Have continental Europe's elite teams declined?

[Casanova85]

PSG: too soon to say something. As long as they have Neymar and Mbappé they'll be UCL favorites. Need to stop bottling it. Might be pyschological. Neymar needs to stop getting injured.

Bayern: give them two years to rebuild. They'll cannibalize the bundesliga and eredivisie again.

Juventus: 19-20 will be 18-19 part II. Same project. Too soon to judge.

Real Madrid: they need a perfect summer transfer window, or they'll struggle in every competition.

Barça: they need Umtiti in perfect form again and a new CF. Midfield with Arthur and De Jong should be more than enough. Busquets needs to rest a lot more (play Vidal as a pure DMF?). Not sure if they'll sign De Ligt but they will certainly try. Valverde must be sacked, he's too lethargic and fearful to handle the UCL, and he's not a "4-3-3 Barça manager" anyway. Question is: who? Ten Hag? He looks like Guardiola. Ronald Koeman? They should secure another Liga title though, even with a new manager with zero experience in Spain. Perfect scenario on paper: Ter Stegen-Semedo-Piqué-De Ligt-Alba-Vidal-De Jong-Arthur-Messi-NEW CF (who?)-Dembélé.


Those are (current) continental Europe's elite teams, in my opinion, with all due respect.

 

[adexkola]

Bayern: give them two years to rebuild. They'll cannibalize the bundesliga and eredivisie again..

It's been highlighted multiple times that the bolded has been a myth in recent years, with the PL doing more of the plundering. But that won't stop you.

 

[Casanova85]

It's been highlighted multiple times that the bolded has been a myth in recent years, with the PL doing more of the plundering. But that won't stop you.

We'll see.

 

[Siorac]

It's been highlighted multiple times that the bolded has been a myth in recent years, with the PL doing more of the plundering. But that won't stop you.

They'll probably still sign players from the Bundesliga. It will be part of their rebuilding, even if Premier League clubs are in on it, too.

 

[Njord]

On national team level, it seems Germany, Spain and Italy have regressed from their level from 5-15 years ago. The best players from teams these have usually played for the biggest domestic teams, do there may be a connection there.

National teams on the rise seems to be France, England, Netherlands and Portugal, all of which have traditionally been big suppliers for the PL.

 

[King7Eric]

And you have already started with the rebuilding. Many of your players are easy to sell for a good fee.
Your team is still top 3 among most desireable destinations for players for footballing reasons.

Biggest issues for your club are: What happens when Messi declines? Your players seems to have a little to much power. And you need to find replacements for Suarez, Busq and Pique soon.

Mate I'm not a Barca fan. I'm a Utd fan who's currently living in Barcelona.

As for the rebuild, De Jong and De Ligt ( if he comes) alone won't be enough. They need a top quality CF and another winger imo. Dembele hasn't shown anywhere near the amount of consistency so far, though of course time is on his side.

 

[Casanova85]

Mate I'm not a Barca fan. I'm a Utd fan who's currently living in Barcelona.

Oh, you're going to morph into a barça fan sooner than you think, you'll end up supporting both teams.

 

[King7Eric]

Oh, you're going to morph into a barça fan sooner than you think, you'll end up supporting both teams.

Yeah that's not going to happen. If anything I hate Barca even more than I did before coming here. Anyway, I'm gonna be leaving this place this year and I'm quite happy about it too. I've got a general aversion for all things Catalan after living here.

 

[Siorac]

Yeah that's not going to happen. If anything I hate Barca even more than I did before coming here. Anyway, I'm gonna be leaving this place this year and I'm quite happy about it too. I've got a general aversion for all things Catalan after living here.

Wow, why?

(I've never been there).

 

[Angry Virginian]

And you have already started with the rebuilding. Many of your players are easy to sell for a good fee.
Your team is still top 3 among most desireable destinations for players for footballing reasons.

Biggest issues for your club are: What happens when Messi declines? Your players seems to have a little to much power. And you need to find replacements for Suarez, Busq and Pique soon.

Barca can probably afford 2 or 3 additional world class players once Messi retires and his wage bills are off the book.

 

[Casanova85]

Yeah that's not going to happen. If anything I hate Barca even more than I did before coming here. Anyway, I'm gonna be leaving this place this year and I'm quite happy about it too. I've got a general aversion for all things Catalan after living here.

Not the best time to be around there for a long time, no. Brexit sometimes gets dwarfed next to the "independencia issue". Tiresome.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

It is just the effect of massive TV right money start to surface in EPL.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Mate I'm not a Barca fan. I'm a Utd fan who's currently living in Barcelona.

As for the rebuild, De Jong and De Ligt ( if he comes) alone won't be enough. They need a top quality CF and another winger imo. Dembele hasn't shown anywhere near the amount of consistency so far, though of course time is on his side.

My mistake.

With De Jong and Arthur in Midfield. Some very talented youngsters coming through, a number of players that can easily be sold for a decent fee, top destination for players wanting to play rather than earn... Do not see them having problems long term.

 

[King7Eric]

Wow, why?

(I've never been there).

I think I should issue a disclaimer that this is solely my view and probably most won't agree with me, but I feel that while this place is a perfect holiday destination, the working culture here leaves a lot to be desired. Everything here moves so slowly and there's just a houlier than thou attitude among people here. They will find a way to bring how Catalans are superior to the Spanish in almost every conversation (and I'm not Spanish or even European so its not like I have any clouded judgement here). While they are undoubtedly friendly, at times its almost too much idle chatter. You go to a shop or pharmacy and you'll be waiting in line while the customer and shopkeeper regale their entire life stories to each other. I much prefer the German and Nordic way of efficient coldness when you are working.

Then there's of course the Independence issue which @Casanova85 alludes to. It finds a way into every conversation and its extremely tiresome. How great Catalonia would be if independent and how Spain is holding it back.

 

[King7Eric]

Not the best time to be around there for a long time, no. Brexit sometimes gets dwarfed next to the "independencia issue". Tiresome.

Amen to that.

 

[Kapardin]

PSG haven't declined, they have been this way for a long time. Regular last 16'ers bar the time they went a bit further under Blanc, but that's it.

 

[ivaldo]

No it's just English Team catched up and stop playing kick and rush football. Also binned bad English managers out of the league and hired the best ones

This has been the case for years, despite this insistence that we played ‘kick and rush.’

If anything this year the English teams have played something more akin to what we see in the Premier League than. You can see Ajax and Barca struggled to cope with the intensity of Spurs and Liverpool.

 

[adexkola]

They'll probably still sign players from the Bundesliga. It will be part of their rebuilding, even if Premier League clubs are in on it, too.

That is true, but the top talents from the Bundesliga are more likely to end up in England than at Bayern. Sancho hasn't been linked with Bayern I think.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In answer to thread title.

Yes, definitely.

 

[adexkola]

PSG turfed out by United
Juventus and Real Madrid turfed out by underdogs Ajax
Liverpool put 4 past Barca as well as easily beating Bayern on their own turf
Serie A runners up Napoli brushed aside by the 5th best team in England
Spurs outclassing a highly praised Dortmund side

The big boys of Europe suddenly don't look so big, so have they really declined or is this just a freak year? I feel iterations of these teams from the past were mentally stronger and therefore would not have suffered from tremendous comebacks by the other team.

Is this a consequence of playing in leagues where the quality rapidly declines outside of the top 2/3/4 teams?

This narrative (bolded) is nonsense.

It used to be, "the competitiveness of the PL has held the PL teams back in Europe". Now it's "the lack of competitiveness in other leagues means their top teams can't compete with ours". Based on one season?

And where is this league quality? City and Liverpool? Excellent teams, definitely top 5 teams in Europe. The rest of the top 6? They've been collectively abysmal, especially in the past few weeks. 23 points between Liverpool and Chelsea, the number 3 side that has been trashed from all corners after November of this season. The rest of the league? There's a 9 point gap between United and Wolves, and more teams between United and Cardiff are closer to Cardiff than they are to United.

 

[Theonas]

Compared to what? I struggle to name a single great European side in the '00s up until 2009. Barcelona had that one great season with Ronaldinho and Milan were doing a Real and saving it for the CL whilst being poor in the Serie A. Juventus, Real and Bayern barely an impact to the point where we had the likes of Monaco, Porto, a truly mediocre Liverpool and Arsenal's weakest in ages making finals. This decade had an all time great in Barcelona and two super sides in Bayern and Real but that was hardly the norm. If anything European football has more competitions nowadays than in most recent eras.

 

[dbs235]

My mistake.

With De Jong and Arthur in Midfield. Some very talented youngsters coming through, a number of players that can easily be sold for a decent fee, top destination for players wanting to play rather than earn... Do not see them having problems long term.

I don't think they'll have problems, but I think Messi and Ronaldo leaving Barca and Madrid will level the playing field a lot. Can't see them dominating the same way they did this decade. The title of Europe's top team should change hands a lot more frequently.

 

[Cait Sith]

Yeah, Juve, Barca, Real, Bayern obviously all in decline. But English teams have not really catched up. It's just Liverpool have the best manager in the world and Spurs are nowhere near the top 5 sides in the world despite reaching the CL final this year. City are top 5 but they have a manager who does not know how to set up defense in CL knockout games (Barca DNA). The rest of the English teams are not better than 5 years ago (Chelsea, Arsenal, United etc.).

 

[Charles Miller]

Why? Because the Champions League have become the Premions League? The EPL clubs progressed because the majority of the best managers are working in the league.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Liverpool have a very strong side but Juve and, in particular, City must be kicking themselves this year.

 

[carvajal]

Barcelona need a new president who stops signing patches and a coach that returns the style.
In short, Barcelona in another situation would not go to play thinking that losing 3-1 is enough.
Romario-Rivaldo-Deco-Ronaldinho-Messi.
They always find a different player that fits perfectly and guides them within their style. Personally, I think neither Coutinho nor Dembelé represent that type of player.

On the other hand I wonder if there is some pressure for the club / Messi to end his career with a great project which would clash with the return to the origins.
Madrid is in a sorry state, but Madrid have always been more anarchic, accustomed to feats in hard times, so they can return in a few months and spend years from crisis to crisis.
Atletico is exhausted, but I think they live happy with their stability.
It will happen as always, they will sign and sign but in the moment of truth he will play with the style of years ago, when he had Antonio López,,Thiago,Pereira etc.

I think I should issue a disclaimer that this is solely my view and probably most won't agree with me, but I feel that while this place is a perfect holiday destination, the working culture here leaves a lot to be desired. Everything here moves so slowly and there's just a houlier than thou attitude among people here. They will find a way to bring how Catalans are superior to the Spanish in almost every conversation (and I'm not Spanish or even European so its not like I have any clouded judgement here). While they are undoubtedly friendly, at times its almost too much idle chatter. You go to a shop or pharmacy and you'll be waiting in line while the customer and shopkeeper regale their entire life stories to each other. I much prefer the German and Nordic way of efficient coldness when you are working.

Then there's of course the Independence issue which @Casanova85 alludes to. It finds a way into every conversation and its extremely tiresome. How great Catalonia would be if independent and how Spain is holding it back.

I am one of those.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

I don't think they'll have problems, but I think Messi and Ronaldo leaving Barca and Madrid will level the playing field a lot. Can't see them dominating the same way they did this decade. The title of Europe's top team should change hands a lot more frequently.

Barcelona will most likely need to find a new initiator in attack, but they at least do have a team full of good ball players and a preference for owning the ball.

I think Liverpool, City and maybe Tottenham will be the dominant forces from EPL. Barca, Bayern and PSG the others.

 

[adexkola]

Why? Because the Champions League have become the Premions League? The EPL clubs progressed because the majority of the best managers are working in the league.

I doubt it. Big Sam with City's resources would have them top of the league. It's just money.

 

[King7Eric]

Barcelona need a new president who stops signing patches and a coach that returns the style.
In short, Barcelona in another situation would not go to play thinking that losing 3-1 is enough.
Romario-Rivaldo-Deco-Ronaldinho-Messi.
They always find a different player that fits perfectly and guides them within their style. Personally, I think neither Coutinho nor Dembelé represent that type of player.

On the other hand I wonder if there is some pressure for the club / Messi to end his career with a great project which would clash with the return to the origins.
Madrid is in a sorry state, but Madrid have always been more anarchic, accustomed to feats in hard times, so they can return in a few months and spend years from crisis to crisis.
Atletico is exhausted, but I think they live happy with their stability.
It will happen as always, they will sign and sign but in the moment of truth he will play with the style of years ago, when he had Antonio López,,Thiago,Pereira etc.

I am one of those.

Yeah I'm sure it's a cultural thing here and I'm sure plenty would find it endearing but it just isn't for me I guess.

 

[giorno]

Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern definitely

Juventus unlucky with injuries and poor form

Dortmund are actually on the rise, just not as good as Spurs yet

Napoli same story as juventus, poor form. They also absolutely smashed liverpool at home this season, 0 shots on target for liverpool in that game, and all in all were probably the best team in terms of performances in the 3-teams mini-group against PSG and Liverpool.
Spurs lost to Inter and got clowned by Barcelona at home

PSG are just the biggest bottlers ever

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Xavi and Iniesta are gone. Messi has declined slightly.

Ronaldo declined slightly and moved. Modric has declined.

Lewandowski has declined and Robben and Ribery are finished.

Italian teams cant/wont spend with the big boys.

United is in shambles.

Looks like the top teams now value sticking to a strict gameplan with players that fit, continuity, hard work, and luck. Yes luck.

 

[Moriarty]

I thinks these things are cyclical. Look at us. In the 1960s, we were winning titles and a European Cup. The team aged, Busby didn't want to build another and we went on the slide. Fast forward to 2013 when the same happened. It happened to Liverpool and Leeds as well. Real are currently undergoing a rebuild, and Barca must be on the cusp of one. Milan will surely be back at some point. Bayern will rebuild too. I just hope, for us, that our bust cycle doesn't last 26 years because I'll be long dead before we win it again.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Have continental elite teams declined? Compared to English clubs - of course.

The money in the EPL is astronomical. Clubs like Everton, Wolves, West Ham and Leicester significantly outspend traditional European super powers. I'd be amazed if there wasn't at least one English club in the Champions League final for the next 5 years minimum.

If United don't get their act together in the near future, you could have another couple of English clubs surpass United's 3 European cups in the next decade.

That’s not entirely correct. The bit about Wolves, Leicester spending.
Juventus spent over 180 million on Higuain and Ronaldo. Atletico have been spending big for a few years now. Barcelona spent 300 million on Coutinho and Dembele. I guess Reals spending has been on a decline but they did win three European Cups on the trot. Bayern still spend and PSG. I’d say those premier league teams you mentioned spend more than their foreign mid table counterparts but definitely more than the big European clubs.

 

[padr81]

For me.

PSG - More talent than but a worse dressing room than United. Lots of good footballers, huge ego's but no fight. Were unlucky to go out vs United in fairness. Same level they've always been. - Same level.

Juve - Adding ronnie looked like it was the final piece of the puzzle, but yet again they've come up short. Struggled a little more in Serie A this season at times. I'd say they are the same level they've been too. Still and elite side just without the mentality. - Same Level but only thanks to Ronaldo arriving.

Real - Too old, no Ronaldo. I think the WC took a lot out of their aging midfield players. Also seem to have dressing room issues. Bale is a crock, Benzema is ok, Isco seems to have an attitude problem. Big rebuild on. - Big Decline

Barca - Too old like Real, had a good season though. Haven't declined as much as the Liverpool game made it look but they can't deal with intensity. Suarez offers nothing but finishing. Lots of average footballers surrounding a few good ones. Messi, Rakitic and a few old men. Dembele and Coutinho haven't set the place on fire after big money moves. Way too relient on one man. I actually think it might be best for both parties if Messi and Barca parted ways. - Big Decline on their peak, moderate decline on last couple of seasons being papered over somewhat by Messi.

Bayern - Caught in a season of rebuilding. Boateng, Ribery, Robben all look done and they need Gnabry, Coman etc.. to kick on. I would say next season or the one after we'll have an immense Bayern back. I expect them to compete at the top end of the CL before Barca or Real again. - Moderate Decline on the Pep era Big Decline on Heyneckes. But improving.

 

[adexkola]

I actually think it might be best for both parties if Messi and Barca parted ways. -Moderate Decline being papered over somewhat by Messi.
.

How?

 

[Casanova85]

. I actually think it might be best for both parties if Messi and Barca parted ways. - Big Decline on their peak, moderate decline on last couple of seasons being papered over somewhat by Messi.

That's what you cheeky City fans want: Messi to City. Ain't happening.

 

[Untd55]

Strange that some people seem to be trying hard to deny that the Premier League has strengthened. Currently, 3 of the European cup finalists are English; pending Chelsea result, so could be 100% (That is a clear indication of strength).

Arsenal - fifth-place team in the Premier League - have just destroyed the fifth-place team in La Liga.

Liverpool were the better team in both legs against Barcelona. Destroyed Barcelona in the second game. I think Man City would have destroyed Barcelona as well.

Tottenham are a great team - dominated Ajax in the second half of yesterday's game.
People seem to forget that Tottenham were the better team against Juventus last season across both legs, apart from 15mins of stupidity.
They also played well against Real Madrid the season before that. So, it is not like this is the first season they have performed well in the Champions League.

Chelsea are a bit of an odd one, admittedly.

Manutd are the only ones who have failed miserably in every way.

 

[RedFish]

Swings and roundabouts, or summat.

 

[Casanova85]

Manutd are the only ones who have failed miserably in every way.

Have we forgotten the 1-3 at Paris? Or Barça being gray and shit for most of the QF tie? Poor Ole.

 

[POF]

That’s not entirely correct. The bit about Wolves, Leicester spending.
Juventus spent over 180 million on Higuain and Ronaldo. Atletico have been spending big for a few years now. Barcelona spent 300 million on Coutinho and Dembele. I guess Reals spending has been on a decline but they did win three European Cups on the trot. Bayern still spend and PSG. I’d say those premier league teams you mentioned spend more than their foreign mid table counterparts but definitely more than the big European clubs.

You're only talking about Real, Barca, Juve Bayern and PSG. Apart from PSG, any of those clubs who spent significantly has had it offset by major sales.

But I wasn't talking about Real, Barca, Juve when comparing to Everton, Leicester, Wolves, etc. I was talking about the likes of Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Napoli, Atletico Madrid, Dortmund, Sevilla, Lyon, Porto, Benfica, Ajax, etc. All teams who were genuinely elite clubs around Europe in recent years who couldn't dream of competing financially with mid table EPL teams.

The EPL is far stronger because the best players and managers want to work there because it has the most money. That's why the European clubs are pushing so hard for a European Super League before you have Watford taking Bayern Munich's best players.