Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?

[The Siege]

On some days, I feel like a lot of this forum just forgets the decade of football played between 2005 and 2015.

In a team that hasn't defended well as a unit for most years since the late 2000s, Sergio Ramos has provided so much versatility to multiple managers in defense, that alone is an incredible achievement. Stepped in from right-back to centre-back when Carvalho was out, and absolutely ran the show on that side of the pitch. Then there's the matter of how no defender is more key to set pieces at both ends of the pitch. He's also great at reading that last unprecedented second of danger within the penalty box, that no one else can see.

Was he vulnerable to the occasional error even at his peak? Absolutely. But who in his era wasn't? The only stick he can and should be beaten with is his disciplinary record, because that's the only part where he's let his team down. However there are two evident benchmarks of his quality: 1) He's respected by world class defenders and 2) You can see the psychological advantage the opponents get when Ramos isn't available. There aren't many honors and achievements that he's received that he wasn't a key part in acquiring, so it's really far more than fine for future generations to rate him highly.

 

[Infordin]

They are knockout competitions. They are not something you can follow 24-7 like the Premier League. And Beckham is a bigger celebrity than all the players you mentioned with exception of the big 2. And he became that while still in England. And Perez often targets PL stars because of how big they are globally.

I think there are quite a few legends who build their reputation on showing up at the right time, rather than consistent performances on a weekly basis.

I don’t want to mention any names because that would completely derail the topic.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

For what it’s worth, IMO Rio Ferdinand was a more complete defender than Sergio Ramos.

But Ramos will be remembered a lot more and regarded higher, because unfortunately that is how football works.

Yeah but why do you care? I'm personally not interested in who gets more glory and fame. I imagine we are representing our views here on quality and peformances rather than who gets the glory in some football history books. That's what overrated/underrated is all about. Glory/reputation Vs actual peformances.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Juliano Beletti scored the wining goal in a Champions League final. Is he a bigger icon than Puyol? And Terry, Rio and Vidic have all won more league titles and they did in the most popular sporting league in the World. They are some of the biggest legends of the Premier League and England tends to show respect to Centrebacks more than any other country. And they have all knocked out some of the best teams in Europe as well. And Chelsea and Manchester United both broke European clean sheet records during their times at the club.

Those three also didn't defend in a ropey manner all season only to score some important headers in a knockout tie or two. They defended brilliantly week in week out.

Also, I don't see how we can compare international accolades. Ramos and Pique were always going to be win plenty of honours with the dominance of Spanish football. Rio and Terry played for a useless England. Vidic played for Serbia. I would also argue that Spanish teams tend to do better in the CL than English ones as their attackers , midfielders and coaching in general (more than defenders) is more suited to winning multiple CLs, even though English teams did do well in that period.

 

[Peyroteo]

Yeah but why do you care? I'm personally not interested in who gets more glory and fame. I imagine we are representing our views here on quality and peformances rather than who gets the glory in some football history books. That's what overrated/underrated is all about. Glory/reputation Vs actual peformances.

Ramos has had more great performances and moments at decisive times than any CB of the past 15 years.

His glory and reputation are in line with his performances. The more important competitions in the sport are knockout competitions, the sport is structured in a way that does not value consistency anywhere near as much as it should.

Pique has been better than Ramos 90% of the time in the past decade. History will rightfully remember Ramos as the better player though.

Knockout football and league football are very different. The style of play is different, the teams’ mindsets are different, atmosphere is different. It’s not the same matches with a higher chance of an upset happening, it’s a different game. Some teams and some players are more suited to it than others.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I think there are quite a few legends who build their reputation on showing up at the right time, rather than consistent performances on a weekly basis.

I don’t want to mention any names because that would completely derail the topic.

I feel like that was more of a thing when there was a lot less Football available on TV. But, that will probably be less of a thing since like 2006 every match that has been played is available on TV or online somewhere. The type of fan interested in these type of debates have a lot more access to Football than they did in the past.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He'll go down as a great, no doubt. Whether he "deserves" it based on his ability as a defender is another matter, but the bottom line is his undeniable impact in numerous big wins for both club and country.

Traditional all-time lists will contain, at the top end, players who were exceptionally good defenders but had something extra on top of their defensive abilities. Ramos has the "extra" part but he was never an exceptionally good defender (certainly not in an all-time context).

 

[gaucho_10]

Ramos is one of the best CB in the last 10 yrs, but one of the all time greats? hell no!!

You probably think guys like Rio or Vidic are better then he is and I completely disagree.

We see things differently and that's normal.

 

[Okey]

Sergio Ramos overrated??? Easily one of the best centre backs of his generation. Absolute beast and leader of men. World class quality on the pitch. And all for the better part of a decade. Sounds like sacrilege to call him overrated. I hear VVD and Laporte and that's actually laughable. 2 great seasons do not an all time great make...

 

[Kag]

He’s never been the greatest defender (he’s made so many mistakes over the years) but there’s more to football than the technicalities of defending, isn’t there? His all round impact on the success of both Madrid and Spain speaks volumes about his overall contribution as a footballer. And to be fair, when he’s on it, he’s a brilliant defender on some of the biggest occasions.

 

[Kag]

Ramos was easily better than Terry. Come on.

When it comes to the technical aspects of defending then Terry was better and by a fairly comfortable margin. But then as I’ve just suggested above, there’s more to contribution than the technicalities.

Really, there’s two separate discussions to be had when it comes to Ramos. One to discuss the technical side of things, and another to discuss his obvious impact and greatness.

 

[Cloud7]

Far too often this forum likes to think of defending as one isolated facet of the game, which is why you still have people claiming Smalling is a worthwhile player.

A defender is part of the team, just like any other player, and they’re meant to be judged on their contribution as a whole, not just on doing one particular thing. In terms of pure defending ability Ramos may not be as good as some other defenders of years gone by (Though personally I think his defensive qualities are excellent, but I know some will disagree), but besides his defensive abilities, what he brings to the team is much more than any defender in world football brings to their team.

He’s very much a leader and a winner, he’s excellent on the ball and his technical ability overall is outstanding, one of the most dangerous players I’ve ever seen on attacking set pieces, and he is very much a player for the big occasion. Time and time again he’s stood up and been counted on the biggest stages when it’s mattered.

For me without a doubt he’s been the best CB around for quite a few years now, followed up by Pique, and will rightly go down as one of the best ever.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Far too often this forum likes to think of defending as one isolated facet of the game, which is why you still have people claiming Smalling is a worthwhile player.

A defender is part of the team, just like any other player, and they’re meant to be judged on their contribution as a whole, not just on doing one particular thing. In terms of pure defending ability Ramos may not be as good as some other defenders of years gone by (Though personally I think his defensive qualities are excellent, but I know some will disagree), but besides his defensive abilities, what he brings to the team is much more than any defender in world football brings to their team.

He’s very much a leader and a winner, he’s excellent on the ball and his technical ability overall is outstanding, one of the most dangerous players I’ve ever seen on attacking set pieces, and he is very much a player for the big occasion. Time and time again he’s stood up and been counted on the biggest stages when it’s mattered.

For me without a doubt he’s been the best CB around for quite a few years now, followed up by Pique, and will rightly go down as one of the best ever.

Oh yes, sometimes I fail to see what actually makes Chris Smalling a football player, being quick and pretty good 1 on 1 isn’t enough in the modern game, he’s a great athlete, but a football player? surely not at this level.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

People love to hate on him because of his scum antics but he was a great defender and solid at the other end too.

 

[carvajal]

I think I repeat myself but as Valdano said, Ramos is not a defender, but a footballer who plays in defense.
He has been a good full back,a great CB and if someone with 16 years had told him to be a holding midfielder, he would be one of the best too.
In comparisons, place other defenders in the front line of Madrid, and the need to start the play in a clean manner.

 

[Cloud7]

Oh yes, sometimes I fail to see what actually makes Chris Smalling a football player, being quick and pretty good 1 on 1 isn’t enough in the modern game, he’s a great athlete, but a football player? surely not at this level.

Exactly. As much as people like to laugh at this quote, there’s much more to being a defender than just defending in the modern game. To be a top defender these days you need to be a good footballer, not just a good defender.

 

[adexkola]

Exactly. As much as people like to laugh at this quote, there’s much more to being a defender than just defending in the modern game. To be a top defender these days you need to be a good footballer, not just a good defender.

So you agree that in order to be a top defender these days, you need to be a good footballer and a good defender, not just a good footballer right? Ok, cool.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 46 (!!!!)
2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 10
2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

These numbers are scary for a top flight side.

 

[Shinjch]

He is emblematic of the Madrid team of recent years. You can't trust him over a whole season to deliver week in and week out, but come the big moments and the big games he will be there with his chest out and will deliver.

Depends which you value more on how you rate him really.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The perfect emblem for the mediocre times in which we live.

 

[Cloud7]

So you agree that in order to be a top defender these days, you need to be a good footballer and a good defender, not just a good footballer right? Ok, cool.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 46 (!!!!)
2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 10
2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

These numbers are scary for a top flight side.

More important to be a good footballer than a good defender for me. Should have worded my response better. If I absolutely had to pick one extreme, then it would be the good footballer.

 

[adexkola]

More important to be a good footballer than a good defender for me. Should have worded my response better. If I absolutely had to pick one extreme, then it would be the good footballer.

I just don't see how you can be a top defender without being good at defending.

There is no other defender or attacker on Earth for which your logic applies.

 

[Cloud7]

I just don't see how you can be a top defender without being good at defending.

There is no other defender or attacker on Earth for which your logic applies.

Sure there is. It’s the same as saying that you can’t be a top striker if all you bring to the team is finishing. If you can’t hold up the ball well, create for yourself, link up with the players around you then you can’t be a top attacker either.

 

[adexkola]

Sure there is. It’s the same as saying that you can’t be a top striker if all you bring to the team is finishing. If you can’t hold up the ball well, create for yourself, link up with the players around you then you can’t be a top attacker either.

No, it's like saying that if you can do all of the above well, but can't score, you're a top striker. No one calls Giroud a top striker.

 

[VorZakone]

Put Ramos in a deep defence and he delivers equally as good as someone like Terry or Godin. I'm confident of that.

 

[adexkola]

Put Ramos in a deep defence and he delivers equally as good as someone like Terry or Godin. I'm confident of that.

Why are you confident of that? His yellow/red card record indicates a lack of discipline required to play in a deep defense.

 

[Ian Reus]

Not any more. Bring him...

 

[Cloud7]

No, it's like saying that if you can do all of the above well, but can't score, you're a top striker. No one calls Giroud a top striker.

Ramos defending is much better than Giroud’s attacking though, at least in my opinion. A better comparison would be Firmino. Not the best goal scorer around, but a top class attacker because of everything else he brings to the table.

 

[adexkola]

Ramos defending is much better than Giroud’s attacking though, at least in my opinion. A better comparison would be Firmino. Not the best goal scorer around, but a top class attacker because of everything else he brings to the table.

The numbers don't show that.

 

[Cloud7]

The numbers don't show that.

My eyes tell me what I need to know.

 

[giorno]

Why are you confident of that? His yellow/red card record indicates a lack of discipline required to play in a deep defense.

Pretty much everytime we played a deep defence he was phenomenal

 

[keezw]

Pretty much everytime we played a deep defence he was phenomenal

People should just watch our games against Bayern in 2014. Man is a stonewall when defending deep.

 

[Red Devil Forever]

For me he is an enigma, it's difficult to describe him. Is he a truly world class defender like Maldini, Nesta, Rio etc? No he is not but having said that you can't deny the importance of this guy to this multiple CL winning Madrid side. In my view apart from Ronaldo, he is the main reason why they won those titles. I mean his headers alone are out of this world.

Although I personally don't like his off the ball antics and his play acting is alone worthy of Oscar of some sort.

He desreves some credit for what Madrid achieved but he is not one of the greatest the game has ever seen.

 

[RedCurry]

He's got more leadership than our entire squad combined. He's Real's Roy Keane.

 

[SiRed]

Great player, Great defender, 1st line of attack. Loads of aggression, loads of c*ntishness. Perfect defender really.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So you agree that in order to be a top defender these days, you need to be a good footballer and a good defender, not just a good footballer right? Ok, cool.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 46 (!!!!)
2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 10
2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

These numbers are scary for a top flight side.

That's a shocking record.

 

[Vato]

If anything, this thread proves that he's underrated.

 

[Tostao_80]

It’s not debatable at all.

Ramos has scored in two Champions League finals, and both goals were absolutely crucial to victory for Real Madrid. He scored two goals against a prime Bayern Munich in 2014 to knock them out. He’s put in many great defensive performances against world class teams (Bayern, PSG, Juventus) in huge games. Real Madrid have collapsed multiple times without him on the pitch (against Juve last year, Ajax this year). He’s won 4 Champions League trophies, and was the captain of the team in 3 of them.

At international level Ramos has won a World Cup and 2 Euro Cups. He also has 163 caps and will probably retire as the most capped European player of all time.

Vidic, Ferdinand and Terry don’t even come close. Ramos has a bigger legacy than the three of them combined.

This sums up the quandary regarding Ramos. You begin your defense of him by talking about what games he has scored in. But historically, the very best defenders of all time Beckenbauer, Maldini and Baresi aren't judged by what they scored, or when they scored, or decisive moments upfront. What about defensive discipline and organisation?
Going by your logic, would you place Ramos above the three just mentioned? Would anyone in their right mind claim him to have been a better defender than Franco? Really?

 

[Infordin]

Why are you confident of that? His yellow/red card record indicates a lack of discipline required to play in a deep defense.

Ramos wouldn’t even be booked anywhere near as much if he got the same protection as Terry or Godin.

Most of the goals conceded by Real Madrid are because of their playing style. Both fullbacks love to bomb forward and so do their midfielders, but half the time they are too lazy to run back (this is especially true in La Liga) which leaves Real Madrid’s defence so exposed.

 

[Synco]

So you agree that in order to be a top defender these days, you need to be a good footballer and a good defender, not just a good footballer right? Ok, cool.

La Liga goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 46 (!!!!)
2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38

CL goals conceded by Madrid

2018-19: 10
2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10

These numbers are scary for a top flight side.

But what does that prove? Put John Terry in that side playing a high line with subpar compactness and team workrate, and they'd concede just as much. Defending starts at the front, and everyone who has followed Real during the BBC years knows about the quite severe problems in that regard.

 

[Dansk]

He's been in the top tier as far as footballing abilities go, but his consistent propensity for getting sent off is a huge blemish on his worth as a player.