Sounds about right.
Those glory days are beginning to be just a fading memory.
Fantastic while it lasted though eh.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Those glory days are beginning to be just a fading memory.
Fantastic while it lasted though eh.
This is very sadly accurate and it's depressing to see that this is the level of our ambition now.
Rodgers has been with Leicester for about 6 weeks and he already has them playing his style.
There are no excuses for Ole.
Thank you for your arithmetic lesson which by the way I didn’t really need as I have A level Maths.
Anyway the increase from 19 to 32 points was the gap between us and City last season to this.
Not overly difficult to understand I trust.
Yeah we don’t have players that run fast enough and long enough. The only reason why our midfield and defence is all over the place.
have you watched the games? Do you want me to post the video highlights as well? Do you honestly believe our tactical approach and our formation when defending is spot on?
It’s a proper FM post. Stills can be used to highlight absoluty any chance created to show deficiencies - that’s why there’s shots and goals in matches ffs. There’s plenty of sticks to beat Ole with but people come out with pictures and playing reserves that aren’t going to make it? Come on.
And we have to show blind support until things go so bad that we have to sack him anyway.
And that is the difference between someone who knows what they are doing and Ole.
Leicester could push us hard next season.
Good manager and a good hard working squad.
She also said that he is not a leader...
Ready for what exactly? A match against a relegated side where our fate is in the hands of Arsenal dropping points to Burnley? How was McTominay 2 years ago more ready than O'Connor? Couldn't be based on youth matches, yet Mourinho gave McTominay a start.
Doesn't make sense going by the post your replied to, which was talking about closing the gap this season.
Spurs had and arguably as bad as form as we had in the league in the past 2 month, but people are all over poch for a crazy fluke comeback.
People cant see beyond the current moment. Maybe Ole will not succeedd, maybe he will, as we learnt success is not guarnteed noatter who we bring in. Let the man work, he has an ezperienced staff around him, he has the right attitude and for a brief moment on time he also made us fall inlove with United again.
There are 2 things Im certain about.
One is Liverpool finiahing out of the top 4 next season, the second is that everybody will be eating their hats come next christmas
People cant see beyond the current moment. Maybe Ole will not succeedd, maybe he will, as we learnt success is not guarnteed noatter who we bring in. Let the man work, he has an ezperienced staff around him, he has the right attitude and for a brief moment on time he also made us fall inlove with United again.
There are 2 things Im certain about.
One is Liverpool finiahing out of the top 4 next season, the second is that everybody will be eating their hats come next christmas
People keep pointing out lack of experience.
I actually think experience is overrated, either you're good or you're average or you're bad. Look at Zidane, he had no managerial experience. He went from coaching the youth team to winning Champions League 3 times at his first spell as a manager.
I actually think experience is overrated, either you're good or you're average or you're bad. Look at Zidane, he had no managerial experience. He went from coaching the youth team to winning Champions League 3 times at his first spell as a manager.
Good point but there are a lot of other factors involved with us. Big time / Idiot / Selfish (choose one or more) players being the biggest problem. I don't think Rogers would be able to turn this juggernaut around in 6 weeks dude!
I don't disagree with her there. He doesn't strike me as much of a leader either.
I don't remember giving him undue credit for that run.
I've described it as a combination of factors: new manager bounce, relatively weak opposition and high intensity performances.
The former two are simply fortunate and not something he can be given credit for. The last one is a positive, however, if we take his word at face value and conclude that the football we played initially is more in line with his preferences than the brand we've seen most recently.
There's no guarantee that Poch or anyone of that ilk would do any better than Solskjaer with this bunch. We have tried high profile managers and failed previously. Give Ole at least one pre-season/transfer window. You would have to be crazy to be expecting a top 4 finish next season regardless of who is in charge.
The “analysis” is terrible. Straight out of the Football Manager handbook. You can find fault like this in any Man City, Liverpool, Barcelona or Bayern Munich game this season. This is how teams have shots against them and concede goals - because you can’t cover every space all of the time.
You can do the exact same to show “good” defending. In short, it’s a waste of time.
So what exactly are you trying to prove? That our defending is shit? A blind man can see it has been shit for years - that’s why we’ve only won a couple of cups since 2013. Even with the great defensive manager Jose, we were leaking goals. At some point you have to accept the players aren’t good enough to do (or flat out don’t want to do) certain things tactically to achieve results on the pitch. This is why most people are calling for a clear out - not the manager’s head after 6 months because he’s had the exact same players that have failed us for the last 6 years.
Yeh great logic. And from the from day 1 we have 0 point difference., how close we were from winning the league.
I think we need to back him. Let him get rid of the players he doesnt want, and replace them So if we have 8 out, we need atleast 8 in.
Let him make this squad his own, with players he wants. Cos right now, its a bad mix of players from SAFs era, Moyes' Era, Van Gaal's area and Mourinho's. So, let him build this squad for his own.
City did this with Pep after his first season. He saw what wasn't good enough, and got rid. Players like Nasri, Clichy, who were key players in their first title win, deemed not good enough for Pep and were gone. So, give Ole that chance.
Then, if its still not working, we have to make a change, for better or worse, but right now they have to back him fully 100%
Let him make this squad his own, with players he wants. Cos right now, its a bad mix of players from SAFs era, Moyes' Era, Van Gaal's area and Mourinho's. So, let him build this squad for his own.
City did this with Pep after his first season. He saw what wasn't good enough, and got rid. Players like Nasri, Clichy, who were key players in their first title win, deemed not good enough for Pep and were gone. So, give Ole that chance.
Then, if its still not working, we have to make a change, for better or worse, but right now they have to back him fully 100%
I honestly don't know anymore. I thought giving him the full time job was the correct decision, and I just don't understand how could things go downhill like this. I don't like his comments about being realistic, not because he's wrong, but because this should never be the attitude of a big club, we play every game to win, and if we aren't good enough we try to get better. He doesn't need to say that we'll be fighting on every front, but he also doesn't need to say that it can't be done and that we're catching up with top four clubs. We hammered Moyes for saying shit like that.
All in all I think giving him the job was the wrong decision. I'm not optimistic about next season simply because now there're huge question marks over him, and players these days lose confidence easily in their managers.
All in all I think giving him the job was the wrong decision. I'm not optimistic about next season simply because now there're huge question marks over him, and players these days lose confidence easily in their managers.
Exactly. Just take a video of goals conceded and you will have bad shape, tactics.
Not sure why people keep saying that
.Yep. Tis' my observation also...he seems in awe of the task, quotes soundbites rather than defining his own prescence on the club.
Pep, Klopp... Rafa... Sean Dyche... Poch... Warnock... even Emery... Zidane, Allegri... Ancelloti..remember the impact Conte' had at Chelsea.
These are leaders...managers... their players respect them... and that is beyond simply saying someone is a 'great lad' '...we have to get fitter...' etc.... such statements are absolutely and intentionally ambiguous and say nothing at all.
Ole doesn't strike me as a guy with the natural confidence and vision to take this forward. We're not a flaming charity and the Ole love-in will only take him so far. And so it should.
CORRECT!
Think we are now seeing that those players were carried along by great players under SAF. Take away those great players and it highlights the limitations of the players who were left. The only reason they are still here is some deluded idea that they are winners. Keeping them is one of the reasons we are now where we are.Not sure why people keep saying that
I won't like to be in place of people who are waiting so much for pre season and think fitness is the problem. They are setting themselves up for a major disappointment.
So what is terrible from the analysis lads?
We don't give awful amount of space between the lines? We don't often have someone playing on side 1 or even 2 forwards? We have spot on marking instructions? We always keep our backline in shape? We aren't terrible in transition or we track and pass opposition forwards pretty well?
Or you just decided that a long piece on our organizational structure, that someone took his time to actually watch in details how we defend and put it together isn't worthy of your time and label it crap?
Or just because other teams make defensive errors we should overlook ours, sit down, hold hands and sing Kumbaya with hope everything will be fine tomorrow?
Under Jose last two years we conceded 28 and 29 in the league. This season he was rejected a CB, along with Ole's efforts we conceded 54 in the league - only West ham in the top ten conceded more. But let that not blind you.
Shouldnt have given him a permanent job to begin with if you ask me. You have though, so you should back him.
Agree. If there is not a major overhaul, we will just have a team of fit, but still average players. It won't make Smalling capable of passing the ball out from the back, it won't stop Jones injuring himself, it won't knock ten years of Ashley Young and all of a sudden he can bend it like Beckham.
We need to be fitter, but we also need talented technical players to be where we should be. Otherwise we will just be plucky. It's difficult to go there as they will give you a hard game type of team, like Bournemouth or Watford.
Could people just stop using these.
Pep won 6 league titles in Spain and Germany. 2 CL and multiple other cups. Also inherited a proper structure (La Masia) to develop his ideas, transitioned and learned his style from none other than Cruyff and always used his blueprint approach anywhere - Spain, Germany, England.
Ole has won the Noggie league 10 years ago. Then relegated Cardiff and never won the Norwegian league in his second stint. But yes, let's compare him to Pep and Klopp.
It's the hope that kills for some here.
Don't bother with them. Your analysis is great. We need more of these posts here.
As a purveyor of Caf Body Language™ myself, I admit to having doubts about its legitimacy. I don't think we can justifiably say that Ole 'isn't a leader' just because he has a 'quiet' personality.
Good post. Very thorough. Please ignore the Luddites. It's too easy to label something shit and not actually spend the time understanding analysing what the correct solution to the problem will be, instead just looking for the silver bullet.@SteveW @shamans
what is your take on these, would love to hear your opinion on our shape in those examples. Again blamed on fitness or?
Spaces between the lines
Anyone who has ever coached or played football knows that you need to protect the space between your defensive and midfield lines. This is especially true against teams like Barcelona. In the image below, I’ve highlighted United’s defensive setup just before Coutinho made it 3-0. Lionel Messi is on the ball in midfield and plays a sweeping pass out to Jordi Alba. He could, though, just as easily have threaded it into Coutinho or Luis Suárez who are positioned between United’s defence and midfield. The central midfield duo of Fred and McTominay both push towards the ball while the defence drops, creating that huge space between the lines.
Alba has just played the ball back to Coutinho (yellow). Lindelöf, Smalling and Jones have all dropped while left-back Ashley Young has been to slow to retreat. The same goes for Fred in midfield. This means Barca are actually 3 vs 3 against United’s remaining defenders just outside the penalty area after just two passes from their own half. Young’s positional weakness is highlighted here as he should have dropped alongside his fellow defenders and been somewhere around where I’ve put the empty white circle. Then United would have been 4 vs 3 and could have let Smalling step out to Coutinho. Now they can’t and Coutinho has enough time to score beautifully.
This is just one example but United consistently give up space between the lines and allow teams time on the ball just outside their own penalty area. This is due to the poorly synchronised collective movements out of possession, and the individual mistakes in terms of basic positioning made by so many of their defenders and central midfielders.
Horrible positioning around the box
However, what perhaps is most startling for a team at United’s level is the horrible positioning around their penalty area. What I’ll look at now is truly amateur stuff. It seems laughable when you remember this team defended so well positionally as a collective at home against Liverpool and away to Chelsea and PSG.
Let’s start with a situation from the Manchester derby last week. Raheem Sterling has the ball and is up against Young. You can see United’s back-five in pretty good positions at this point.
In the image below, Sterling has now started to drive infield. Young (white) should just pass him onto Pereira (yellow) at this point. United are still in good positions to defend at this point with seven players behind the ball.
As you see below, Pereira has been easily beaten. Young has continued to follow Sterling’s run inside and now looks to put pressure on the winger. Please have a look at United’s back-five. It’s possible that you’ve never seen a back-five in these positions. Look at Smalling in particular who has dropped four yards deeper than his fellow centre-backs and plays Agüero and Silva onside.
As Sterling plays the ball to Gündogan, the German has a great chance to play a one-touch pass to David Silva who is onside all alone just in front of goal due to Smalling’s ridiculous positioning. United were lucky that he didn’t see this pass. If he had, Silva and Agüero would be 2 vs 1 against Smalling just outside the six-yard box. United have nine players here in the central area of the pitch but are poorly positioned as a collective.
United’s defensive players are consistently guilty of chasing the ball rather than keeping their positions around the box. The game against Watford provided plenty of examples of this. The image below highlights Roberto Pereyra as he has just received the ball. Young (white) is immediately attracted to the Argentinian. Smalling (blue) decides to pick up the run from Deulofeu into space behind Young.
Preferably, Young would have stayed in position, allowed Smalling to step up and picked up the run of Deulofeu. As it was, they changed positions. As the image below shows, this is still no issue. Smalling (yellow) provides pressure on the ball while Young (white) covers in as a centre-back.
This is where the ridiculousness kicks in again. The ball is played inside to Pereyra (blue) again. Smalling is still wide right having pressed Deulofeu. Young steps up to Pereyra. Nemanja Matić (black), United’s defensive midfielder, has now decided to leave his position and move very deep alongside Jones. When Will Hughes makes a run into this vacated space centrally, United’s left-back Luke Shaw (yellow) makes an unexplainable decision. He leaves his position (empty yellow circle) to mark Hughes. As Abdoulaye Doucouré makes a run into this space, Paul Pogba (white) is forced to go with him. So, rather than Shaw staying in his position and Pogba in his, United now have Shaw in central midfield and Pogba at left-back.
The ball is transferred to Deulofeu who cuts inside. As you see below, United have now a situational back-six. It reads, from right to left, Smalling-Young-Matić-Shaw-Jones-Pogba. With Herrera pressing Deulofeu, United have NO ONE defending the space outside the box. This is spectacularly unorganised at a level I’ve rarely seen at any level.
Luke Shaw has impressed with his individual defending in many games. His positional sense, however, leaves a lot to be desired. The image below highlights this perfectly well. For some reason, he has decided to mark Hughes four yards behind the rest of his teammates. As Jones, Young and Smalling have all changed positions in this situation, United are already disorganised. Shaw’s position means United have no cover on their left. Shaw should be somewhere around where I’ve put the black circle. Now, United have no player defending the left half of their penalty area and Watford create a chance from which Janmaat should have done better.
Finally, United also showcased these positional issues against West Ham. The image below shows the build-up for West Ham’s goal. At first, United’s defenders are in decent positions. Smalling (white) provides pressure on the ball while the other three provide cover behind him. Preferably, I’d have liked Jones a bit deeper, in the black circle, but it’s still a decent setup.
What then happens is symptomatic for United’s structural positional issues around their own box. As you see below, Smalling (white) now provides cover for Dalot as Lanzini has received the ball on West Ham’s left. This job should be done by Fred or Mata. Smalling, as the ball-near centre-back, should move back into the position highlighted to defend the first-post area. This would allow Jones to defend the middle of the goal and Rojo the back-post area. Mata and Pogba are too lazy to get back into the correct positions. This leaves United defending the cross 2 vs 2 when they should always have a numerical advantage in their own box. As it happens, Rojo’s individual defending is perhaps even worse than the collective as he allows Anderson to get to the cross first despite spending eight seconds looking straight at the Brazilian.
Man-orientated defending causing issues
When United enjoyed a good run and defended really well, they did so with an organised positional approach where each player kept their position rather than marking the closest opponent. Recently, however, the old Mourinho habits of chasing the ball and opponents have crept back into the players with plenty of them now making consistently poor decisions when defending. Let’s have a look at Manchester City’s second goal in the derby as an example.
In the image below we can see how Sterling skips past Fred with the Brazilian needlessly diving in rather than looking to delay Sterling’s run. Even worse, though, is the action of Lingard. He happens to be in a defensive midfield position and could easily have stopped or at least delayed Sterling by moving into the highlighted direction. What he does, however, is to stop and allow Sterling to run past him.
As Sterling now drives towards United’s back-three (as highlighted below), United’s three centre-backs are in really good positions. Despite City attacking 4 vs 3, this doesn’t look all that dangerous at this point. Amazingly, one run (Agüero’s) causes havoc for United. It’s not even a tough run to defend against, Darmian should pass Agüero on to Smalling who can just drop and block the potential pass.
In the image below we see the scene that has been doing the rounds on social media with United’s defenders in a straight vertical line. Instead of Darmian passing Agüero on to Smalling, the Italian followed the run as a man-orientated defender should. This leads to the open passing lane from Sterling to Sané. Had Darmian passed Agüero on, he could have prevented that pass from ever being made by standing in the highlighted space (yellow circle). Now, Sané is allowed a free run at goal.
On other occasions, United have struggled not because of their players following runners, but by opting not too. The below image highlights a situation against Watford. You would think United have this situation under control. There are four United players up against four Watford players. Let’s see what happens in the next image.
Three seconds later, Watford have exchanged a few passes and Hughes has made the highlighted run. Look at the three United players! Pogba, who marks Hughes in the image above, is pointing to Hughes, probably urging someone to mark him when in fact that’s his job. Kiko plays the pass into Hughes and Watford easily get into the penalty area.
I agree. Our previous 2 appointments were two of the most experienced managers in the world, yet both of them ended up being sacked.
The thing that worries me the most about Ole is the things he is currently saying. Claiming we will be nowhere near City and Liverpool next year as the gaps too big, Klopp just made up a 20 plus point gap.
Going to be a big summer for Ole and I am not optimistic, hope I am proved wrong.
Going to be a big summer for Ole and I am not optimistic, hope I am proved wrong.
Definately not mate, but I’d expect any manager to be showing signs of implementing their system after six weeks. We haven’t had that at all with Ole and he’s been here six months.
Goals conceded in the last 7 seasons:
43 under SAF
43
37
35
29
28
29 in 17 under Jose and 25 in 21 under Ole
Granted our defenders aren't exactly the best but this season the defending has been calamitous. When you concede goals from so many individual errors, you have to start questioning the set up and management. I'd wager we've conceded the fewest goals of the top teams since SAF retired up until this season.
You missed the first 6 weeks of his time here then?
This exactly, half of the Cardiff and Huddersfield squad will walk into ours.You can't expect Ole to beat a team like Huddersfield and Cardiff with the strength in depth they have.
Why go away from it? Why not use your entire squad including young players? Would Pep or Klopp be pragmatic over it? Why didn't he go back to that style when it's been obvious what we're doing now isn't working?
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