utd to win by 3 or 4 each week, otherwise it’s not good enough.

There also seems to be a lot of British bashing from non British fans - who seemingly can’t comprehend the importance of the academy, and of bringing youngsters through - even though it’s the foundations on which the club is built on.

We don’t need the academy players to be world class, those world class players are the ones Utd can buy in. These days you need 24 professionals, and if you can get 8-12 of those as academy players at any one time in the squad you can concentrate your funds on buying the exceptional players. Players like Cantona or RVP who were the difference in winning the league. Also means we don’t have to spend millions on the likes of Darmian, Fred or Rojo. Players who could be easily replaced by a youngster and we wouldn’t even notice!

 

[andersj]

That's because people get frustrated. That the Internet for you. It's a platform to vent emotions you have.

I don't think we should resort to really personal attacks but if you think a player isn't up to it I don't see why you shouldn't call them out on a discussion board about Manchester Utd.

For some, maybe. There are several in here who are able to write posts where they in a constructive manner say why they do not think a player is/will be good enough or what they need to improve.

If people prefer to make repeatedly stupid posts, without any value for anyone, they are entitled too. But that makes them a bit...

And maybe not just a bit.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Saying someone "isn't a United player" is one of those annoying intangibles people throw out. Of course Lingard is a United player, most of the United squad are United quality, for example if United lined up with Lingard alongside Rooney and Ronaldo and McTominay alongside Scholes and Carrick in 2009 or Lingard instead of Blomqvist in 1999, not only would he not stick out, they'd probably be even better than he is now.

Look at Matip, Lovren and Gomez at Liverpool, they all look steady next to Van Dijk.

United's problem is as much about not having enough world-class players, for many years the only one has been David de Gea and he's not been as good this season. Chelsea have Hazard, Liverpool have Salah, Spurs have Kane etc. Who are United's matchwinners in attack? Relying on Martial and Rashford who are both young and inconsistent and Lukaku isn't going to win games on his own without service. A lot of it goes back to Sanchez who was bought as that player, the marquee player in attack, but he's been absolutely abysmal.

In some recent big games, people have picked on lesser players but it has been United's best players that haven't performed - Pogba, De Gea etc