Our biggest problem - managers, players, or owners?

[MackRobinson]

Managers. I think there is a lot of over-complicating, and over-analysis of things people know little to nothing about.

What I do know is that we play football. From what I’ve seen of the players in our squad throughout their careers - they should play better than they do for us. From what I see watching our team and other top sides - we have no consistent footballing style or strategy. The teams that DO have cohesive teams have much heralded managers. However, people on here love to delude themselves that they can actually string more than two accurate sentences about what Beguristain for example actually does better than others.

Liverpool put out the following XI that beat Barcelona 4-0 at Anfield:

Allison

Trent Alexander-Arnold
Joel Matip
Virgil Van Dijk
Andy Robertson

Fabinho
James Milner
Jordan Henderson

Xherdan Shaqiri
Divock Origi
Sadio Mane

People still seem to think we need to have the best XI in the world to perform with some self-respect. Unless Woodward, Arnold or any other suit is going to coach the side, then during the season, the responsibility of getting performances out of the squad of players rests with the manager and his staff. The players are good enough to have performed better than they have, for a long time. Half the caf want a whole Paul Pogba to be sold, while Pochettino has managed to get a tune out of Moussa fexking Sissoko all year.

Tired of the excuses and overcomplications. Our managers should get the most they can out of the squad they have, and when they can do that, I might shift my blame to the suits above for not getting them better players to go even further. But when you are losing at home to Cardiff City, the blame starts and ends at Carrington to me.

This.

If someone told you 2 years ago a midfield of James Milner, Jordan Henderson, Wijnaldum, and Fabinho could win a CL what would your response have been?

 

[Leftback99]

Managers. I think there is a lot of over-complicating, and over-analysis of things people know little to nothing about.

What I do know is that we play football. From what I’ve seen of the players in our squad throughout their careers - they should play better than they do for us. From what I see watching our team and other top sides - we have no consistent footballing style or strategy. The teams that DO have cohesive teams have much heralded managers. However, people on here love to delude themselves that they can actually string more than two accurate sentences about what Beguristain for example actually does better than others.

Liverpool put out the following XI that beat Barcelona 4-0 at Anfield:

Allison

Trent Alexander-Arnold
Joel Matip
Virgil Van Dijk
Andy Robertson

Fabinho
James Milner
Jordan Henderson

Xherdan Shaqiri
Divock Origi
Sadio Mane

People still seem to think we need to have the best XI in the world to perform with some self-respect. Unless Woodward, Arnold or any other suit is going to coach the side, then during the season, the responsibility of getting performances out of the squad of players rests with the manager and his staff. The players are good enough to have performed better than they have, for a long time. Half the caf want a whole Paul Pogba to be sold, while Pochettino has managed to get a tune out of Moussa fexking Sissoko all year.

Tired of the excuses and overcomplications. Our managers should get the most they can out of the squad they have, and when they can do that, I might shift my blame to the suits above for not getting them better players to go even further. But when you are losing at home to Cardiff City, the blame starts and ends at Carrington to me.

While you might see it as not very good on paper, Liverpool's recruitment of that team is based on their top class scouting and analysis structure, buying players over the last few years who will fit well into Klopp's system.

We have a squad of players bought by different managers who all suit different styles, don't have the right mentality or simply aren't good enough. Throw in a couple of youngsters and a stack of injuries and it's no real surprise we can't even beat Cardiff.

 

[el3mel]

Woodward is the biggest problem.

 

[Rozay]

While you might see it as not very good on paper, Liverpool's recruitment of that team is based on their top class scouting and analysis structure, buying players over the last few years who will fit well into Klopp's system.

We have a squad of players bought by different managers who all suit different styles, don't have the right mentality or simply aren't good enough. Throw in a couple of youngsters and a stack of injuries and it's no real surprise we can't even beat Cardiff.

I think that’s all rhetoric, and doesn’t really mean anything. Of the XI players, Origi, Henderson and I think Milner we’re not bought by Klopp, and another game through their academy. ‘Scouting, analysis structure’, these are all empty buzzwords to me. So is this theory that all of our players suit different styles. They have had plenty of good games as a team. Just not enough. Barcelona has even better players, all suited to one style or whatever, and they lost the a depleted Liverpool side. 4-0. A shite midfield, with Salah and Firmino missing up top. That same XI doesn’t win 4-0 if they played for us.

The manager is responsible. The previous manager was here 3 seasons and bought most of the players in his first XI. So why did he not have them playing as a unit? Because of Ed Woodward? Problems are a lot simpler than made out to me. We’re a football team. Let’s put the over analysis of the suits to one side.

 

[Leftback99]

I think that’s all rhetoric, and doesn’t really mean anything. Of the XI players, Origi, Henderson and I think Milner we’re not bought by Klopp, and another game through their academy. ‘Scouting, analysis structure’, these are all empty buzzwords to me. So is this theory that all of our players suit different styles. They have had plenty of good games as a team. Just not enough. Barcelona has even better players, all suited to one style or whatever, and they lost the a depleted Liverpool side. 4-0. A shite midfield, with Salah and Firmino missing up top. That same XI doesn’t win 4-0 if they played for us.

The manager is responsible. The previous manager was here 3 seasons and bought most of the players in his first XI. So why did he not have them playing as a unit? Because of Ed Woodward? Problems are a lot simpler than made out to me. We’re a football team. Let’s put the over analysis of the suits to one side.

Those empty buzzwords are working pretty well for Liverpool.

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[Dr. StrangeHate]

Owners/club structure:
There is no long term philosophy or sense. We went from a possession based manger to a counter attacking one. Then they gave it to Ole despite promising to wait till the end of the season. If they had waited like they said, we could have got a manager in that everyone believed in.
Every manager comes in and buys their own players, at a big club like ours this shouldn't be the case, there should be a football person/team that makes the decision considering long term and manager should only be allowed to identify a position and type of player.

Manager:
This has been discussed to death. We just go after what is available or on romance. I blame the club structure for hiring them more than the manager themselves.

Players:
The players aren't good enough to challenge for the league. But top 4 under a competent manager should be a given. Again the club structure to be blamed, don't get every manager what they want. Think of long term what is needed.

 

[Rozay]

Those empty buzzwords are working pretty well for Liverpool.

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Well obviously I am not disputing that things like scouting is important in football. The point was more that a scouting issue would indicate the problem is the players we have signed are not up to it. My issue is that they are more up to it than they have shown. They are more up to it than the XI than Liverpool put out against Barca in my opinion, but the issue is that to me, no matter who we have bought in the last 6 years, none of them have improved and most have gotten visibly worse. Excellent scouting doesn’t make Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Origi and Mané overrun Barcelona. It doesn’t make Zinchenko or Delph suddenly become competent full-backs where ours have fallen short.

We need to get more out of what we have. Even if we add better players l, we would just be polishing a turd, so to speak, unless we first set up a way of playing and have a manager capable of getting his players to subscribe to it. Once that happens, enter Woodward and co to back him to take it to the next level. But he can’t do Ole or Jose’s jobs for them, and it is on the pitch we are failing most.

 

[Shalashaska]

Everything probably comes back to a period in the 90s. We decided that we were a brand/commercial vehicle as much as a football club.

This eventually leads to the Glazer takeover. This eventually leads to mediocrity being the norm.

It was all so preventable

You absolutely cannot ignore the importance of the club being a brand as well as a team.

The commercial strength of United is an incredible revenue stream, and gives us the agency as a financial power that teams with oil money just don't have.

The biggest problem here is that we don't join up the commercial and footballing elements. We should use the benefit of being mega rich to fund large scouting networks, the best facilities, the top coaches throughout the club etc.

Instead we just count our money and allow the glazers to use it to fund other projects.

A sorry state of affairs

 

[Leftback99]

Well obviously I am not disputing that things like scouting is important in football. The point was more that a scouting issue would indicate the problem is the players we have signed are not up to it. My issue is that they are more up to it than they have shown. They are more up to it than the XI than Liverpool put out against Barca in my opinion, but the issue is that to me, no matter who we have bought in the last 6 years, none of them have improved and most have gotten visibly worse. Excellent scouting doesn’t make Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Origi and Mané overrun Barcelona. It doesn’t make Zinchenko or Delph suddenly become competent full-backs where ours have fallen short.

We need to get more out of what we have. Even if we add better players l, we would just be polishing a turd, so to speak, unless we first set up a way of playing and have a manager capable of getting his players to subscribe to it. Once that happens, enter Woodward and co to back him to take it to the next level. But he can’t do Ole or Jose’s jobs for them, and it is on the pitch we are failing most.

That 11 against Barca was still 8/9 of their first choice 11. It's easier to slot 1/2 players in once you have a base to work with. Milner/Henderson suit how Klopp wants their midfield to play, high work rate, high energy, you're not going to get the same from Matic and Pogba, maybe Herrera and Fred, they suit different styles.

The team we had against Cardiff was more like a league cup side the way it was made up.

 

[doriandun]

Spot on, especially about moving on the dead weight. We have a squad full of 'squad players' that would struggle to make it into any other squad in the top half of the PL table.

Liverpool win the CL on Saturday & release 2 player on Tuesday - getting business done on and off the pitch.
Meanwhile at OT - Young, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Darmian, Bailly, Matic, Lingard, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fred, Rashford, Martial. Would anyone genuinely lament the 'loss' of any of this lot?

Owners care not about football, only the profits they pinch from the club via golden-boy Ed (who negotiated the purchase of the club which didn't cost the Glazers a sing penny let's not forget!).
Board care not about football, only commercial deals.
Manager is possibly out of his depth and will be undermined by the above.
Players care not about the club or the fans. It looks like they don't even enjoy playing football at all. I've seen more will to win in over 40's 5-a-side.

It's rotten from the top down and the bottom up. Dark days ahead with little to no sign of light at the end of the tunnel!

Although i think you are being a little harsh on Lukaku, poor touch aside, if we have or had proper wing play, his numbers would be greater, also Bailly is not a bad player, a little rash, which comes from his reading of the game, not decsion making per se,he can not connecting the dots, and smell danger, this is something he can develop, but as a professional has decided not to, he needs to spend more time watching games and build his understanding.

Matic i would say judge him this season, as i think he's being carrying an injury, and has been constantly rushed back from injury, for the last two to three years, and it does not help that are centre backs have been indifferent, and our midfield balance is wrong, hence why Mourinho chose to play narrow and compact, due to the resources availiable.

If a manager chooses to play three in midfield, they normally need a defender, a controller, and the creator, if the manager chooses to play the two, which is Mourinho's favoured formation, then a defender and controller is only required and the three in front behind the strikerare there to provide ammunition for the striker, and chip in with a few goals.

 

[fallengt]

Those empty buzzwords are working pretty well for Liverpool.

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They bought Van Dijk because he was statistically best CB in the league and we had some CAF posters just didn't rate him because he was playing for relegation side. Yep CAF knows best

 

[Rozay]

That 11 against Barca was still 8/9 of their first choice 11. It's easier to slot 1/2 players in once you have a base to work with. Milner/Henderson suit how Klopp wants their midfield to play, high work rate, high energy, you're not going to get the same from Matic and Pogba, maybe Herrera and Fred, they suit different styles.

The team we had against Cardiff was more like a league cup side the way it was made up.

Agree, it was a large portion of their first XI. The individuals though, are not all great players. The point is, they have a good coach who has a plan. It is our manager’s job to do the same, and we haven’t done this. If Klopp can get players like that to perform, even without the sprinkling of quality that Salah and Mané provide, why can’t any of our coaches, for years, get consistent good performances from ours? Because they are all rubbish? ‘Because Woodward?’, ‘Because DOF?’.

For me, once I see that we are getting the max from what we do have, I will then remove the manager from the blame if we are still falling short.

 

[Bestietom]

Owners and Woodward are the problem.

 

[M Bison]

It’s a combination of all 3.

Ridiculously stupid for people to blame solely 1 party for our woes in recent years.

Managers post Fergie have been backed when it was sensible to do so (last season Jose’s reported targets weren’t sensible at the numbers quoted) so it’s difficult to solely blame the owners or Woodward.

When Ole came in we looked a good side and then performances dropped off a cliff which has got to be down to a combination of the management and players.

From top to bottom, everyone needs to work harder and up their performances. Ole in particular needs to start to get the extra 10% he was initially getting out of the players as a starting point. No point in spending a fortune on new players if the existing ones are underperforming.

 

[nesty]

One of my friends managed to have a one to one chat in a hotel with Keane prior to an exhibition he was attending a few weeks ago.

Interestingly Keane mentioned how Phelan is the one conducting a large portion of the training sessions and planning tactics whilst Ole has very little input. He simply picks the starting 11 and follows through on what Phelan suggests. He also believed Sir Alex and Phelan are in direct contact (not surprising) however Fergie is having a large influence on the current decisions.

It begs the question, would Mou or Poch be happy with this arrangement? I do wonder what input Ole has in the summer transfer. Is his role to be a yes man?

 

[Shalashaska]

One of my friends managed to have a one to one chat in a hotel with Keane prior to an exhibition he was attending a few weeks ago.

Interestingly Keane mentioned how Phelan is the one conducting a large portion of the training sessions and planning tactics whilst Ole has very little input. He simply picks the starting 11 and follows through on what Phelan suggests. He also believed Sir Alex and Phelan are in direct contact (not surprising) however Fergie is having a large influence on the current decisions.

It begs the question, would Mou or Poch be happy with this arrangement? I do wonder what input Ole has in the summer transfer. Is his role to be a yes man?

I feel like this is likely untrue.

Why would Keane know that for starters? He isn't part of the club, and I doubt any of the players or coaches are running off to tell him this sort of thing.

Also Ole has been a successful manager in Norway, and has faith in his own ability, he isn't going to just turn up to united and let his assistant make all the decisions.

I think the idea of Fergie running the team is a fantasy, people want to have the impression he is this Illuminati type figure that can manage the club from afar, but the truth in the matter is that if you are not on the training ground everyday (like Ole seems to be) you have very little knowledge on which players should play and in what systems. And I think ultimately Fergie would be true to his word and only get involved as and when he is asked, and it would be for advise if anything. I think he realises the damage it would do to the club if he tried to have too big an impact on the team.

 

[reddevil80]

Seriously becasue I'm confused, we just seem to be in a revolving door of blame, manager comes in does crap, he gets blamed, but players are seemingly under-performing, so they get blamed, owners taking money out of the club, and allowing kamikaze Ed to do what he wants, but are throwing big money at the job, so they get half blamed, what really is our biggest issue here, because sure as hell we have one.

the biggest issue at old trafford is simply that we do not have a leader on the pitch. Ole appears to be doing a reasonable job, I feel, however he needs a player to stand up and challenge the rest of the squad and lead by example on the pitch, in training and in the public eye. A player he feels he can rely on to motivate and organise the team on the field while trying to bring our DNA back to what was once a terrifying theatre of nightmares for the opposition.

 

[BelfastBoy11]

It starts from the top.

We need to get rid of parasitic owners who treat the club like a cash cow and invest nothing of their own.

We need a hierarchy at the top who’s focus is on the team, in terms of personnel as well as recruitment strategy and academy structure. At the moment the focus is on commercial partnerships and social media likes.

We then need a manager who has the trust of that hierarchy, the players and the fans.

And the players need to give their all for this club. Our squad now has too many mercenary types attracted only by the coin and not having it in them to strive.

It starts from the top down. Glazers out.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Owners.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Manager, then players & owners. We’ve had enough money on the squad it’s just we’ve invested poorly with a disjointed team.

I find it nonsensical that just because the board & owners haven’t been great it means we should also have a poor manager - where’s the sense in that. Ole isn’t a world class manager & we need one to build a vision & a playing style which the owners would support im sure as they want us to be successful (even if only for increased profits of champions league etc)