Paul Pogba is not lazy

StrettyEnder07

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He's not lazy haha who the hell wrote this!

Have a look at Cardiff second goal yesterday and tell me if he ain't a lazy fecking shite!

Can't be bothered to track his man, no doubt though we will "buy another 3 players who can then unlock Paul Pogba", do me a favour!
 

Vanrouge

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Someone who clearly gets it!

The state of our fanbase lapping up narratives driven by people who have no interest in united succeeding but only in them remaining revelant in terms of copy is startling.

We have people getting mad Herrera didn’t get a start this weekend, whilst Young is still a first choice fullback but Pogba is the problem apparently.

We’re about to sell our best player for a relatively small profit & people some how think this is a good idea!
Agree with this.
 

artursk

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This season, Paul Pogba ranks 1st for United in:

goals/xGoals
assists/xAssists
goal-involvements
xGChain
chances cheated
dribbles
touches
passing chains
progressive passes
through balls
duels won
 

Pogue Mahone

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I've witnessed fans at OT turning on Zlatan in the middle of a ridiculous goal scoring season for us. They turned on Felliani, who tried harder than pretty much anyone in the squad."We" actually booed fecking Nani off the pitch for god sakes. Even Ryan Giggs didn't escape it, booed during a semi-final that lad. Ashley Young being substituted was once greeted with a big roar. Don't try making out we've a lovely bunch of fans, we've some of the most negative feckers I've come across anywhere when things aren't going great.

Fellaini and Pogba couldn't be more different, but they are certainly both scapegoated.
As the most high profile signing of Moyes and Mourinho they were always at high risk of being scapegoated. In a way, they each ended up epitomising the inadequacy of the manager that signed them. Throw in Fellaini’s limited technical ability and Pogba’s limited workrate then it stands to reason they’ll attract more criticism than most.

I’m certainly not saying our fans are perfect. Just explaining why it’s obvious that Pogba ended up being heavily criticised by disgruntled fans. For reasons that have nothing to do with his ethnicity or nationality.
 
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As the most high profile signing of Moyes and Mourinho they were always at high risk of being scapegoated. In a way, they each ended up epitomising the inadequacy of the manager that signed them. Throw in Fellaini’s limited technical ability and Pogba’s limited workrate then it stands to reason they’ll attract more criticism than most.

I’m certainly not saying our fans are perfect. Just explaining why it’s obvious that Pogba ended up being heavily criticised by disgruntled fans. For reasons that have nothing to do with his ethnicity or nationality.
They have absolutely nothing to do with his ethnicity or nationality, you are absolutely right there.

Pogba gets picked on because he's our star player and record signing, they expect/expected him to take us back to the top and it's unforgivable that we're not. As I say, I saw some awful abuse hurled at Zlatan during his only full season here, people expect the big players to take us to the top, simple as. In that sense we're absolutely no better than Madrid, well, I say that but they'll slag off big buys even whilst winning Champions Leagues the spoiled sods.
 

artursk

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Fan fact for you people who keep talking about Herrera being hard working and Pogba being lazy:
Pogba runs 1.5 km more per game than Herrera. ;)
 

VeevaVee

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He just has a languid style similar to Berbatov in his time here.

And we will look back when he leaves and miss him here, much like we do Berba now who himself got criticism during his time here.
I'm not sure about that. People like Berbatov because they remember how silky he was at bringing the ball down and that turn. Most also remember he was a frustrating and ultimately pretty useless player in a high effort system, but enjoy remembering the good stuff.
What would they reminisce about with Pogba?
 

Snow

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This is going to be unpopular but I was having a look at stats and he runs a lot more than many of our players, and even more than some rival players in the same position. Call him what you like but lazy shouldn't be it.

Paul Pogba ran an average of 9.96km per match this season.

Compare that to:
Herrera 8.3km
Henderson 8.02km
Kante 10.94km
Maddison 9.34km
Ramsey 6.42km
Jorginho 10.98km
David Silva 9.19km
KdB 6.97km
Son 7.2km
Eriksen 10.41km
Martial 5.95km

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

Look under the matches tab.
Like others have said you need to divide my the minutes played, not the games played. Being below 10km per match would be bad, thankfully Pogba is at least covering 10.4km per match.

Other midfielders at United (km):
  • Fred 11.7
  • Pereira 12.0
  • Herrera 11.7
  • Matic 11.5
  • McTominay 11.8
  • Mata 11.9
  • Lingard 11.6
So Pogba on average runs 1.5km less than other midfielders in the squad.
 

izzydiggler

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I’m not really convinced by these type of stats...I’d prefer a player conserves energy, rather than headless chicken running to appease fans etc.

But Pogba’s ‘effort’ for Cardiff’s second yesterday was disgraceful. Switching off and allowing a runner is bad enough but then he doesn’t bother even moving. Nothing to do with his languid style or that he’s jogging or whatever, he literally stands there and doesn’t even try. How anybody could watch that and defend him is mind-boggling.
 

StrettyEnder07

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Fan fact for you people who keep talking about Herrera being hard working and Pogba being lazy:
Pogba runs 1.5 km more per game than Herrera. ;)
Would a lot of that being Pogba covers more areas of the pitch going forward, whereas Herrera has his section on the pitch where he mainly works, how much ground you cover over the pitch does not necessarily mean anything work rate wise.

Anyone saying that Pogba works harder than Herrera needs their head testing.
 
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Fan fact for you people who keep talking about Herrera being hard working and Pogba being lazy:
Pogba runs 1.5 km more per game than Herrera. ;)
Pogba is much more up and down than Herrera so Herrera will always look busier.

I'm absolutely fine with Pogba's workrate, he busts a gut plenty of times per match and does his share of defensive work. Sometimes he's a massive culprit of trying to do too much because his teammates are so poor.
That said, stuff like the second goal yesterday is unacceptable in any side, even if you're asbolutely spent. Whether he stays here or ends up in Spain, that's something he has to work on because you can't always stop and rely on the people behind you to do a good job.
 

StrettyEnder07

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I’m not really convinced by these type of stats...I’d prefer a player conserves energy, rather than headless chicken running to appease fans etc.

But Pogba’s ‘effort’ for Cardiff’s second yesterday was disgraceful. Switching off and allowing a runner is bad enough but then he doesn’t bother even moving. Nothing to do with his languid style or that he’s jogging or whatever, he literally stands there and doesn’t even try. How anybody could watch that and defend him is mind-boggling.
THIS - Absolutely bang on
 

Chesterlestreet

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I've witnessed fans at OT turning on Zlatan in the middle of a ridiculous goal scoring season for us. They turned on Felliani, who tried harder than pretty much anyone in the squad."We" actually booed fecking Nani off the pitch for god sakes. Even Ryan Giggs didn't escape it, booed during a semi-final that lad. Ashley Young being substituted was once greeted with a big roar. Don't try making out we've a lovely bunch of fans, we've some of the most negative feckers I've come across anywhere when things aren't going great.

Fellaini and Pogba couldn't be more different, but they are certainly both scapegoated.
Nani was booed (by a significant number of fans) because he was perceived not to be that arsed. He may have been booed by people who simply didn't like him as well, that will happen at any ground, but rarely in numbers.

Anyway, let's say the OT crowd are savage bastards in general, then - it makes for an even poorer argument for those who seem to push a story here about Pogba being singled out in an unprecedented fashion.
 

Patrick08

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Lukaku is a world class striker as well and holds the ball really well.

Well
 

artursk

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Like others have said you need to divide my the minutes played, not the games played. Being below 10km per match would be bad, thankfully Pogba is at least covering 10.4km per match.

Other midfielders at United (km):
  • Fred 11.7
  • Pereira 12.0
  • Herrera 11.7
  • Matic 11.5
  • McTominay 11.8
  • Mata 11.9
  • Lingard 11.6
So Pogba on average runs 1.5km less than other midfielders in the squad.
Sorry, your stats are wrong.

The actual figures are:

Matic: 11.16 km
Pogba: 9.96 km
Herrera: 8.30 km
Fred: 7.99 km
Lingard: 7.99 km
Mata: 7.77 km
McTominay: 7.03 km
Pereira: 5.27 km

Check yourself at www.premierleague.com
 

Siorac

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Or how about Louis Saha? As well as ticking the black/French boxes, if ever there was a player that fans could have a gripe with it was Louis and his never-ending supply of sick notes.

But no, he never got even a hint of grief from the stands. Because, guess what, it’s not hard to win United fans over. Providing you’re willing to play football as though you actually give a shit, in every game you play. No exceptions. Break that part of the deal and sure, fans will get on your back. Which seems reasonable to me.
Saha got plenty of stick for being mentally weak though. When he missed that penalty at Celtic Park in 2006, for example: it was seen as proof of his frailty for many. And his never-ending injuries were something of a running joke after a while.

We remember him fondly because he was a small part of a very successful era, where other players played the most important roles. If he were to perform similarly - and had the same injury record - in this current, mostly shite team, he would definitely be considered "deadwood" that we must cut.

And of course he wasn't a world record signing, expected to be star of the team. That's a pretty massive difference, too.
 

JPRouve

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Sorry, your stats are wrong.

The actual figures are:

Matic: 11.16 km
Pogba: 9.96 km
Herrera: 8.30 km
Fred: 7.99 km
Lingard: 7.99 km
Mata: 7.77 km
McTominay: 7.03 km
Pereira: 5.27 km

Check yourself at www.premierleague.com
Those stats aren't per 90, which means that they are highly flawed.

Edit: By the way, in terms of work rate per 90 is also a flawed statistic because the more minutes you play the more likely your performances will drop within the game. Players that leave the field after 60 minutes or only play 30 minutes should have an higher average per 90.
 

Rolaholic

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This season, Paul Pogba ranks 1st for United in:

goals/xGoals
assists/xAssists
goal-involvements
xGChain
chances cheated
dribbles
touches
passing chains
progressive passes
through balls
duels won
Yet morons will claim that we'll be much better off without our only creative player
 

The Purley King

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Except in this case it's abundantly clear that the stats and 'agenda' (in this case I'm taking the word to mean 'being able to describe what you are seeing on the pitch with your eyes') do fit together. The only possible way you can use the stats to exonerate Pogba's work rate is by a partial read of them.

Let's get the evidence together in one place, shall we:

1. The stats in the OP are per game stats, not per 90 minute stats. Pogba mostly plays the full games, so this favours him over players who don't play the full games (the flip side is it looks worse for player like, say, Martial who is lazy but not that lazy)

As @Ajaxsuarez correctly points out:



To do some of the other ones, David Silva runs 11.3km per 90, De Bruyne ran 12.23 per 90 (perhaps helped by his small sample size), Ramsey comes out at 12.1km.

In fact, the only people I've additionally checked who are in Pogba's ballpark are

Ozil who ran 10.5 and Maddison who ran 10.62. I don't know what Leicester fans make of Maddison, but I do know Ozil is regularly criticised for not working hard enough.

2. He runs less than any player in our midfield, and runs less than players with similar builds

As Classical Mechanic demonstrated Pogba runs over a kilometre less than our other midfielders, and runs less than players of comparable build




3. Pogba worked the least hard out of anyone in our Champions League campaign



4. Pogba spends the most time walking in the league (or had in April)



Conclusions:

Pogba covers the least distance per 90 of any midfielder at the club. Pogba covers less distance than players with comparable builds, and players who are primarily tasked with being the creative outlets for their team. The only player I can find who has comparable numbers to Pogba are players also criticised for laziness. Pogba spends more time walking than any other midfielder in the Premier League.

If we add all that up I would say it is abundantly, perhaps irrefutably clear, that Pogba is not a hard working player. People criticise Pogba for being lazy because they are correctly identifying that he is not working as hard as his teammates.

With that in mind, the discussion for me should not be whether or not Pogba is lazy, but whether or not his work ethic can be accommodated, whether his positives outweigh his negatives, and whether a successful Premier League midfield '3' can accommodate a player like him in it.
Excellent post, thanks for putting that all together - should be mandatory reading for anyone posting in this thread.
 

StrettyEnder07

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Yet morons will claim that we'll be much better off without our only creative player
Give me 130m for Pogba and spend that on a balanced midfield 3 who work well and cover all bases:

Neves/Rice/Fernandes or Tielemens

Think we would be a better team for it, given we might not have the Pogba show and finish 6th, but I am sure would could this sensational side close!

Christ could you imagine the club being bigger than Paul Pogba, what a thought that is.
 

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I think the only thing I really learned from looking at the distance covered stats was how much further central midfielders run than anyone else on the pitch (I think I had assumed that fullbacks probably racked up the greatest distances).

Also, in the Champions League, Mata is basically the Duracell bunny - 12.7km per 90 minutes.

Brozovic, Vecino, Eriksen, Hamsik, Milner, Dele Alli, Pjanic, Koke really cover some ground, too (all around 12km+).
 

Di Maria's angel

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No fecking shit that the whole club has problems sherlock. Take that to the Ole thread or the Woodward thread or the Glazers thread where you can rage about it there. This is the Pogba isn’t lazy thread where posters either agree or make counterpoints with examples. I say he’s lazy. One km ran statistic doesn’t change shit about it.
Then why the feck did you reply to me?
 

The Purley King

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For the percentage running, walking etc stats, it is worth bearing in mind that the ball is only in play for between 53 and 59 minutes of the total 90. Figures from 2017 here (https://talksport.com/football/3159...emier-league-side-201718-season-171127263506/). So 33%-40% of the time I would not expect anyone to be running about too much. Granted there is running up/back for corners and goal kicks etc, but unlikely you are going to be sprinting when the ball is out of play.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Those sorts of errors stem from the club as a whole, which allowed bad habits to become the norm. They are a reflection of everything.

Like signing the inspiration for your username, for example, lesson was never learnt, good talent but extremely weak minded. These types of players populate the squad. As much you or anyone want to put some blame on Ole, no manager is going to make this squad of players fight for 38-60 games flatout. Yes the board and structure needs to be gutted, but first and foremost so does the squad
And, as I said earlier, he should be the last name on the list. It's been proven time and time again that a lot of success is a direct result of Pogba being involved. It's no surprise the moment he stopped scoring and assisting, we stopped winning. Yet, a large proportion of Redcafe wants to get rid of our most productive (this season) and influential player.

I have my qualms with Pogba but it's ridiculous how much people go back and forth on him.

Also, the username wasn't my doing.
 

bond19821982

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I am least bothered about his running stats if he produces another season with same output. He is not our problem. Period.
 

Pogue Mahone

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For the percentage running, walking etc stats, it is worth bearing in mind that the ball is only in play for between 53 and 59 minutes of the total 90. Figures from 2017 here (https://talksport.com/football/3159...emier-league-side-201718-season-171127263506/). So 33%-40% of the time I would not expect anyone to be running about too much. Granted there is running up/back for corners and goal kicks etc, but unlikely you are going to be sprinting when the ball is out of play.
Dunno about sprinting but I could think of plenty of reasons for players to need to run with the ball out of play.

In fact, the very idea that it's ok to stand still when the ball out of play is the sort of half-arsed defensive effort that saw Barcelona concede the goal that knocked them out of the Champion's League.
 

StrettyEnder07

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Everyone is throwing his stats around here, runs, goals, assists, through balls, chances created etc.

I would love to know what his stats are re goals conceded or chances created against us that he was directly involved in, I have a feeling that might be extremely high.

I think he will still be at the club next year, Madrid need a slap if they spend 130m+ on him IMO.

If he stays he stays, if he goes then see you later, not overly arsed either way but if we were offered 130m, I would take that and run.
 

JPRouve

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For the percentage running, walking etc stats, it is worth bearing in mind that the ball is only in play for between 53 and 59 minutes of the total 90. Figures from 2017 here (https://talksport.com/football/3159...emier-league-side-201718-season-171127263506/). So 33%-40% of the time I would not expect anyone to be running about too much. Granted there is running up/back for corners and goal kicks etc, but unlikely you are going to be sprinting when the ball is out of play.
An other thing is that in general there is something strange about Sky sports new sprint stats, they have basically recorded 4 times fewer than last year. At the top Dele Alli was at +2600 sprints last season and Chilwell was at 609 last march.
Otherwise on average players are apparently supposed to walk 40% of the time and standing 20% of it.
 

RedRonaldo

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This season, Paul Pogba ranks 1st for United in:

goals/xGoals
assists/xAssists
goal-involvements
xGChain
chances cheated
dribbles
touches
passing chains
progressive passes
through balls
duels won
Depressing isn't it. Our best/most creative player is also the fans no.1 most hated/unwanted player.
 

starman

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And, as I said earlier, he should be the last name on the list. It's been proven time and time again that a lot of success is a direct result of Pogba being involved. It's no surprise the moment he stopped scoring and assisting, we stopped winning. Yet, a large proportion of Redcafe wants to get rid of our most productive (this season) and influential player.

I have my qualms with Pogba but it's ridiculous how much people go back and forth on him.

Also, the username wasn't my doing.
No, its no surprise Herrera gets installed as a first team player, the team is more fluid and he benefits as a result and starts getting goals, same goes when Herrera got injured, it co insides with the drop the off.
Go back to August to December and Pogba was a passenger. The fact he is in team of the year is laughable.

Pogba is a highly talented player, but he's a luxury for the team, so all depends if that luxury is worth it...
Also none us know what his attitude off the pitch is like but its been more then hinted by people in the know (Jose etc) its not 100% focused on the team. If this is true, these are the weak minded players that the club need to get rid off, and this is coming from someone who thinks if every part of his game came together he would not only be the best midfielder in the world but up there with some of the best ever.
 
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StrettyEnder07

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This season, Paul Pogba ranks 1st for United in:

goals/xGoals
assists/xAssists
goal-involvements
xGChain
chances cheated
dribbles
touches
passing chains
progressive passes
through balls
duels won
Let's not forget who he is up against, he has played every minute he has been available and is up against Mata who rarely plays, Rashford who shoots whenever he gets the ball, Lingard who has 16 assists in his career and one in 2019, Sanchez...moving on, Lukaku who is just a lump, Martial lazy and disinterested, Herrera, Matic, McTominay, Pereira and Fred.

It's not like he is topping the charts at City or Liverpool is it mate, he is basically better than the rest of the drivel.

For me it is a similar situation to Liverpool and Coutinho, they sold their best player and bought Van Dijk/Alisson, sold best player to improve the overall team.

I can see us following suit.
 

Bestofthebest

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We have not had a proper functioning midfield since BEFORE Fergie left. We have also not had an available scapegoat such as Pogba. It is all too easy to blame him for all the teams ills but the truth is he is the nearest thing to the real deal we have got. Yes I get that he is a bit arrogant, laid back, lazy even etc. but I would bet my last penny that if he goes to a top team he will be an outstanding asset for that team. Ironically I don't think Real Madrid is the right team for him, they are like us in that they are an ageing team and had several managers of late, but still in a better position than us. He would make a big contribution there but not as much as for other top European teams.
 

el3mel

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Except in this case it's abundantly clear that the stats and 'agenda' (in this case I'm taking the word to mean 'being able to describe what you are seeing on the pitch with your eyes') do fit together. The only possible way you can use the stats to exonerate Pogba's work rate is by a partial read of them.

Let's get the evidence together in one place, shall we:

1. The stats in the OP are per game stats, not per 90 minute stats. Pogba mostly plays the full games, so this favours him over players who don't play the full games (the flip side is it looks worse for player like, say, Martial who is lazy but not that lazy)

As @Ajaxsuarez correctly points out:



To do some of the other ones, David Silva runs 11.3km per 90, De Bruyne ran 12.23 per 90 (perhaps helped by his small sample size), Ramsey comes out at 12.1km.

In fact, the only people I've additionally checked who are in Pogba's ballpark are

Ozil who ran 10.5 and Maddison who ran 10.62. I don't know what Leicester fans make of Maddison, but I do know Ozil is regularly criticised for not working hard enough.

2. He runs less than any player in our midfield, and runs less than players with similar builds

As Classical Mechanic demonstrated Pogba runs over a kilometre less than our other midfielders, and runs less than players of comparable build




3. Pogba worked the least hard out of anyone in our Champions League campaign



4. Pogba spends the most time walking in the league (or had in April)



Conclusions:

Pogba covers the least distance per 90 of any midfielder at the club. Pogba covers less distance than players with comparable builds, and players who are primarily tasked with being the creative outlets for their team. The only player I can find who has comparable numbers to Pogba are players also criticised for laziness. Pogba spends more time walking than any other midfielder in the Premier League.

If we add all that up I would say it is abundantly, perhaps irrefutably clear, that Pogba is not a hard working player. People criticise Pogba for being lazy because they are correctly identifying that he is not working as hard as his teammates.

With that in mind, the discussion for me should not be whether or not Pogba is lazy, but whether or not his work ethic can be accommodated, whether his positives outweigh his negatives, and whether a successful Premier League midfield '3' can accommodate a player like him in it.
Need a threadmark here. This post makes the entire topic useless all honestly.
 

Adam-Utd

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They did though. The “baby elephant in the room” thread cropped up half way (I think?) through his first season under Mourinho. Maybe even earlier?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/baby-elephant-is-growing-quickly-in-the-room.422336/

You are correct.

Interestingly pretty much all the complaints are identical to what he has now. It's clear his price tag has influenced many people to expect more than what he's capable of.

What we can expect from Pogba;

Plenty of goal scoring chances created, a fair amount of goals from open play. Great long and short passing with the ability to hold the ball under pressure.

What we can't expect.

The individual ability to win a match by himself, expecting him to be creator, scorer, destroyer, and everything in between.
 

artursk

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Let's not forget who he is up against, he has played every minute he has been available and is up against Mata who rarely plays, Rashford who shoots whenever he gets the ball, Lingard who has 16 assists in his career and one in 2019, Sanchez...moving on, Lukaku who is just a lump, Martial lazy and disinterested, Herrera, Matic, McTominay, Pereira and Fred.

It's not like he is topping the charts at City or Liverpool is it mate, he is basically better than the rest of the drivel.

For me it is a similar situation to Liverpool and Coutinho, they sold their best player and bought Van Dijk/Alisson, sold best player to improve the overall team.

I can see us following suit.
"Rest of the drivel" :lol: But honestly, what has happened to this great team.

Maybe we should do something similar to the Grasshoppers Zurich fans. They got relegated for the 1st time in 70 years. At 4-0 down in Luzern fans moved pitchside and threatened to storm the pitch. Demanded players hand over shirts & socks. Wanted them to crawl back to changing room like dogs, in just pants. Game abandoned. :lol: