One thing everyone over looks is consistency. IMO we simply don't have players who can beat good teams on a consistence basis. After that miracle vs PSG, we went from taking nearly every chance to missing sitters against Arsenal and Wolves then it just went downhill with individual mistakes and Tactics. Of course if your strikers can't even hit the barn door, you're not winning anything.
I completely agree with this. The good form at the start of Ole's reign was based on an attack of Lingard, Rashford and Martial with Pogba the creative force in midfield. All 4 are extremely inconsistent players and extremely immature characters.
They are basically the only attacking players at the club capable of playing Ole's desired attacking style. After the inevitable drop off in form and tough fixture list, the goals dried up and by the end of the season, the team is struggling to score.
Even with all of that, the drop off in form is just unbelievable. The character of the players is so poor. It's a squad with absolutely no leadership quality at all. The club has basically turned into Arsenal but without the pretty football.
A bunch of mediocre, lazy players upped their game after they threw another manager under the bus, and when it looked like they've proven that it was the manager's fault and not theirs, they immediately reverted to their shit usual selves.
Just going to throw a theory out there. The first few games he merely had to refine Jose's template. He made positive tweaks and optimizations that Jose was too stubborn to make. The tactical organization in the first 3 or so games was night and day. After that it became a slow regression to the mean for the squad and the manager. Now it's worn off and he's struggling to create a template of his own and I'm just not sure he's capable
I think we can look at the PSG home game as a turning point
PSG (h) - Both Martial and Lingard injured in the first half, suddenly our attack which had looked so good up till then broken up. First loss under Ole as well
Chelsea (a) - Great performance and result albeit against a side who were 'downing tools'
Liverpool (h) - More injuries, Matic the day before the game, Herrera and Rashford during the game, suddenly our midfield which had looked so good up till then broken up. OT atmosphere basically got us through the game
Palace (a) - Good result albeit against a team awful at home
Southampton (h) - Late winner, gave away 2 goals the start of our defence starting to creek again?
PSG (a) - Magical night made more so by the team we had to field (Matic, Herrera, Martial and Lingard all still injured. Pogba suspended)
Arsenal (a) and beyond - well we know what happens from here on out
There could be a valid argument that the reasons things started going to shit when the UCL started up again is (apart from the disruption to the starting XI) due to the extra midweek game. Less work on the training ground to focus on fitness, team shape and style of play and more of a focus on recovery and the opposition and I believe there's studies that prove players will naturally revert to type in these scenarios and that's why the high pressing has gone, the counter attacking has gone, the team shape has gone etc etc
Or of course it was all just a new manager bounce and the players aren't actually that good
The players & nothing else. You can’t go from heroes to zeroes just like that. There is something fundamentally wrong with this group of players.
Like I said fit in or get out.
When he got the job he told them how wonderful they were and how they all deserved to be at United, which they needed to hear post Jose. Then they started getting complacent and certain players were phoning it in so he gave the team a bollocking and singled out individuals who hadn't been performing well enough, then they just reverted back to the shithouses they are.
Complacency by manager mostly and players minimally.
Lack of Confidenceto Manager by players later on.
Influential supporting reasons --> Ole's bizarre decision makings and many players usual behaviors of downing tools when they have problems with the manager.
CL/ Manchester United 3-1 PSG
The match that started the complacent effect to the players and especially more imo to the managers.
EPL/ Manchester United 2-0 Arse
Matic back from injury, clearly not fit enough for big games.
Ole decided to go autoMatic, first sign of complacency by manager?
Midfield of Pogba-Matic-Fred never worked.
Finishing is so bad and I got the impression our players are just playing around not serious, first sign of complacency by players?
Manager only used 2 subs. I believe this has negative effect to the team, the first one that started it. We're losing and basically Ole is saying he don't trust the other players left on the bench and trusting the players playing in a messy way not even close to getting a comeback.
FAC/ Manchester United 1-2 Wolves
Herrera back from injury, clearly not match fit.
Ole decided to go with Pogba-Matic-Herrera... so bad, Matic still looking to have rough fitness.
Ole and the coaches just sit on their bums while letting the players be.
The starting tactic continues in the 2nd half and so far clearly not working with our players struggling against Wolves.
Wolves grow in the match and gaining momentum, getting closer and closer.
Manager still let things be.
Wolves open the lock, and only then... Tch embarassing.
Anyway Ole only made changes after Wolves score and more changes after Wolves scored another.
Ole clearly admired Matic for him to last until almost the 90th mins is just bizarre.
Rashford pulled one back late in the dying mins.
EPL/ Manchester United 2-1 Watford
Good response by the players.
Ole insist on Herrera and Matic starting, still not match fit enough, our midfield got ran over.
Thankfully we pulled two goals back.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-2 Wolves
Finally Ole learned. Herrera and Matic rested.
Pogba-Fred-McT worked early on.
Starting tactics also worked with 5 defenders now and WB system to combat Wolves.
But unfortunately Ole lose the tactical game later on as Wolves adapted to ours.
Fred is the only doing the defensive cover with McT instructed to attack up high.
Wolves exposed us and we lose to the better team tactically.
Players getting frustrated and likely losing trust to manager continues here.
CL/ Manchester United 0-1 Barcelona
Ole made the right spot-on tactical and players selections decisions, which I believe restored some players trust and confidence to him.
Rashford and Lukaku are just so bad here, are they even trying?
EPL/ Manchester United 2-1 West Ham
Fair game.
The easiest one we had around this tough schedule.
CL/ Manchester United 0-3 Barcelona
Suicide tactics.
Only Fred to cover defense, with McT instructed to be high up the pitch, with us only having other 4 defenders.. Ole being naive.
From this match and so on, many players I believe just lost trust in Ole and started willingly or not downing their tools. Many of 'em still tried of course.
Our Forwards clearly stopped trying.
Pogba is clearly frustrated.
EPL/ Manchester United 0-4 Everton
Pure ridiculous by Ole, didn't learned his mistakes.
Pogba-Matic-Fred again which time and time gain showed they're so bad together.
Forwards are also embarassing, doubt they're even trying.
Ole dropped Herrera out completely likely because of the PSG rumour and contract issue <-- I believe this has negative effects on the team, manager will drop even the hardworking Herrera for asking better contract and likely agent using PSG to seal the deal. Pogba's probably the one that gets affected the most by this subtle statement by the manager.
Players continue losing their confidence and trust to manager.
EPL/ Manchester United 0-2 City
Skip, clearly the better team win.
Ole decided to dropped McTominay out completely, not even on bench for this is game is bizarre and I don't buy his "McT is not fit" story.
Fair to set-up 5 defenders system.
Fine 1st half but in the 2nd half especially after City score, many players just stopped trying. Subs are also rubbish.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-1 Chelsea
Ole call back Herrera and we see the improvements.
Not enough though, many players just stopped trying at this point. Martial didn't hide his frustrations in this pre-game.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-1 Huddersfield
We're on a long run of bad form.
Many players also clearly downing their tools here.
Overconfidence and well Ole are still giving chances to deadwood players eg. Sanchez is just pure amazing. Trustworthy manager
Yeah so I did a review on the games watching match reports and highlights, trying to find out where it all started...
1. So it's not the players that are being mainly complacency and all. Ole started to make bizarre decisions after the PSG comeback winning, sign of him being complacent.
2. Ole made the midfield mess decisions leading to a drop of services to the forwards. Defense eventually gets affected. Lossof confidence and form.
3. Downing tools. Many Players started to drop their games later on likely because they can't trust this rookie manager continue making those bizarre decisions.
4. And Ole actually did learned some of his mistakes, evidence from his later decisions. But still making many unreasonable decisions.
5. We actually have a clear system under Ole at first, then he changed it multiple times still trying to find one best system considering the circumstances of his fav players getting injuries, Herrera's contract problems, his favorite attacking force drop of forms and the bad forms later on.
Formation
Main favourite: 4-3-3/diamond formation with Pogba-Matic-Herrera and Martial-Lingard-Rashford (this is his favourites, and he tried to get this back but immaturely too rush eg. Matic and Herrera back from injury being rushed clearly not fit. He also stopped this when the Herrera' contract issue started and repalced Herrera with Fred, which spectacularly failed yet Ole insist on Pogba-Matic-Fred to works... should've switch Herrera with Mctominay, better choice. Also he stopped this when Lingard and Martial were injured and had bad forms afterwards.) He continue to rely with formation this later on with different forward combinations but failed.
Vs some teams 5-3-2 or 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 (the formation evolves in different phases atttacking/defending) eg. PSG, Barca, Wolves, City, he'll change it to a more secured/defensive formation for better chance head-to-head.
Vs weaker teams: 4-4-2 which only works once vs West Ham.
That may sounds simple, but Ole actually changes his system a lot in games. From the very start when he took over as caretaker manager, he consistently change it in games.
First clear system, Ole the Caretaker
4-3-3 is his default tactics with false RW, but it'll change when he sub out the front three. Also vs top team eg. Liverpool or Spurs, it'll be diamond with Lingard at #10.
So don't expect Ole to stick with one formation and one system the full 90 mins.
Teamplay
Usually attacking posession but can be sudden counter attacking in big games.
Still actually High Press but later on players downed their tools so you've got a messy team pressing.
Supposed to be short passing but Ole's player selections just are not helping, so later on Young and Shaw are given license to play more long balls.
Maintain fluidity with the front two or three interchange their positions.
Pogba early on focus more on attacking, but later on started to play more holding deep-passer role.
Some players will also be given special roles eg. Dalot and McTominay.
6. When did the mess started?
Popular opinion is the PSG comeback win game that started it all.
I agree but not the players being complacent, it's the rookie manager in a big club --> Ole being complacent, started to make this many naive decisions. Not all of his decisions are bad of course.
For me it's the Barca suicide game (2nd leg) that started it where most players downing their tools intentionally and not intentionally, based from their trust and confidence to the manager's capabilities. Look, I also criticized the players a lot as they deserved it, but let's not ignore they're still human beings. If your driver is driving the squad to the storm or iceberg and if your boss is just clearly lacking in the skills with no signs of learning, how can your players trust you. Naturally or intentionally, that lack of confidence and trust will affects team morale and then resulting in team performance dropping. Some players naturally but unwillingly will dropped their game, and the others intentionally dropped their efforts.
That said, I'm not forgiving most of the players for clearly stopped trying in the latter games since there are still players who still gave it their all despite that, and I think these players are those who are not affected by the whatever the driver/manager's decision makings are and will continue focusing on giving it their all (at least for this season) -- McTominay, Herrera, Lindelof, Fred, Andreas Pereira, Matic, Smalling, Bailly and Jones. I see these players were still playing to how they normally play and of course we know the latter 6 players have limitations and problems.
7. Tough Schedule.
Let's not forget those fixtures, we have..
6 games vs Top Teams
4 games vs decent mid-table teams.
2 games vs weak teams.
When Ole was appointed full time most of the players went back into their comfort zone.
Everyone could see the drop in performance ratings. We must get rid of this deadwood and bring players in who want to play for the club and fans and not their bank account. Oh, and promote Youth.
One thing is confidence (which I certainly think effects attitude and work ethic). Pretty much since the Arsenal defeat, coming after the PSG tie win, we looked different. A match that we actually played pretty well in despite the result ironically enough.
It’s like after that Arsenal defeat they just gave up or something.
First of all everyone (or at least a big part of the squad) put in 110% to prove that Mourinho was wrong, or the club was right to sack him.
Then phase 2 was to prove how they were really are, which coincides with the Spurs, Chelsea and PSG game.
Then their agent started telling how good they are, which is when everything fall apart. Rashford thinks he deserve a 300K contract, Pogba and DDG wanted 500K. Or perhaps it happened when the Club decided not to renew Valencia's contract, hence everyone down tools. When the Club decided not to offer 200K to Herrera (& Mata), DDG down tool in protest. Then every players start pointing finger. When Ole started scolding at the squad, they just think he is as bad as Mourinho.....
Not necessarily where it went wrong, but I was mightly disappointed that in the run up to our peak against PSG that Ole had been using the kids, either on the bench, or latterly as subs, then afterwards they're no where in sight.
As someone said that was possibly the point he knew he had the job, so care free Ole decided to stop taking risks, and reverted to more serious Ole, and the sort of manager he naturally is.
No matter who the manager is, he needs to spend big. This whole squad needs to be dismantled. There are several players not good enough or wanting out.
Well I haven’t a clue, but have enjoyed reading the very detailed and thoughtful posts in this thread. Such a nice change from The Manager Is Out Of His Depth or The Players Are Mercenary Frauds.
Mentality : This is the one which confuses me the most and has been happening since SAF left the club. We have had some of the top coaches at the club but they too became defensive really quick when things went wrong. Is it the recruitment where we have bought soft players who cant cope with the pressure or are just too moody. If someone here could explain it because this is a big reason for our demise since SAF.
In my opinion this part is misinterpreted, you don't play defensive football when you have mentally weak players, whatever that is supposed to mean, because defensive football is for a large part based on mental strength, discipline and resiliency. To me the obvious reason is the lack of skills, attacking football requires players that are technically proficient and consistent, that's where United has failed in the last 10 years, each and every years this club has become more and more a grafter sanctuary, to the point where we now see fans embrace it and only talk about effort and work rate.
are we really at the point where we’re asking “what went wrong” for a man who has been caretaker manager for half of his 6 month tenure; hasn’t actually signed a player; & has more points domestically than all but 2 teams that have set a record pace.
i have my doubts over OGS but can we support the manager for more than half a season please.
Well said. The 'Ole out' brigade are a joke. If we had have had Klopp after Moyes they would have been shouting for his head if he hadnt started well. Every manager deserves at least a preseason and full season. If like Moyes it shit all the way through with no improvement then feck em off early.
It hasn't gone wrong. It just went weirdly right for a while, then back to the expected level given the attitude and quality of the players. They just phoned it in more than ever this time round.
We've won 2 games and lost 7, in our last 10.
My friend, that is not the expected level of performance. Under Jose we were a bonafide 6th/7th place team. Under Solkjaer, first 3 months (title contenders) and then since the PSG game, relegation form.
I don't think anybody on this forum would say that our squad quality is akin to that of a team near the relegation zone.
When he got the job he told them how wonderful they were and how they all deserved to be at United, which they needed to hear post Jose. Then they started getting complacent and certain players were phoning it in so he gave the team a bollocking and singled out individuals who hadn't been performing well enough, then they just reverted back to the shithouses they are.
Simple, United have become the arrogant, complacent and lazy Liverpool side circa 1995 - 1999. You remember the one of 'spice boys' vintage: McManaman, McAteer, Redknapp, Collymore, Fowler et al?
Our players are far more interested in the incredible wealth and glamour associated with being Manchester United players and much less inclined to commit themselves to the dedication, determination and resilience that have built the traditions of this club for a quarter of a century. Let's be clear, the first 11 Premier League games (under Ole's reign) and United's performance against PSG in the Champion's League revealed that if those players want to apply themselves, they are as good as anyone. Sadly, there just isn't the will to deliver that level of consistent performance over a sustained period. It is too much like hard work for the players and they can't be bothered. By contrast, City and Liverpool players seemed to have developed exactly the culture, habits, behaviours and ways of working that United players have so freely abandoned.
I have stated in other threads and I will do so again here, that the biggest problem facing United is not the lack of quality in the squad, yes improvements are definitely required, I do not dispute that. Far more important, the biggest problem facing United today is the culture of the club. It is absolutely rotten to the core. There are players at United who see Ole as their 'mate' and think that they can manage him.
The problems at United are far from unresolvable and United are fortunate to have Sir Alex able to offer sage advice. That said, this is not a sticky plaster job. Ole needs to get out the scalpel and cut out the poison that is destroying the club's hard won reputation for excellence. Over the next two transfer windows up to half a dozen players must be shown the door. There can be no more delay. United have not just fallen behind City and Liverpool, but also now Spurs. The club that everyone wanted to go to will fast become the one that no-one wants to join. Drastic measures are needed.
1) the players
They're a bunch of tools. The biggest of which is Pogba. Love him as a personality, honestly. I'm talking his out there style, playfulness, etc. But my god the ups and down in professionalism are intolerable. A picture says a thousand words : see the Instagram photo he posted after Jose was sacked. To then go on the poty performance run to screeching halt when Zidane talks up his move is damning.
As a collective, their performances were a complete 180 from Ole's first match. And not after a settling period with the new coaches... immediately. And it was sustained for several months! That overnight change is not because Ole and the staff are geniuses. It's because the players decide to be professional...and in many ways some of the quickness, focus and transition patterns we saw are the same that Jose was working on over the summer and players didn't employ with any regularity until, oh big surprise, they got their hard nosed manager out and an all smiles, play with freedom manager came in.
2) the players
The honeymoon period for Ole was brilliant because the season was already over - 4th place out of sight, PSG battering on the horizon, maybe some fun in the FA Cup ahead. He told the players to play with freedom, attack over defense and enjoy themselves. The winning run, sursprisingly put us back into contention for 4th and with added fortune, past PSG. All of a sudden Ole is also given the permanent job. As a man of ambition and United soul his tone transitions from 'have fun boys' to 'buckle down and focus, hard work, tactical study to best teams like Barca and formidable Wolves, more hard work to grind out against battling mid table teams. Actual responsibility and professionalism was again required.
It's interesting to note that this coincides with a shift in what Ole tells the press. From "we have amazing players " to "there are those that need to work harder and show they want to play".
All of a sudden the substitute teacher is assigning homework, asking 'a lot ' more of these players than they probably expected to have to do the rest of the season. And having secured Ole's permanent position during the honeymoon, many obviously did turn off the engines. With more games on the horizon that can't simply be won by enjoying themselves, professionalism is required. Lots of running. Indeed many a player sustains injury but that's what happens when you push your body after going months half arsing it. Is it a bother to return to that level of effort, apparently not for many of these players.
And as the season nears it's end, loss after loss, being out worked and outplayed by Watford, West Ham, Wolves, Everton, Ole's language is rather explicit. "many of them won't be here much longer"
That's a huge change from when Ole has come in and it really epitomizes how much this is down to the players.
3) Woodward
He is nothing special at business and he is awful as a football executive. The exorbitant salaries are a testament to that. The petty penny pinching with Inter trying to 'outfox' them is a testament to that. Missing the release clause and overpaying for Marouane Fellaini is a testament to that. The sponsorship deals we've made are nothing any run of the mill salesman couldn't do. Chevy sponsors everyone and their mother. Adidas has been pining for us to leave Nike for decades. Kohler is a fecking toilet company. We're Manchester United. World's biggest global football name. Woodward showed no masterminded ability in any of these deals.
Sooo, getting back to the poor results. We begin to stumble at the end of the winning run and bam, Ole is given the full time role. By this point there were pundits drooling over Ole, the players posting reminiscent photos of their interim manager and a general good feeling from the public. To make this serious appointment after only recently saying there would be a thorough search is astonishing. To be swayed so easily by others opinions, if that was the behind it, is unacceptable for one in his position. To think it was the right decision as a football executive who has just seen multiple experienced managers fail in grand fashion is unacceptable. I would not be surprised if the decision made the players themselves feel powerful.
In the background of all this we also had several contract renewals ongoing. In the end we saw Jones, Martial and Young renewed. Herrera in talks with PSG. Mata in limbo. Pogba openly courting Zidane. It's a mess of distraction and the outcomes or lack thereof tells of an executive out of his depth.
4) Ole
Frankly, he fell victim to making judgement before he arrived. Like many of the fans he seems to have thought that Jose's hardline stance and man management along with negative tactics were solely at fault. Many of the squad were part of Ole's youth setup and he was familiar with their ability and also perhaps that they needed more love than stick to perform. The biggest issue I think was how openly he spoke about this in the early months - how great the squad was. Without getting to truly know the state of affairs he stuck his nose out for the players, openly questioned Alexis and sold Fellaini immediately. Now he looks a bit of a nepotistic knob and the team isn't exactly going to be happy that his tune has changed to 'ill sell you all'
The only two things missing from this post are stamp and an envelope addressed to Messrs Solksjaer and Woodward.
It beggars belief that the board, management and coaching staff cannot discern what is now common knowledge across fan forums. If they cannot, then the problems affecting United are deeper and more serious than anyone realises. In the last six years United has become a completely different entity. It is sobering to think how the entire United family had become so accustomed to success that it little realised that within six years of Fergie's retirement, the entire edifice would be in danger of collapse. I have said elsewhere on this forum that United WILL NOT be able to buy it's way out of this problem. Yes, signings are needed, to address obvious areas of weakness, but if we think that all we need are a few big name and high profile recruitments, to make it all better, we are kidding ourselves.
In four of the last six seasons, United spent in excess £100m bring on new players and in each of those years, where expenditure exceeded £100m, the club finished 4th in 2014/15 (£145.5m gross spend), 5th in 2015/16 (£103m gross spend), 6th in 2016/17 (£149m gross spend) and 2nd in 2017/18 (£146m gross spend).
If simply throwing money at this problem is the way to solve it, where is the evidence?
They were celebrating that Mou was gone. The first motivation was to prove, that Mou was the problem. Then they enjoyed their winning-streak, but once the streak was over, the motivation was over.
No winter break or new signings, but they had their streak right after Mou was gone, that can not be coincidence. There must be someone quality in the team to deliver that top performance. That is why I don't think, that with a pre-season and money spending Ole will turn things around.
The run of tough fixtures was always going to halt the momentum but that was over when all they needed to do was beat Huddersfield and Cardiff to be in with a great chance of grabbing a top four spot.
A defeat under Fergie always meant we would come back more determined. It now means our players go into hiding.
I think the bigger question is how does he put it right and more importantly are Ole and his management team able to.
Some solid posts on here about the problem which I agree with but with all great squads you need the following;
Leaders - we have none but need 3 or 4 (Pogba could be, Smalling & Linderlof maybe?)
Two players of similar ability competing for just 1 place (Martial & Rashford For Left wing striker was successful then we bought Alexis!)
Balanced Squad meaning we have 4 wing backs, 2 operate on the left and 2 operate on the right, not aging converted wingers.
A Director of Football that prevents managers like LVG and Mourinho selling Raphiel, Michael Keane, Adnan Januaji and Memphis.
Young players with energy giving their chances.
I'm not sure that Ole and his team can fix all that overnight and right now what I would like to see is some solid transfers that improve us from 5th to 6th which is where we've been for the last 6 years to competing with Spurs as the third best team in the PL on a consistent basis with 80 points per season. Then and only then when teams like Wolves, Everton, Brighton, West Ham and Watford are easily beaten at Old Trafford can the club move forward.
The problem for Ole, however is he does not have Jose track record to fall back on and on trophies alone, there are at least 15 managers in the PL far more successful than him, even Roy Hodgson has managed clubs like Fulham in European club finals!
As soon as Zidane flirted with Pogba one month ago, Pogba instantly downed tools to show the board that this is how it will be from now on if you don't give me that dream move.
De Gea realize after, that if he was to guarantee his £500,000 a week deal at PSG goes through, then he had to copy what Pogba was doing.
Not finishing top 4 would guarantee Pogba and De Gea the excuse they needed to get the dream or double the money contracts elsewhere.
Herrera in the meantime had already agreed to go to PSG behind the scenes and suddenly pulled up with a mystery unexplainable injury for a month when he had been our best player during the winning run.
You have to wonder too, if the likes of Rashford were underwhelmed as having Ole as permanent manager, where they were happy to fight for him in the short term, in the hope that maybe a Pochettino would be brought in in the summer.
No matter who the manager is, he needs to spend big. This whole squad needs to be dismantled. There are several players not good enough or wanting out.
You can't do it in one summer though, and you shouldn't try, its gonna take years, we aren't gonna compete for years, we have to accept that and stop looking for a quick fix.
Whats important is getting the right players in and making sure those who are causing the obvious dressing room attitude issues leave.
If that means we only bring in 2/3 players and lose 6 players. Then thats fine, as long as they are the right who have been brought in, who we can start to build the team around, so the following year we add another 2 or 3 of the right players. and we start to slowey get a proper team that brick by brick gets ready 2 compete in 3 or 4 years.
It isnt about spending big, its about spending well!
I don't think it will make a massive difference in spending if Pogba leaves, personally think the worse thing we could do if Pogba leaves is panic buy a big name replacement.
I don't think it will make a massive difference in spending if Pogba leaves, personally think the worse thing we could do if Pogba leaves is panic buy a big name replacement.
Complacency by manager mostly and players minimally.
Lack of Confidenceto Manager by players later on.
Influential supporting reasons --> Ole's bizarre decision makings and many players usual behaviors of downing tools when they have problems with the manager.
CL/ Manchester United 3-1 PSG
The match that started the complacent effect to the players and especially more imo to the managers.
EPL/ Manchester United 2-0 Arse
Matic back from injury, clearly not fit enough for big games.
Ole decided to go autoMatic, first sign of complacency by manager?
Midfield of Pogba-Matic-Fred never worked.
Finishing is so bad and I got the impression our players are just playing around not serious, first sign of complacency by players?
Manager only used 2 subs. I believe this has negative effect to the team, the first one that started it. We're losing and basically Ole is saying he don't trust the other players left on the bench and trusting the players playing in a messy way not even close to getting a comeback.
FAC/ Manchester United 1-2 Wolves
Herrera back from injury, clearly not match fit.
Ole decided to go with Pogba-Matic-Herrera... so bad, Matic still looking to have rough fitness.
Ole and the coaches just sit on their bums while letting the players be.
The starting tactic continues in the 2nd half and so far clearly not working with our players struggling against Wolves.
Wolves grow in the match and gaining momentum, getting closer and closer.
Manager still let things be.
Wolves open the lock, and only then... Tch embarassing.
Anyway Ole only made changes after Wolves score and more changes after Wolves scored another.
Ole clearly admired Matic for him to last until almost the 90th mins is just bizarre.
Rashford pulled one back late in the dying mins.
EPL/ Manchester United 2-1 Watford
Good response by the players.
Ole insist on Herrera and Matic starting, still not match fit enough, our midfield got ran over.
Thankfully we pulled two goals back.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-2 Wolves
Finally Ole learned. Herrera and Matic rested.
Pogba-Fred-McT worked early on.
Starting tactics also worked with 5 defenders now and WB system to combat Wolves.
But unfortunately Ole lose the tactical game later on as Wolves adapted to ours.
Fred is the only doing the defensive cover with McT instructed to attack up high.
Wolves exposed us and we lose to the better team tactically.
Players getting frustrated and likely losing trust to manager continues here.
CL/ Manchester United 0-1 Barcelona
Ole made the right spot-on tactical and players selections decisions, which I believe restored some players trust and confidence to him.
Rashford and Lukaku are just so bad here, are they even trying?
EPL/ Manchester United 2-1 West Ham
Fair game.
The easiest one we had around this tough schedule.
CL/ Manchester United 0-3 Barcelona
Suicide tactics.
Only Fred to cover defense, with McT instructed to be high up the pitch, with us only having other 4 defenders.. Ole being naive.
From this match and so on, many players I believe just lost trust in Ole and started willingly or not downing their tools. Many of 'em still tried of course.
Our Forwards clearly stopped trying.
Pogba is clearly frustrated.
EPL/ Manchester United 0-4 Everton
Pure ridiculous by Ole, didn't learned his mistakes.
Pogba-Matic-Fred again which time and time gain showed they're so bad together.
Forwards are also embarassing, doubt they're even trying.
Ole dropped Herrera out completely likely because of the PSG rumour and contract issue <-- I believe this has negative effects on the team, manager will drop even the hardworking Herrera for asking better contract and likely agent using PSG to seal the deal. Pogba's probably the one that gets affected the most by this subtle statement by the manager.
Players continue losing their confidence and trust to manager.
EPL/ Manchester United 0-2 City
Skip, clearly the better team win.
Ole decided to dropped McTominay out completely, not even on bench for this is game is bizarre and I don't buy his "McT is not fit" story.
Fair to set-up 5 defenders system.
Fine 1st half but in the 2nd half especially after City score, many players just stopped trying. Subs are also rubbish.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-1 Chelsea
Ole call back Herrera and we see the improvements.
Not enough though, many players just stopped trying at this point. Martial didn't hide his frustrations in this pre-game.
EPL/ Manchester United 1-1 Huddersfield
We're on a long run of bad form.
Many players also clearly downing their tools here.
Overconfidence and well Ole are still giving chances to deadwood players eg. Sanchez is just pure amazing. Trustworthy manager
Yeah so I did a review on the games watching match reports and highlights, trying to find out where it all started...
1. So it's not the players that are being mainly complacency and all. Ole started to make bizarre decisions after the PSG comeback winning, sign of him being complacent.
2. Ole made the midfield mess decisions leading to a drop of services to the forwards. Defense eventually gets affected. Lossof confidence and form.
3. Downing tools. Many Players started to drop their games later on likely because they can't trust this rookie manager continue making those bizarre decisions.
4. And Ole actually did learned some of his mistakes, evidence from his later decisions. But still making many unreasonable decisions.
5. We actually have a clear system under Ole at first, then he changed it multiple times still trying to find one best system considering the circumstances of his fav players getting injuries, Herrera's contract problems, his favorite attacking force drop of forms and the bad forms later on.
Formation
Main favourite: 4-3-3/diamond formation with Pogba-Matic-Herrera and Martial-Lingard-Rashford (this is his favourites, and he tried to get this back but immaturely too rush eg. Matic and Herrera back from injury being rushed clearly not fit. He also stopped this when the Herrera' contract issue started and repalced Herrera with Fred, which spectacularly failed yet Ole insist on Pogba-Matic-Fred to works... should've switch Herrera with Mctominay, better choice. Also he stopped this when Lingard and Martial were injured and had bad forms afterwards.) He continue to rely with formation this later on with different forward combinations but failed.
Vs some teams 5-3-2 or 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 (the formation evolves in different phases atttacking/defending) eg. PSG, Barca, Wolves, City, he'll change it to a more secured/defensive formation for better chance head-to-head.
Vs weaker teams: 4-4-2 which only works once vs West Ham.
That may sounds simple, but Ole actually changes his system a lot in games. From the very start when he took over as caretaker manager, he consistently change it in games.
First clear system, Ole the Caretaker
4-3-3 is his default tactics with false RW, but it'll change when he sub out the front three. Also vs top team eg. Liverpool or Spurs, it'll be diamond with Lingard at #10.
So don't expect Ole to stick with one formation and one system the full 90 mins.
Teamplay
Usually attacking posession but can be sudden counter attacking in big games.
Still actually High Press but later on players downed their tools so you've got a messy team pressing.
Supposed to be short passing but Ole's player selections just are not helping, so later on Young and Shaw are given license to play more long balls.
Maintain fluidity with the front two or three interchange their positions.
Pogba early on focus more on attacking, but later on started to play more holding deep-passer role.
Some players will also be given special roles eg. Dalot and McTominay.
6. When did the mess started?
Popular opinion is the PSG comeback win game that started it all.
I agree but not the players being complacent, it's the rookie manager in a big club --> Ole being complacent, started to make this many naive decisions. Not all of his decisions are bad of course.
For me it's the Barca suicide game (2nd leg) that started it where most players downing their tools intentionally and not intentionally, based from their trust and confidence to the manager's capabilities. Look, I also criticized the players a lot as they deserved it, but let's not ignore they're still human beings. If your driver is driving the squad to the storm or iceberg and if your boss is just clearly lacking in the skills with no signs of learning, how can your players trust you. Naturally or intentionally, that lack of confidence and trust will affects team morale and then resulting in team performance dropping. Some players naturally but unwillingly will dropped their game, and the others intentionally dropped their efforts.
That said, I'm not forgiving most of the players for clearly stopped trying in the latter games since there are still players who still gave it their all despite that, and I think these players are those who are not affected by the whatever the driver/manager's decision makings are and will continue focusing on giving it their all (at least for this season) -- McTominay, Herrera, Lindelof, Fred, Andreas Pereira, Matic, Smalling, Bailly and Jones. I see these players were still playing to how they normally play and of course we know the latter 6 players have limitations and problems.
7. Tough Schedule.
Let's not forget those fixtures, we have..
6 games vs Top Teams
4 games vs decent mid-table teams.
2 games vs weak teams.
For me that West Ham game was funny enough a time I started to doubt things big time. We just got totally outplayed by a weak side in poor form and got lucky that we got two penalties and that the ref helped us.
I think what we did against Barcelona in the second game was not poor. It was just that De gea was totally useless so they had an easy time to score. Once they got the first two goals we kind of gave up. Ole should of course motivate them better to not give up, but yeah I got a feeling that he gave up too.
Maybe I dunno, for me its about getting the right players in. If the ideal long term Herrera replacement isnt available this summer then don't buy one.
We arn't gonna compete next season whatever happens, so we need a change in mentality.
We need to bring in players that are the right players, who have potentially the ability/age/personality to be the right players in a certain position for the next 5 to 10 years. If a player like that isn't available in a certain position then don't settle for a make do player we have enough of them. Just don't buy anyone, play one of the current squad players or give a kid a chance, and wait until we have found the right player for the position, then sign them.
You can't do it in one summer though, and you shouldn't try, its gonna take years, we aren't gonna compete for years, we have to accept that and stop looking for a quick fix.
Whats important is getting the right players in and making sure those who are causing the obvious dressing room attitude issues leave.
If that means we only bring in 2/3 players and lose 6 players. Then thats fine, as long as they are the right who have been brought in, who we can start to build the team around, so the following year we add another 2 or 3 of the right players. and we start to slowey get a proper team that brick by brick gets ready 2 compete in 3 or 4 years.
It isnt about spending big, its about spending well!
i’m starting to become less & less convinced by this logic, “can’t all be done in one summer” - i don’t believe it can ALL be done in one summer but we have been terrible for basically the whole season.
if my job is to improve the squad, & it’s talents, i think it is justifiable that i should have a number of signings ready to go from the start of the transfer window & then should be working on others.
again, i agree it can’t all be done in one [or even 2 windows] but it kind of feels like letting woodward & co. off the hook by allowing the bare minimum. they should have been working on this for months.
anything less than 5 [id even say 6] signings & i’d be unimpressed. we don’t need a team full of ronaldo’s so a number of these transfers should be ‘run of the mill’ - we should be asking for the maximum from this window not the minimum. 6 out; 6 in should be a minimum
i’m starting to become less & less convinced by this logic, “can’t all be done in one summer” - i don’t believe it can ALL be done in one summer but we have been terrible for basically the whole season.
if my job is to improve the squad, & it’s talents, i think it is justifiable that i should have a number of signings ready to go from the start of the transfer window & then should be working on others.
again, i agree it can’t all be done in one [or even 2 windows] but it kind of feels like letting woodward & co. off the hook by allowing the bare minimum. they should have been working on this for months.
anything less than 5 [id even say 6] signings & i’d be unimpressed. we don’t need a team full of ronaldo’s so a number of these transfers should be ‘run of the mill’ - we should be asking for the maximum from this window not the minimum. 6 out; 6 in should be a minimum
Firstly i'd say in no way am I letting Woodward an co off the hook, this mess is their fault! and if they just have another summer along the lines of what I suspect is gonna happen is we get 3 or 4 mediocre signings who come to around £140 mil, and they don't start the obviously needed gutting of the first team and try to get value from our players, when its very clear the value is getting their in most cases stupidly high wages of our books. Then I will be as bigger critic as any one!
But we have to look at the numbers, when you actually go through our squad and count up how many players we need to move on, or want to move or, or have moved on, its around 10. When you just look at players who are leaving because of contract, that 3 alone. Maybe another 3 would be realistic, and they have to be 3 players who to the management are obviously causing a lot of the attitude and culture problems we are seeing at the moment. Which is still going to leave us with a lot of deadwood.
Then bringing in players, look at it this way you want 6 players? well we obviously want a center back, current market prices your looking 60 million. Matic looks like he is slowing down, Hereras gone, so maybe a midfielder? you think we are gonna get a decent replacment for less then 40 million? then we have an obvious creativity issue, filling that void 70 million ( i mean if we went for felix that looks to basicaly be a hundred million? a right winger would 50 million be enough to buy a decent player in this market(people want sancho that's looking to be about 80 mil)? what then a couple of squad players or maybe a right back? even a squad player now is around 20 mil. so lets say 6 players at cheapest your looking £250 million, for decent signings who will actually move us forward.
How much money did united make last year? Well sky reported we made 44 million profit last year, after spending what 70 million last summer, So we spend that about money and we will be losing money, thats not a route we can go down, Plus we have to consider if we do want keep players like Pogba and De Gea, we will have to match them to Sanchez salary, the players who come in are going to want big money, their isn't a bottomless pile of money.
So realistically for me, if we ended this summer and say we made two really positive signings( Unlikely to happen but say De Ligt & Joao felix) who we can start to build our future around, and we got rid a couple of player with the worse attitudes and found away to get Sanchez of the books(even if thats paying him to leave). For me that would be a great summer, we would have stepped forward, we would have had taken a realistic approach to our teams status, built for the future and spent well, that's what we need.
Having said that to be honest at this stage, if you offered me the choice of what I think is likley to happen this summer & making no signings beyond bringing in a Director of football with a clear plan of how to move the team forward who can reshape the footballing structure at the club, i'd take the latter.
I'm sure this has been discussed but I didn't see a thread for it, so forgive me if one already exists.
Before I start I just want to say I am not bashing Ole, I adore the man, I just cannot wrap my head around how things could go from so good to so bad in the blink of an eye. Up until after the PSG game we were absolutely flying, we were playing attacking football, scoring goals and our top players were on song. However ever since that famous night in Paris we have fallen back into a state of misery that has followed us since Sir Alex retired, the football is rubbish, the results are bad and the future that looked so bright only a few months ago now looks as bleak as ever. How is this possible? I didn't expect us to be brilliant all season under Ole, but I certainly didn't expect this collapse either. Have the players stopped playing for Ole? Why play for him in the first place then. Have teams quickly started to figure out how to play against us? Has everyone just stopped caring? My mind is going crazy trying to figure out a reason for this madness.
Because he’s simply not good enough to manage the club.I don’t believe in miracles....I don’t believe in destiny....I believe in track record,experience and quality....Ole hasn’t demonstrated any of these qualities till today in his managerial career.Even the much maligned Moyes was better equipped to managed United,but Ole is woefully inequipped to manage our club.
We had an easy run of games when he came in....Those games allowed our lads to get some confidence back and they played with a certain freedom and verve because they had nothing to lose so there was no pressure on their shoulders.But as soon as push came to shove,and as soon as the initial euphoria faded away,reality kick in again and everything’s gone downhill since then.
Ole will be gone before the end of next season and I won’t blame him at all....It’s Woodward’s fault that he was stupid enough to give the job to someone on the back off 2 good months...
In my opinion he got too close to the players. No manager should call them Rashy or Ash or Pogie or Rom etc. He is the gaffer and he should use their surnames.
He should have dropped Matic and dropped Lingaard and Rashford when they are playing badly. He should not let Rashford take free kicks all the time. He should stop being their friend and be their boss. It is the only way it is going to work if it is going to work.
Yeah so I did a review on the games watching match reports and highlights, trying to find out where it all started...