Was he really 'hard' or just dirty?

[SER19]

I'm not going to say I'm an expert but I do go boxing at my fighting gym 4 times a week. If I went up to one of the monsters who bench 200kg I would get embarrassed, despite how much better I might be at boxing I would barely be able to hurt them.

Not really. When you said "A truly nonsensical arbitrary hypothetical.." Russell Brand popped into my head. I work in a complex area where I have to explain very technical rules and tricky legislation to people from all walks of life. As soon as you start using language like that without any purpose you just alienate folk. It's just an observation - you are free to tell me to shove it. But calling me a caveman? Speak like that outside these forums and you won't be able to communicate properly with half of the English speaking world.

I’m going to go ahead and continue to give the average poster the respect and benefit of the doubt that they could decode my post without a headache. You can redress your post now but you quite blatantly insinuated stupidity on my part. Your advice about how I may or may not speak away from the forum is utterly irrelevant. It has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

Finally your reply to limerickcitykid has taken you even further from the point of the thread, to the point of raising the question about why you posted here at all.

 

[P-Ro]

Finally your reply to limerickcitykid has taken you even further from the point of the thread, to the point of raising the question about why you posted here at all.

Does this response have any bearing on the topic in hand? Your subsequent responses have been to insult me and then to defend your reputation. I'm sorry for insinuating stupidity, next time I won't.

 

[SER19]

Does this response have any bearing on the topic in hand? Your subsequent responses have been to insult me and then to defend your reputation. I'm sorry for insinuating stupidity, next time I won't.

I'm commenting directly on the direction you took the conversation. He responded to your initial digression with a fair point about size which you then took even further. The point stands that you are applying hypothetical scenarios to a post about what makes a player 'hard' within the game. Any queries to that point you can revert to my initial post. The one that bothered you so much

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Robbo
Hughes
Keane
Vida
Rooney

 

[Bestietom]

Good punch, but for a so called boxer he walked straight into it.

 

[Moriarty]

have we done the Italians?

Benetti & Gentile

filthiest team at Old Trafford I saw was probably Valencia in 1982 - all game, all of them

If we did, we'd have a 500 page thread.

 

[BaseFishing]

Scholesy wasn't particularly hard but he was a bit dirty.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Good punch, but for a so called boxer he walked straight into it.

Weren’t they all on the booze when this happened? If so, can’t really critique the quality

 

[lysglimt]

Have lost count of the amount of times I’ve read about the hypothetical Roy Keane vs Duncan Ferguson fight. It’s mentioned so many times one could be forgiven for thinking it was something that was actually touted or expected to happen between the two. A truly nonsensical arbitrary hypothetical that actually has nothing to do with the discussion. Entertaining the idiocy of it, even in professional fighting, a ‘hard’ person can be beaten to a pulp. So whether or not Duncan Ferguson would be the better street brawler or grappler or fecking kickboxer is absolutely irrelevant.

On topic, Roy Keane was one of the ‘hardest’ players united have ever had, and was dirty more than a few times. Robson, cantona, vidic, even evra possibly fits the mould. Didn’t shirk a challenge, was not intimidated by a single player or scenario and if needed could be trusted to weigh in.

Considering that Roy Keane was a very good amateur boxer - he probably would have won most fights.

 

[lysglimt]

Kevin Muscat was a dirty, odious thug, and has a long list of horrible tackles for numerous different clubs and for Australia.

To me it was karma that he missed the 2004 FA Cup with Millwall through a knee injury, and was dropped by Hiddink for Australia’s 2006 World Cup qualification campaign and then the main tournament itself.

Yeah - he was one of the Worst. Anyone remember a Birmingham-fullback named Mark Dennis ? He was a lunatic...

 

[JSArsenal]

Not a single mention of an Arsenal player?

Vieira, Keown Adams, Bould and Parlour were all hard. Bergkamp could mix it up at times as well.

 

[montpelier]

Peter Storey

 

[Moriarty]

Not a single mention of an Arsenal player?

Vieira, Keown Adams, Bould and Parlour were all hard. Bergkamp could mix it up at times as well.

Indeed they could but the stand-out for me has to be Peter Storey. Frank McClintock was pretty useful too and Terry Neill. Again, all tough guys but damned good players. John Radford always gave as good as he got and Charlie George wasn't afraid to go in where it hurt. That 1971 side was a very good team.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Not a single mention of an Arsenal player?

Vieira, Keown Adams, Bould and Parlour were all hard. Bergkamp could mix it up at times as well.

Parlour? I remember him skulking around the background of shoving matches trying to get cheeky digs in here and there. Bit sneaky.

Lucas Neil was a bit dirty. Carragher was another that was dirty without being a hard man.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Peter Storey

Well he was a dirty bastard! Got done for smuggling porn, dirty fecker!

 

[Inigo Montoya]

If we're looking for dirty,hard men you'd have to go lower into the divisions. Lots of tougher guys, you'd walk across the road to avoid

 

[Class of 63]

Terry Hurlock aka Terry Warlock was a nasty bugger, Graeme Souness signed him for Rangers from Millwall to add a bit of steel to a team not short of players happy to leave a foot in.

 

[Moriarty]

Well he was a dirty bastard! Got done for smuggling porn, dirty fecker!

Ran a knocking shop too, and got done for counterfeiting gold coins. Bit of a lad he was.

 

[Moriarty]

Terry Hurlock aka Terry Warlock was a nasty bugger, Graeme Souness signed him for Rangers from Millwall to add a bit of steel to a team not short of players happy to leave a foot in.

Kenny Burns at Brum and Forest was another one. Cloughie liked to have a couple of hard men around as long as they could play. Colin Todd (who we should have signed) and Roy McFarland at Derby spring to mind and that bald Welshman who played for Derby and Forest whose name escapes me. I remember him whacking Willie Morgan so hard the entire Stretford End winced.

Edit: Terry Hennessey

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Ran a knocking shop too, and got done for counterfeiting gold coins. Bit of a lad he was.

Brilliant!

Ripe for character in a comedy/drama

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Kenny Burns at Brum and Forest was another one. Cloughie liked to have a couple of hard men around as long as they could play. Colin Todd (who we should have signed) and Roy McFarland at Derby spring to mind and that bald Welshman who played for Derby and Forest whose name escapes me. I remember him whacking Willie Morgan so hard the entire Stretford End winced.

Edit: Terry Hennessey

Burns had a fight in a car park once against some 'fans' who thought they could have a go. Only one winner!

Ron 'chopper' Harris could be a nasty bastard. Deliberately broke a kid's hand on the pitch by stamping on it.

Guy I worked with told me that Harris slapped Micky Droy really hard in the office once for talking back to him. Droy was about 6fft 5!

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Was Roy Keane actually hard? He was very mentally tough and dirty but he'd get destroyed in fight against a genuine hardman like John Fashanu or Duncan Ferguson.

Eh?

 

[crossy1686]

Isn't there a story where Robbie Keane knocked out Edgar Davids after training when they were both at Spurs? apparently Keane was a bare knuckle boxer back in Ireland.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

My idea of hard is more so not letting any thugs physically bully you and affect your game. Bravery, especially young lads, who older players would look to intimidate and bully, not shying away and keep asking for the ball. Any moron can step onto a pitch and thrown themselves into challenges or scrape someone's Achilles.

 

[Wolf8312]

Just interested to know how people can truly determine if a player was genuinely hard (a good fighter) or just an aggressive or dirty player on the pitch.

Okay Duncan ferguson is a bit of a given as he beats up Burglars for breakfast, but even in his case as I, and most fans have never seen him fight (that head butt didn't seem to make much contact) how do people know for sure either way? I guess it just filters down from the players themselves...

In regards to Roy Keane, boxer or not, I think most people would find him pretty intimidating, but he also strikes me as the kind of person of whom there's probably a paradox to his nature, in that what he's truly afraid of, is backing down, or showing any weakness in front of others.

Kind of a Tony Soprano, type A mentality, which you can respect from afar, in the context of sport, but at the same time know up close he would probably not be enjoyable company.

God how united miss a guy like that now though!

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

Yeah yuh

 

[Gio]

Terry Hurlock aka Terry Warlock was a nasty bugger, Graeme Souness signed him for Rangers from Millwall to add a bit of steel to a team not short of players happy to leave a foot in.

Great shout. He was a walking yellow card - used to rack up about 15 a season in an era when you had to basically maim someone to get a booking.

 

[sully07]

Terry Hurlock aka Terry Warlock was a nasty bugger, Graeme Souness signed him for Rangers from Millwall to add a bit of steel to a team not short of players happy to leave a foot in.

My memory isn't the best but I used to go and watch Brentford in my teens when I couldn't afford to go up to see Utd and they had Hurlock and Kammy in midfield with an old Ron 'Chopper' Harris at fullback. I am sure they were all in the same team for one season and often ended up with 10 men.

 

[Class of 63]

Great shout. He was a walking yellow card - used to rack up about 15 a season in an era when you had to basically maim someone to get a booking.

I know he liked an Englishman, there were 9 in the squad the season Hurlock signed but it seemed such a weird transfer at the time, didn't Souness bring him in as a direct replacement for that other hatchet man Ray Wilkins?

My memory isn't the best but I used to go and watch Brentford in my teens when I couldn't afford to go up to see Utd and they had Hurlock and Kammy in midfield with an old Ron 'Chopper' Harris at fullback. I am sure they were all in the same team for one season and often ended up with 10 men.

If true it probably explains why nobody would play them in the five-a-side league that season

 

[Gio]

I know he liked an Englishman, there were 9 in the squad the season Hurlock signed but it seemed such a weird transfer at the time, didn't Souness bring him in as a direct replacement for that other hatchet man Ray Wilkins?

Aye. As a young kid at the time I just didn't understand why we'd bought this guy to go around fouling people in midfield all game long. But Souness - as one himself - was always big on midfield enforcers and hard men in general to give a platform for the more skillful players to shine. With UEFA's three foreigner rule coming in, we had to get rid of a load of Englishmen and I think he was moved on for Stuart McCall.

 

[Class of 63]

Aye. As a young kid at the time I just didn't understand why we'd bought this guy to go around fouling people in midfield all game long. But Souness - as one himself - was always big on midfield enforcers and hard men in general to give a platform for the more skillful players to shine. With UEFA's three foreigner rule coming in, we had to get rid of a load of Englishmen and I think he was moved on for Stuart McCall.

I can't recall how much he'd played himself the previous seasons(if at all), but Souness retired as a player the season he signed Hurlock, and on the UEFA ruling i'm not sure he cared because it's almost certain he knew he was going to Liverpool at the end of the season, if not sooner

 

[Gio]

I can't recall how much he'd played himself the previous seasons(if at all), but Souness retired as a player the season he signed Hurlock, and on the UEFA ruling i'm not sure he cared because it's almost certain he knew he was going to Liverpool at the end of the season, if not sooner

Yeah I think it was Smith who moved him on, along with Woods, Steven, Walters, Spackman.

 

[MemphisDepay]

Big Troy Boy is a real hard man

 

[simplyared]

Not a single mention of an Arsenal player?

Vieira, Keown Adams, Bould and Parlour were all hard. Bergkamp could mix it up at times as well.

You cannot have been around when he was playing for Arsenal. You've mentioned the club and named some of it's so called hard men, but you've missed the biggest butcher of them all: Peter Storey. Nasty piece of work he was! To this day never seen anyone as bad as he was.