Shut up and go coach Celtic, washed up manager...
He is still talking about the club to make him relevant. Utterly pathetic
He is still talking about the club to make him relevant. Utterly pathetic
Mourinho comments about our season to L'Equipe
- Thread starter MrPooni
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Please,Where did he say that?
5 months, next week.
And don’t forget that Ole retained almost all of the previous coaching staff. So his impact on individual players was always going to be fairly gradual.
Besides, the best way to get individual players performing better is by integrating them into a functional team. He hasn’t yet done that but it’s not unreasonable to expect a new signing or two before that happens. Especially with a squad of players that’s been as dysfunctional as our useless twats, over such a long period of time.
No you simply don't understand that a season is carefully prepared a long time in advance, you are not actually going to see improvements in player's developments after six months. Depending on the context you could see collective improvements in terms of performances but that's generally a false impression. 6 months is nothing in sports and players development.
Was countering this point of yours:
What Ole achieved - a string of wins followed by a string of defeats - is something any caretaker manager could do. And it isn't better than what Mourinho did as Mourinho got the best out of the players for 2 seasons followed by a crap half-season, for all his faults. Any outgoing manager would leave in a slump.
If Ole had maintained our winning run till the end of the season, only then could you have said he got more out of the squad than Mourinho.
And not slightly. Much better, Mourinho sustained it over a season as opposed to 10 games.
Yep, sorry - I actually wrote 5 months in my original post (as can be seen a few posts back), then @JPRouve wrote 6 months in his reply and I thought maybe I'd miscalculated.
Ok, so now you're just ranting bollox.Was countering this point of yours:
What Ole achieved - a string of wins followed by a string of defeats - is something any caretaker manager could do. And it isn't better than what Mourinho did as Mourinho got the best out of the players for 2 seasons followed by a crap half-season, for all his faults. Any outgoing manager would leave in a slump.
If Ole had maintained our winning run till the end of the season, only then could you have said he got more out of the squad than Mourinho.
And not slightly. Much better, Mourinho sustained it over a season as opposed to 10 games.
Ole has been in charge for 21 games this season. Over those 21 games he average just under 2 points per game. Mourinho was in charge for 17 games this season. Over those 17 games he averaged 1.5 points per game.
If you still can't grasp why I think Ole got an improvement out of Mourinho's squad of players then that's on you. I can't dumb this point down any more than I have already.
And no, it's not "something any caretaker manager could do" Can you name me any other caretaker manager, at any other club, who averaged 2 points per game during their first partial season in charge?
Bit sanctimonious but whatevs.
Sorry, I don't agree. A players performance is predicated partly on things like training plans, but is also influenced by a huge amount of other things that can be improved in a short time. Just basic stuff like confidence, motivation, inspiration can all make a big difference, and are all things that are within the remit of a manager. You seem to be saying that the die is cast on a players performance during preseason and nothing can divert it from the course that it will take throughout the following season. I just don't believe that is true.
When we talk about Ole and caretaker managers, I don't know why, but Craig Shakespeare comes to mind!Was countering this point of yours:
What Ole achieved - a string of wins followed by a string of defeats - is something any caretaker manager could do. And it isn't better than what Mourinho did as Mourinho got the best out of the players for 2 seasons followed by a crap half-season, for all his faults. Any outgoing manager would leave in a slump.
If Ole had maintained our winning run till the end of the season, only then could you have said he got more out of the squad than Mourinho.
And not slightly. Much better, Mourinho sustained it over a season as opposed to 10 games.
No, I'm talking about improving players individually while you are talking about improving the form. If anything Ole drastically improved the form during the first months, probably due to the things that you mentioned. Now he didn't manage to maintain it after injuries and really bad form but you can't say that he did show those things.
Why are you comparing Mourinho's half season with Ole's? It is agreed that Jose downed tools in his third season, we could have stuck Fred the Red as manager going into the season for all he cared. His mind was already out the door before he got the P45. Mourinho got maximum results from a mediocre squad (unbeaten run, 2 cups and 2nd place) in the 2 seasons he actually put in a shift.
2 points per game for 10 games...why don't you even talk about the second half? If "fatigue" is the reason we couldn't beat Cardiff, Huddersfield etc, then "new manager bounce" can be attributed to the first half of the season - a di Matteo in the league, so to speak. If you think Ole deserves credit for those 10 games, he takes the blame for the remaining games as well.
Truth is, Ole didn't improve anything. He did what the likes of Shakespeare, Hiddink and others do - steady the ship, spread a bit of positivity, got an initial bounce of which PSG was the highlight and then lost most of the other games. "Improving squad" is maintaining consistent results, not 10 games of which only 3 were won playing a proper style of football anyway.
I'm talking about improving the form (which we see in their individual performances) of players over the course of working with them for 5 months. As I said in my original post on the subject we did see a spike in the form of the likes of Pogba and Rashford when Ole first came in - but that was so soon after he arrived it's more likely ascribable to the change in atmosphere after Mourinho. What I am concerned about is the fact that there is no single player whose form actually improved sustainably during that period. And given how shite we were for the first half of the season that is pretty damning.
So he would have had to maintain title winning form over perhaps the 2 best teams in Europe to have been an improvement on Mourinho?Was countering this point of yours:
What Ole achieved - a string of wins followed by a string of defeats - is something any caretaker manager could do. And it isn't better than what Mourinho did as Mourinho got the best out of the players for 2 seasons followed by a crap half-season, for all his faults. Any outgoing manager would leave in a slump.
If Ole had maintained our winning run till the end of the season, only then could you have said he got more out of the squad than Mourinho.
And not slightly. Much better, Mourinho sustained it over a season as opposed to 10 games.
But that's not the case, we do have players that have seen their form improve which is why we have had better results with Ole, not good results but better. The form did drop badly in April but let's not ignore the fact that we played better team during that period and that we were in form before it.
Hiddink ended up with 1.7 points per game in that season.
I'm not even going to bother checking Shakespeare's.
Any other examples you'd like to mention?
Just finishing 3rd with 73 points. Or even 4th with 72 points to have an argument that he managed any sort of improvement. He didn't.
Who cares about points per season? That was an entirely different squad. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Simple point I am making is that you are basing Ole's "improvement" on one half of a half season he managed, which is an incredibly small sample size and one he didn't even sustain.
I fear we are going around in circles here. Can you name a player that has improved over the course of 5 months with OGS? Not a player who did a bit better for a few games and then reverted to type - but a player who has clearly thrived under his management so far? To absolve the manager of any responsibility for improving the players he already has at his disposal is odd. He's had them for half a season, not a handful of games.
Why you personally think we should back him? Don't hide behind the board - so far they've proven they can't be trusted and made one stupid decision after another.
2 points per game this is in PL or total? Because if you calculate it in all comps is 1.79 since he has been hired, or I'm calculating it wrong?
(It’s points per game, by the way. Over the course of the remainder of the season after replacing Mourinho. Exact same number of games, as it happens)
Yeah, yeah. Was a typo.
(It’s points per game, by the way. Over the course of the remainder of the season after replacing Mourinho. Exact same number of games, as it happens)
PL, obviously. You don’t get points for cup games. Why the hell would you include cup games? (Of course, I already know the answer to that question)
EDIT: Plus he still did better than Hiddink, even if you do include cup games to get “points” per game average.
We are going in circle because you are still conflating improving the form and improving players, you are not going to improve the form for 5 months, not when you have for example an injury crisis in the middle of it. But Mctominay and Lindelof for example are two players that haven't been injured and have shown solid improvements in terms of form, the rest have had fitness issues while others are just bad players.
well to be fair that is the easiest metric for looking at how he has performed across all comps.
He did take the 3rd most points in the league since his appointment. Can't fault him for the team being far behind in 6th place when he took over. The improvement is pretty obvious.
Whereas you are separating them. It's just semantics. Form is part of improvement - you can't have one without the other!
McTominay and Lindelof are guys who were already doing well under Mourinho.
To create a bigger sample?
Either way it's not 2 points per game but 1.9 if you include only PL.
It’s a terrible metric though. Cup games get harder as the season goes on. So it’s a useless way to work out if we’ve improved under a manager who joins in late December. So useless I suspect it’s being used to deliberately undermine the analysis.
Which is better than Jose in 2016-17 season and 2018-19 season btw
Oh well then, that changes everything!
It's incredible how stories and contexts changes from time to time.
I remember vividly during Jose's second summer transfer window here when he bought matic, lukaku and lindelof the general narrative from media and pundits was that he had no more excuse not to deliver, even Ryan giggs openly predicted that the tittle race would be between the Manchester clubs but fast forward two years later and we were lucky to finish second and we were never considered good enough to compete?
Jose mourinho has won a lot in football but his time here was a failure and 90% was all on him. His tactics and pattern of football was horrendous.
Why did he buy sanchez when our left side of attack was already filled with attackers who were performing at the time? what was his tactics against Sevilla(home and away),Valencia, derby county,west ham (away)?what was he trying to achieve when he started pogba in one of the most shitiest starting line up I have ever seen against Valencia(away) after he openly said it's would be a test for who starts against liverpool?or when he started mctominay at center back against westham?his tug of war with the board wore everyone at the club down.
I also dislike how he's trying to make pogba the face of the bad attitude he's campaigning around,wasn't that what he did at Chelsea and madrid? the same Chelsea team that won the title the next season and the same Madrid team that won 4 champions league in 5 years? yes the club has it's own issue like everyother club but Jose was an even bigger issue,there's a reason he never last more than two seasons in a club.
I have been watching football long enough to know when a team is underperforming because of players or because of manager.
We are yet to get a good manager who can coach his team to play cohesive football since Fergie,solkjaer is a nice guy who says and make a lot of nostalgic statement but we need a good coach or else Jose will continue dropping this interviews on how it was all the club and the players but not him heck even Moyes is trying to save face,we need a good manager and we need it now.
I remember vividly during Jose's second summer transfer window here when he bought matic, lukaku and lindelof the general narrative from media and pundits was that he had no more excuse not to deliver, even Ryan giggs openly predicted that the tittle race would be between the Manchester clubs but fast forward two years later and we were lucky to finish second and we were never considered good enough to compete?
Jose mourinho has won a lot in football but his time here was a failure and 90% was all on him. His tactics and pattern of football was horrendous.
Why did he buy sanchez when our left side of attack was already filled with attackers who were performing at the time? what was his tactics against Sevilla(home and away),Valencia, derby county,west ham (away)?what was he trying to achieve when he started pogba in one of the most shitiest starting line up I have ever seen against Valencia(away) after he openly said it's would be a test for who starts against liverpool?or when he started mctominay at center back against westham?his tug of war with the board wore everyone at the club down.
I also dislike how he's trying to make pogba the face of the bad attitude he's campaigning around,wasn't that what he did at Chelsea and madrid? the same Chelsea team that won the title the next season and the same Madrid team that won 4 champions league in 5 years? yes the club has it's own issue like everyother club but Jose was an even bigger issue,there's a reason he never last more than two seasons in a club.
I have been watching football long enough to know when a team is underperforming because of players or because of manager.
We are yet to get a good manager who can coach his team to play cohesive football since Fergie,solkjaer is a nice guy who says and make a lot of nostalgic statement but we need a good coach or else Jose will continue dropping this interviews on how it was all the club and the players but not him heck even Moyes is trying to save face,we need a good manager and we need it now.
the difference is 3-4 points in 38 games season, which could easily mean missing out on 4th place.and much less than 17/18 season. 18/19 season is the one who got him the sack btw and in 16/17 he won 2 cups to give him the 17/18 seasonWhich is better than Jose in 2016-17 season and 2018-19 season btw
What's even more hilarious is we lost the title in december because his donkey signing gifted them the ball on both of their goals.
The difference is completely irrelevant when comparing to Mourinho’s 1.5 points per game. You know that though. You’re so fecking biased this is a pointless discussion anyway. The cup games thing was the final straw. I’m out.
and much less than 17/18 season. 18/19 season is the one who got him the sack btw and in 16/17 he won 2 cups to give him the 17/18 season
Shame the 2 cups that Jose won, Ole couldn't play. Jose was eliminated by fecking Derby at OT and we were playing European best teams in CL rather than average teams in Europa.and much less than 17/18 season. 18/19 season is the one who got him the sack btw and in 16/17 he won 2 cups to give him the 17/18 season
18-19 points alone didn't get him sacked, it's just accumulation of all the issues. In any case, even if we go by points Jose had 1.5 points per game, 0 GD and this was with the team he built in 2.5 years.
Then why start it? 2 points per game is different to 1.9 per game, wtf are you on about? Why not round it 1 point per game for Jose, just to suit your agenda. I asked you how did you calculate it, because in PL it's not 2.0 before you threw your toys out of the pram.
Don't bother responding if you don't have anything constructive to say.
Jose averaged 1.81, 2.13 and 1.52 points in his 3 seasons. Or 1.89 in his tenure in PL.
Ole averaged 1.90 in his 21 games in PL.
Ole played in CL QF's because Jose qualified the team to the second stage. Seriously...
His head coach comment made it pretty obvious what he thought of having oversight. Mou hated most of the DOFs he worked with.
Regarding Woody we all know he is slow to act. Our recent players contract negotiations makes it quite obvious
One can be both anti Mou and anti Woodward.
No, Ole played in CL QFs because we won against PSG in round of 16, something that Jose failed to do against Seville last season.
Why aren't they considering the 2.13 ppg at all? Jose was at his peak. Of course, that wasn't a good season for the standards we expected but it was better than 1.9 ppg, wasn't it?
And let's face it, if Ole had more than 21 games, there is a likelihood of that 1.9 ppg going down rather than up considering how our form has fallen off a cliff.