Van Gaal

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Reading this thread you would nearly forget that LVG played the most horrifically repulsive, boring, insipid, shit football that was ever witnessed at OT. And not because he didn't have the players to do any better, but because that was how he wanted them to play.

Either peoples memories are short or they are the deluded that professed how wonderful the Emperors new clothes were.
No, there's not much praise here for his football.

But a few of us understand the issues around rebuilding a team. Sadly many supporters think its a quick fix. Reality is this, we've had 3 FT managers post Fergie and he's the only one to even try rebuild our squad. He put in plans for a club restructure from youth upwards and they won back to back leagues and we can see the fruits of that now in recent years.

Jose couldn't do it either and if I'm honest I'm not sure Ole can and currently I'm wondering who will actually have the ability to rebuild us.
 

Roboc7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
6,562
Never said he was a lost cause, just that there was some questionable rumors about him at the club.

He's been hit n miss at Palace, I'm unsure if he would still be good enough at a top level myself.

No idea why you are saying they weren't good enough for the bench, they often were. Hence they made their debuts and some played regularly for him during his stay as United manager.

There's a single match in a Cup Final where he opted for experience, What's your point? It's an extremely weak narrative to continually run with.

I mean in the 93-94 season, Alex Ferguson had an FA Cup Final against Chelsea. The only youth player involved in that game was Giggs. He debuted 3 or 4 other players that season but the only one to make Cup Final day was Giggs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FA_Cup_Final#Match_details
They were good enough when there was an injury crisis, when everyone was fit they weren’t even subs hence why I said they weren’t good enough.

Again nothing wrong with that but it’s the truth.
 

Giggzy P

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
646
Location
Number 19
Interesting thread this, with a terrible season we had, this thread gives me a good laugh.
Its amazing how regardless of all evidence, some think lvg did a good job with us.

Van Gaal method of playing youth is not giving youth a chance, its playing everyone hoping one turns out good. Am sorry but surely a coach should be able to pick out players that have potential to make it then give them a chance in the senior team, consistently. Giving a kid 1 or 2 games then nothing after that is not giving then a chance but taking chances.
A clear example of Lvg's youth policy ( i call it madness) was Nick Powell after having played 60 minutes in a reserve mach in over a year, being brought in when needed a goal. If Powell had scored, he would have looked a genius when it was a stupid decision.

There's some much wrong with lvg time with us so to even think he was a success here is shocking.
5 transfer windows, close to 300 million quid spent, and we played some shite football, but he was a success.

I was for Jose's appointment, but he was also shite, only thing the board lent from lvgs time was they got the the timing of Jose's sucking right, lvg should have been gone in December.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
They were good enough when there was an injury crisis, when everyone was fit they weren’t even subs hence why I said they weren’t good enough.

Again nothing wrong with that but it’s the truth.
So because he chose to go for experience in a single game, he had no interest in youth?

He involved 3 young players, 2 of them directly from the YTS set up he felt were ready for that game.

Why would he pick CBJ over Rojo after he spent €20m on the latter? Shaw broke his leg, Rojo was played there as the next best and most logical answer and CBJ the back up. Common sense isn't it?

Varela like wise, was cover to Valencia. Valencia being a senior team member and one of our best players around this time, why would he be dropped for Varela? He was back up.

I could go on, but its just common sense. The young lads were being eased into the set up and got chances when injuries, bans or fatigue caught up with senior players.

That's what youth players are used for, some make and some don't.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

New Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
2,770
Interesting thread this, with a terrible season we had, this thread gives me a good laugh.
Its amazing how regardless of all evidence, some think lvg did a good job with us.

Van Gaal method of playing youth is not giving youth a chance, its playing everyone hoping one turns out good. Am sorry but surely a coach should be able to pick out players that have potential to make it then give them a chance in the senior team, consistently. Giving a kid 1 or 2 games then nothing after that is not giving then a chance but taking chances.
A clear example of Lvg's youth policy ( i call it madness) was Nick Powell after having played 60 minutes in a reserve mach in over a year, being brought in when needed a goal. If Powell had scored, he would have looked a genius when it was a stupid decision.

There's some much wrong with lvg time with us so to even think he was a success here is shocking.
5 transfer windows, close to 300 million quid spent, and we played some shite football, but he was a success.

I was for Jose's appointment, but he was also shite, only thing the board lent from lvgs time was they got the the timing of Jose's sucking right, lvg should have been gone in December.
And this is supposed to be a bad thing. :houllier:

So what? What's wrong with going at youngsters like an escalator and seeing which ones are good and bad?

It's hardly like now anyway when players like Gomes, Chong, Greenwood, Garner who are standing out much more now than someone happened to do when LVG was around.

LVG did this all in one season - his second season and went through the youth system like a filter - continuing with that would have been good to see. He did that and ended up one position lower than the galactico period and people still wonder why some of us talk about him
 

dove

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
7,899
I think LVG was the worst out of Moyes, Jose and him in terms of expectations. I don't think anyone really expected anything from Moyes. With Jose we pretty much got what we thought - a couple cups, decent second season in terms of points and a meltdown in 3rd. I really believed we can get back to winning ways with LVG, we finished 1st season OK and had a good transfer window on paper. It just all went downhill from here.
 

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
40,256
Just because Jose was a failure, doesnt mean we should have kept LVG. LVG stayed on too long as it was.
 

Roboc7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
6,562
So because he chose to go for experience in a single game, he had no interest in youth?

He involved 3 young players, 2 of them directly from the YTS set up he felt were ready for that game.

Why would he pick CBJ over Rojo after he spent €20m on the latter? Shaw broke his leg, Rojo was played there as the next best and most logical answer and CBJ the back up. Common sense isn't it?

Varela like wise, was cover to Valencia. Valencia being a senior team member and one of our best players around this time, why would he be dropped for Varela? He was back up.

I could go on, but its just common sense. The young lads were being eased into the set up and got chances when injuries, bans or fatigue caught up with senior players.

That's what youth players are used for, some make and some don't.
It’s not one game, prior to the injury crisis they didn’t play, when players returned they didn’t play. This is what happened with exception of Rashford.

I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t have played them just that he didn’t unless first team players were missing.

Varela last started for Utd against Liverpool in Europa, Valencia, TFM and Darmian all started at RB after that so he wasn’t actually Valencia’s backup.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
I think LVG was the worst out of Moyes, Jose and him in terms of expectations.
How is that even remotely true? :lol:

Moyes took champions to 7th and hadn't the ability to rebuild the side. No top level players wanted to play for him, Cesc and Kroos as the obvious two who refused to play for United and done a u-turn.

LVG took over a squad completely smashed of confidence and dragged them back to CL football whilst trying to rebuild. The following season he tied with 4th again whilst continuing to rebuild and won us our first trophy post Ferguson.

Jose took over a team in a far, far healthier shape than LVG adopted and that is a fact.

But what happened? Jose dragged us to 6th again and a whopping 24 pts from champions but the cup wins covered this up.

The following year he gathered a respectable points total but still saw our gap to champions a huge 19 pts off.

If anything Jose had the biggest demands and failed the worst. He won a league most recently of all the coaches, his CV was the most successful obviously and he left us in as bad or worse a shape than Moyes did.

Of the 3, only LVG left the team in anything close to a description of health or confidence.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
It’s not one game, prior to the injury crisis they didn’t play, when players returned they didn’t play. This is what happened with exception of Rashford.

I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t have played them just that he didn’t unless first team players were missing.

Varela last started for Utd against Liverpool in Europa, Valencia, TFM and Darmian all started at RB after that so he wasn’t actually Valencia’s backup.
Which isn't true.

In our last league game of the season, 5 days prior to the FA Cup final - CBJ, Lingard, Rashford started with Varela on the bench along with Periera.

In the 2nd last PL game of the season - Rashford, Lingard and Adnan all involved.

In the 3rd to last PL game of the season - Lingard started, CBJ & TFM came off from the bench and also on the bench was Januzaj & McNair.

So even if you look at those last 3 league games and the cup final, YTS players took up 15 spots across the 69 that were available. By no means does this fit a narrative of a manager with no interest in youth and only playing them when his hand is forced with injuries as suggested.
 

Roboc7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
6,562
Which isn't true.

In our last league game of the season, 5 days prior to the FA Cup final - CBJ, Lingard, Rashford started with Varela on the bench along with Periera.

In the 2nd last PL game of the season - Rashford, Lingard and Adnan all involved.

In the 3rd to last PL game of the season - Lingard started, CBJ & TFM came off from the bench and also on the bench was Januzaj & McNair.

So even if you look at those last 3 league games and the cup final, YTS players took up 15 spots across the 69 that were available. By no means does this fit a narrative of a manager with no interest in youth and only playing them when his hand is forced with injuries as suggested.
At last you now agree Varela wasn’t Valencia’s backup, 3rd to 5th choice is more accurate. Not everyone was fit again that’s why players were on bench I’m not disputing they played we know that, it was dependant on injuries. But when players were all fit, eg the cup final likes of Varela, CBJ and TFM were nowhere to be seen.

Essentially the players that were 3rd to 5th choice under LVG were loaned out by Mourinho. Nothing wrong with either approach just facts.
 

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
5,478
While United needed rebuilding and there was an ailing squad there when Van Gaal arrived, it really was just a case of signing 3 top quality players a season. No-one's been a hit, no-one!!
 

Giggzy P

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
646
Location
Number 19
And this is supposed to be a bad thing. :houllier:

So what? What's wrong with going at youngsters like an escalator and seeing which ones are good and bad?

It's hardly like now anyway when players like Gomes, Chong, Greenwood, Garner who are standing out much more now than someone happened to do when LVG was around.

LVG did this all in one season - his second season and went through the youth system like a filter - continuing with that would have been good to see. He did that and ended up one position lower than the galactico period and people still wonder why some of us talk about him
its wrong because not every player is going to make it, so its a manager's job to pick from the academy those which look like could, promoting them to the first team, and actually giving them a chance, a proper chance. What Lvg did here didn't help most of the young lads.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

New Member
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
2,770
its wrong because not every player is going to make it, so its a manager's job to pick from the academy those which look like could, promoting them to the first team, and actually giving them a chance, a proper chance. What Lvg did here didn't help most of the young lads.
I disagree. He was here to build a team for Giggs and that's a fact.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving youth a chance and gametime to see which were good enough.

CBj and TFM were better than McNair and Blackett - that's because the first two kept on producing promising performances whilst the others didn't have any.
 

steve zizou

It's bigger than that, honest!
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
1,364
Location
Back 4
If Zaha was at United now, we'd be bitching about him 24/7.

I remember Schnerdlin looking a great DM for Southampton only for him to shit his pants anytime he put a Utd shirt on.

Enough with the hindsight on player transfers.
 

redcafe_reader

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
330
I think we sack him too early. He fit us much better than Jose. And I don't know why, but I have a feeling that LVG will relish a challenge again Pep and Klopp, even with an inferior squad.
 

sp_107

New Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,367
Location
Yorkshire
He knows football better than many of us and he said few weeks back that OLE didn't really improve us and Ole proved it! I like him as a person but the football he played at UTD was horrible ! I would say out of all 4 managers since SAF, LVG period was the most boring time!
 

izec

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
27,164
Location
Lucilinburhuc
Think he deserves much better from us. I know he was arrogant, ruthless and had his own way of doing things. But he really identified our problems.

DDG - he wanted to sell him and replace him with a ball playing keeper . In reality he was right, DDG is bloody brilliant at shot stopping but very average in distribution and passing.

High pressing and playing out from the back - this was back when people started talking about high pressing and playing out from the back..not many teams were doing it. He brought in blind at CB and made it work ( I slated him for not playing blind in midfield).

Midfield control - how we took control of the game and dominated the opponents. Game at Anfield was fecking brilliant and so many other games. Yes, i understand it was meaningless possession but that was probably due to quality of our players. Could have made it work with better players .

Identifying the talent - he wanted to sign Mane and we called him clueless for chosing mane ahead of Pedro . He was the one who tried Depay in the middle and that's his position now.

Seriously, he got so many things right and how I wish he had stayed and continued the project . While I understand Jose was a better choice that didn't help us in the long run either.

Some of the things we wish now was implemented by him long back. Just shows we need to be patient to implement something .

Anyone else think this way ?
We were on the right track, but the signings he made didnt help. If we had someone helping him there instead of Ed, it could have turned different. He was the most modern manager we had post Fergie and someone we should have kept one or 2 more years and then go for a progressive manager instead of Jose.The football was dire and the recruitement wasnt the best, but he had the same problems other managers had with our squad. Some of these players just dont care and are lazy and resistent to learning. He couldnt change that and failed.
 

bonothom

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
843
I quite liked old big head. Not for his dour football but he was always pretty upbeat even when he was getting hammered by the fans and press. Kinda felt sorry for him when he got booed at Wembley. Mourinho on the other hand was a miserable bastard especially during the final 6 months.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
I posted this elsewhere on an Ole thread and it perfectly sums up our league form in recent times.

In the last 6 seasons we've finished

  • 22pts from Champions
  • 17pts from Champions
  • 15pts from Champions
  • 24pts from Champions
  • 19pts from Champions
  • 29pts from Champions (it will be more tomorrow evening)
Avg of 21pts from Champions post Ferguson

The closest we always came to league titles was under LVG, but I know folks won't want to praise that. Praise of LVG is blasphemy.

I always found it incredible a very large section of our supporters praised Jose and his 81 pt haul. Reality is in many of the preceding seasons, 81 pts was still only good enough for 2nd or 3rd in most cases. The exception being the season Leicester won it with 81pts.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
13,967
I posted this elsewhere on an Ole thread and it perfectly sums up our league form in recent times.

In the last 6 seasons we've finished

  • 22pts from Champions
  • 17pts from Champions
  • 15pts from Champions
  • 24pts from Champions
  • 19pts from Champions
  • 29pts from Champions (it will be more tomorrow evening)
Avg of 21pts from Champions post Ferguson

The closest we always came to league titles was under LVG, but I know folks won't want to praise that. Praise of LVG is blasphemy.

I always found it incredible a very large section of our supporters praised Jose and his 81 pt haul. Reality is in many of the preceding seasons, 81 pts was still only good enough for 2nd or 3rd in most cases. The exception being the season Leicester won it with 81pts.
You're right, we should praise LVG for finishing 5th and 15 points behind Leicester.
 

Snow

Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
33,229
Location
Lousy Smarch weather
You suggest that finishing 15 points off Leicester should be praiseworthy but then proceed to put down the 81 point haul because that would only have beaten Leicester.

We won the league on 82 points in '96 and 75 points in '97. Finished 2nd in '98 where 81 points should have won it and in '99 we won it again and this time on 79 points. A further 2 times did Ferguson win the league on less than 81 points so 5 times in total. I don't why it should be put down to finish 2nd on 81 behind the league record point total. Ferguson wouldn't have won the league that year with United, I don't think anyone would.

Point totals are relative, what matters are the results and performance.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
13,891
LVG supporters are so bloody funny. I think we had very high possesion stats under him so maybe we should praise him being high up in that league too.
 

ThierryHenry14

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
4,042
Supports
Arsenal
You're right, we should praise LVG for finishing 5th and 15 points behind Leicester.
Your chance to play a procession based system like Bayern, Barca and Ajax is gone once you sack LVG. If he can't do it in Man Utd because the board and the fans have no patience, then probably nobody can.

You got what you wish for by sacking him and hired Mourinho. I wish OGS have a successful season next year but only if he can manage fans expectation.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
You're right, we should praise LVG for finishing 5th and 17 points behind Leicester.
You suggest that finishing 15 points off Leicester should be praiseworthy but then proceed to put down the 81 point haul because that would only have beaten Leicester.

We won the league on 82 points in '96 and 75 points in '97. Finished 2nd in '98 where 81 points should have won it and in '99 we won it again and this time on 79 points. A further 2 times did Ferguson win the league on less than 81 points so 5 times in total. I don't why it should be put down to finish 2nd on 81 behind the league record point total. Ferguson wouldn't have won the league that year with United, I don't think anyone would.

Point totals are relative, what matters are the results and performance.
Case and point, jump right on the case of any daring to aim anything close to praise at LVG and you'll soon be told otherwise.

Leicester were worthy champions, they lost a sum total of 3 games in a season which is a hell of an achievement. The table doesn't lie as they say.

Snow, most of those leagues won with 81pts were a long time ago and the standard has improved dramatically in recent times. I mean we are in a season now where 97pts could be only good enough for 2nd.

Your right snow, it is generally considered relative, thing is in Jose's case due to his inability to rebuild us and remain competitive he saw his rival open up a bigger lead than was previously the case so in reality, Jose wasn't even relatively close was he?

He was an extremely distant 2nd best.
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
13,615
Van Gaal brought us unwatchable football, but in light of Moyes and Mourinho looks better and better with the passing of time.

The calamitous mistake was bringing in Moyes, who was nowhere close to being fit for the job. Had the club been properly managed from the top we would have brought in a manager with the experience and mandate to rebuild the squad right then (this no re-signing of Rooney), with the goal climbing back to the top in 2-3 seasons rather than trying to right back to the top with players in decline or who just didn’t have it.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
13,891
Van Gaal brought us unwatchable football, but in light of Moyes and Mourinho looks better and better with the passing of time.

The calamitous mistake was bringing in Moyes, who was nowhere close to being fit for the job. Had the club been properly managed from the top we would have brought in a manager with the experience and mandate to rebuild the squad right then (this no re-signing of Rooney), with the goal climbing back to the top in 2-3 seasons rather than trying to right back to the top with players in decline or who just didn’t have it.
I think LVG did set us back the most though. He pretty much ruined our team. Mourinho did what he normally do which didn't help that much.
 

Snow

Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
33,229
Location
Lousy Smarch weather
Case and point, jump right on the case of any daring to aim anything close to praise at LVG and you'll soon be told otherwise.

Leicester were worthy champions, they lost a sum total of 3 games in a season which is a hell of an achievement. The table doesn't lie as they say.

Snow, most of those leagues won with 81pts were a long time ago and the standard has improved dramatically in recent times. I mean we are in a season now where 97pts could be only good enough for 2nd.

Your right snow, it is generally considered relative, thing is in Jose's case due to his inability to rebuild us and remain competitive he saw his rival open up a bigger lead than was previously the case so in reality, Jose wasn't even relatively close was he?

He was an extremely distant 2nd best.
Not at all case in point, I was pointing out that you simultaneously used the argument to praise one manager and put down another which doesn't make sense.

Leicester still wasn't a team that you should finish 15 points behind. We played poorly that season, the football was bad to watch. How many points we were behind them doesn't matter in that context because we both looked bad and the end result was bad. Last season we looked bad, our defense was very good and the end result was decent. Using the point difference as a barometer for how well you've done is especially misleading considering that this was the best season in the history of a league champion.

In any case we've played poorly since Ferguson overall and had about 1 season of decent results (2 cups is never bad). The cups would be remembered more fondly if: A, we weren't so used to bigger success and B, the football hadn't been so poor for so long.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
I think LVG did set us back the most though. He pretty much ruined our team. Mourinho did what he normally do which didn't help that much.
How did he ruin it? :lol::lol:

He left us joint 4th on points and having won our first post Fergie trophy.

The squad had Romero (still here and I'd have no issue with him playing more often), Rojo (good player when fit), Blind (Jose the feckin idiot), Shaw is a decent player but perhaps squad / back up level, Martial albeit being a lazy s*it has bags of talent and I feel he'll get one last shot next season with Ole, it'll be make or break for him, Rashford who likewise still has time on his side at 21.

Yes there was transfer failures, no manager gets it perfect but compare where we are now after 2.5 seasons of Jose.

De Gea's form has dropped off a cliff, he persisted with Jones / Smalling and excluded his own 2 signings. Matic is finished as his legs are gone, Rom is grossly overweight and nothing short of a disaster at 75m! Bailly is a walking disaster and permacrocked. Fred has struggled thus far and I'm not sure he will step up either, he's hit n miss at best.

Need I even attempt to try say how bad Sanchez was / is?

So that leaves us with Pogba whom everyone hates with a passion pretty much and is expected to perform miracles every 90 mins and Lindelof.

He left us 13pts off 4th place, with the squad in ruins, toxic dressing room, a defence at its absolute worst since the 70s, midfield being over ran cause of well, Fred and Matic not performing and our attack in ruins cause Jose didn't develop Rashford or Martial.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
At the end of his term LVG bored the hell out of everyone. But he tried to develop a philosophy of trying to play football. I think his mistake was to think that the players he had can play football. His style of play needed a quality number 10 who has a good first touch and also vision. We had Rooney at his lowest. We also moved the ball too slowly. None of his teams moved the ball that slowly. I have seen his Ajax side and his Barca and Bayern and they move it much more quickly. But LVG could not change and it was why he was so rigid that he had to go. His players were simply not good enough. Just like now.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
13,891
How did he ruin it? :lol::lol:

He left us joint 4th on points and having won our first post Fergie trophy.

The squad had Romero (still here and I'd have no issue with him playing more often), Rojo (good player when fit), Blind (Jose the feckin idiot), Shaw is a decent player but perhaps squad / back up level, Martial albeit being a lazy s*it has bags of talent and I feel he'll get one last shot next season with Ole, it'll be make or break for him, Rashford who likewise still has time on his side at 21.

Yes there was transfer failures, no manager gets it perfect but compare where we are now after 2.5 seasons of Jose.

De Gea's form has dropped off a cliff, he persisted with Jones / Smalling and excluded his own 2 signings. Matic is finished as his legs are gone, Rom is grossly overweight and nothing short of a disaster at 75m! Bailly is a walking disaster and permacrocked. Fred has struggled thus far and I'm not sure he will step up either, he's hit n miss at best.

Need I even attempt to try say how bad Sanchez was / is?

So that leaves us with Pogba whom everyone hates with a passion pretty much and is expected to perform miracles every 90 mins and Lindelof.

He left us 13pts off 4th place, with the squad in ruins, toxic dressing room, a defence at its absolute worst since the 70s, midfield being over ran cause of well, Fred and Matic not performing and our attack in ruins cause Jose didn't develop Rashford or Martial.
The squad he did build was very average and had declined since Moyes days and every move LVG made just made it weaker. De Gea did play like a GOD for him and gave us 10-20 points extra, but not sure how much credit LVG should have for that apart from maybe having a good coach for goalkeepers. I think Mourinho did improve the squad a bit more and his ideas in the market was better. Although he did go for too many older players.
Overall I think LVG set the squad back, but Mourinho had a mixed effect. The last year for Mourinho was terrible though and he did go into suicide mode which we have seen before. Although he didn't really have time to ruin the squad apart from the Sanchez signing.
The trajectory for both was negative though. I think taking over from Mourinho would be easier than taking over from LVG. That is my main point here. We did see Ole getting results directly using Mourinhos team. With that said I don't think Ole is the guy to improve this team further and we do need to improve our squad a lot.

In terms of long term damage I say LVG ruined us the most then Mourinho and then Moyes. Still hopefully we can do much better in the market and build a team for the future.

I think we are lucky that LVG did fail to reach champions league in his second year. One more year with LVG and our squad could have been fecked to the extreme and been in midtable in my view.
 

Livvie

Executive Manager being kept sane only by her madn
Scout
Joined
Jun 5, 2000
Messages
41,716
So wanting to sell DDG was the right idea? Bearing in mind how he has saved us over the past few years, I'm not sure how that works.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Not at all case in point, I was pointing out that you simultaneously used the argument to praise one manager and put down another which doesn't make sense.
Yes, because of the 2 in question, I feel LVG done a better job overall.

Jose caused complete and utter ruin across the club from top to bottom. Falling out with the board, the players and a large section of the fan base. The dressing room was toxic and and he left us further from 4th than LVG done.

Leicester still wasn't a team that you should finish 15 points behind.
Why aren't they? Again, they were worthy champions and their team was full of talented and hard working players. A few of their players were bought by the traditionally bigger clubs then, from Kante & Drinkwater to Chelsea, Mahrez to City.

We played poorly that season, the football was bad to watch. How many points we were behind them doesn't matter in that context because we both looked bad and the end result was bad. Last season we looked bad, our defense was very good and the end result was decent. Using the point difference as a barometer for how well you've done is especially misleading considering that this was the best season in the history of a league champion.
Of course it matters, the only position that really matters in reality is 1st. There's one trophy and a club of our size should always be pushing towards it and being as close as possible.

The only reason 2nd - 4th matter more recently is cause of the CL spot but it shouldn't be there but for UEFA greed.

In any case we've played poorly since Ferguson overall and had about 1 season of decent results (2 cups is never bad). The cups would be remembered more fondly if: A, we weren't so used to bigger success and B, the football hadn't been so poor for so long.
I'm not saying LVG was an undeniable success, not at all. But he performed better for me than Jose did.

The two cups Jose won was commendable, the league cup was a bit of luck and he played our full strength side throughout and we robbed Saints blind that day, he apologies post match!

As for Ajax in the Europa, it arguably saved his job. He finished 6th and if he had lost that game he'd most likely not of even had the 2nd season.
 
Last edited:

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
5,478
Divisive as it would have been, the correct choice was Mourinho post-Ferguson to restructure, rebuild, stay in contention (you better believe he'd have had that squad put in a better effort). THEN pick someone for the long-term once the post-Gill dust had settled.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
13,967
Case and point, jump right on the case of any daring to aim anything close to praise at LVG and you'll soon be told otherwise.
And mostly rightly so. The guy absolutely ruined us.

We'll have more points this year in a disaster of a season.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
The squad he did build was very average and had declined since Moyes days and every move LVG made just made it weaker. De Gea did play like a GOD for him and gave us 10-20 points extra, but not sure how much credit LVG should have for that apart from maybe having a good coach for goalkeepers. I think Mourinho did improve the squad a bit more and his ideas in the market was better. Although he did go for too many older players.
He gave us Romero, Shaw, Herrera (whom folks are gutted over leaving today), Blind (not his fault Jose is a moron who sold him, his Ajax form shows he is an incredible talent), Martial (still time to prove himself, although its running short) and debuted Rashford (and don't give me crap about luck and what not, he was in his plans).

De Gea actually made more saves under Jose than he did for LVG's United. Wouldn't that suggest we were far more reliant on him than LVG was then? We had a better defence under LVG, Smalling & Blind is still our best CB pairing post Ferguson for me. Shaw's form pre leg break was very good, he started the 2nd season superbly.

Our midfield was the issue in reality, he was stuck with an ageing and under performing Rooney (Thanks to Moyes and his 5 year deal) and Fellaini (Moyes again). He made errors with Morgan & Bastian but I don't recall many complaining when they were signed.

Attack, Martial & Rashford were doing well and looked very promising only for Jose to ruin both of them and stall their development.

Overall I think LVG set the squad back, but Mourinho had a mixed effect. The last year for Mourinho was terrible though and he did go into suicide mode which we have seen before. Although he didn't really have time to ruin the squad apart from the Sanchez signing.
Ah come on now, think back to that FA Cup final win and the form of players around then.

De Gea was in superb form, Valencia was arguably one of the best defensive RB's in the league still, Smalling & Blind were doing very well, Shaw performed pre leg break / Young filled in well at that time.

Our Midfield wasn't much to write about, Herrera was hit n miss at the time as he needed a season to settle as is often the case with many foreign imports. Still, as bad a signing as he was Fellaini often saved the day for LVG (done the same for Jose too then).

Martial & Rashford were looking like 2 seriously talented young kinds in May 2016.

Now list me the players who were top of their game in Dec 2018 when Jose got the bullet? De Gea? Lindelof improved but still well off the mark. Shaw hasn't quite been the same player since that leg break. Pogba & Matic were out of the side more than in it. Rashford & Martial shot of confidence and Rom his big forward signing was utterly dreadful and woefully out of shape.

Aside from all that, LVG had all the players working with the ball. They were far better technically, even if our patience levels were tested like never before. Jose gifted teams possession and sat back and was never a proactive manager. It was so incredibly negative to allow teams over run us and box us in and rely on De Gea to bail us out then hope for a mistake to capitalize on.

I think taking over from Mourinho would be easier than taking over from LVG. That is my main point here. We did see Ole getting results directly using Mourinhos team. With that said I don't think Ole is the guy to improve this team further and we do need to improve our squad a lot.

In terms of long term damage I say LVG ruined us the most then Mourinho and then Moyes. Still hopefully we can do much better in the market and build a team for the future.

I think we are lucky that LVG did fail to reach champions league in his second year. One more year with LVG and our squad could have been fecked to the extreme and been in midtable in my view.
See I think of it completely the opposite.

LVG went into United and completely restructured all the teams from youth up, similar to how Ajax & Bayern operate. Which is something a large section of our fan base have demanded for god knows how long. Our youth teams benefited tremendously, as is often the case with LVG. We won back to back leagues under his tenure here and many of the youth players were buzzing with him as manager.

Think of it this way, Ole & Mike are now rolling out the same ideals LVG was doing already at the club in 2014! He had an intense interest in the youth teams, promoting youth. They are, it seems attempting to follow the Ajax / Bayern model by involving ex players in roles at board / managerial level, from Carrick and Phelan as coaches and Fletch or Rio as DoF.

Weather LVG got season 3 or not, if we went from LVG to Ole I'd be absolutely certain that we'd be far, far, far better for it. There is a clear continuation there of many of the same ideals of investing in youth and club structure.

Basically erasing Jose from the clubs history ideally.
 
Last edited:

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
And mostly rightly so. The guy absolutely ruined us.

We'll have more points this year in a disaster of a season.
And who was the manager most at blame for this disastrous season? :lol:

I'll give you a clue, most of the moron's on here think he done a supposedly better job than LVG ;)