Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

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Canagel

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There is no doubt he can beat his defender, he is very skillful player. I'm optimistic as he has trickery and skill on the ball. He is not a typical FB who just kick and run to beat defender, he makes little body feints, changes direction. Also just check the tweet that was posted above, ignore the martial bit and watch the last bit where he beats Wolves player with a skill that even our wingers can't pull off or have the confidence to even try that.

Obviously he should improve his final pass but he is just 21 year old with first full season in PL.
Exactly. These feints and drop of the shoulder etc cannot be done if he didn't have some kind of attacking skills and was just "defensive". I'd imagine we'll see a lot more of it if/when he arrives.
 

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Exactly. These feints and drop of the shoulder etc cannot be done if he didn't have some kind of attacking skills and was just "defensive". I'd imagine we'll see a lot more of it if/when he arrives.
Good point bro.

Guess I'll have to tune in to see him play in the u21 team to see how he fares.
 

croadyman

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I really don't understand this whole debate about AWB and whether he is good enough for us or not.

He is the best fullback in the PL last season, his stats showed an excellent defensive dominance over his opponents, I have seen him against the best winger in the PL and no one could pass this guy, he was stopping the likes of Mane and Sane with ease, he is one of the best with the ball on his feet with very good skills to carry the ball forward. Now to understand his attacking numbers you have to look at the way Crystal Palace are playing.

Crystal Palace play with 4-4-2 system where the Fullback sit in deep during defense, during attacking transition they move upfront and stay inside (inside wing back) which is the almost the same system Pep Guardiola uses sometimes with his fullbacks, this is done to provide the space for their wingers to move freely on the line while their midfielder move up the half spaces, meanwhile the fullbacks provide passing options and support during attack and set good cover against opponents counter attacks.

AWB used to play as a winger, his attacking numbers will definitely improve if we want to use him in a more advance position during attacking transition because he is fast, makes good dribbles, and is able to carry the ball. His crosses are better than most of our fullback except Dalot who is vastly an inferior RB when compared to AWB.

In conclusion, we'll pay 60 millions for the best full back in the PL who is a young English talent, we'll tick every box with this signing, Kyle Walker cost City 50 millions 2 years ago, we are getting a better player for less taking in consideration the state of inflation in the market now. He is a much better option than Meunier who is older, has inferior overall contribution despite playing for a far better club in an inferior league!! Yes we'll keep 35 or 40 millions but for what purpose? If we solve the RB problem for the next 10 years that's a no brainer deal.
I can totally understand many people having reservations about his attacking qualities but honestly think in the right system he will show he is more than capable of providing assists along with his superb quality defending. I really hope he proves the doubters in our fanbase wrong because always great when a player is able to do that
 

Patrick08

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So a player from Lyon will improve his numbers because he will move to big team where he play with better players but a player from Crystal Palace won't improve when he plays with better players at ManUtd.

RMC reported fee is 48 million and add ons. They are in a position where they need big investment, difference is they have signed Mendy and also made investment in other areas too. Not sure about bench mark, it was you who brought Mendy's price, no one else did. The poster you replied to was talking about "Is Mendy a complete player" you came up with his value is 38 million pounds.

I don't know where you are going with your last point. We don't have to address every position in the same window. If the coaches believe AWB is the one to sign then sign him, address whatever we can in this window and then build the solid foundation to make the jump next summer.

AWB is very good technically and in tight spaces, only thing is lacks is final ball. It's not as if we are signing a technically dud player, he is very good on the ball.
Yes for sure, they have way better players in the midfeild and ball playing centre backs who give more time for full backs to bomb forward and influence attacking areas while we need money in those areas to have that kind of luxury to even start talking about AWB improvement in final third.

You yourself are admitting he lacks the final pass and deliveries in the box which is most important in a modern attacking full back. As attacking teams want attacking efficiency in final third as they spend most of the time on the ball to attack.

Hoping AWB to suddenly improve in final pass is like Hoping lukaku becomes very good at holding the ball, or fred to replace Herrera with ease and not panic in posession, hoping martial to improve his off the ball attacking runs and become a successful winger, and shaw to be a natural attacking full back or Sanchez to play as a right winger or bailly and lindelof to improve their aerial ability.

I have lost faith in this scouting department and boards credibility who think pogba can play as a deep lying b2b or matic or fred being a right partner for him Instead of fabinho and failing with multiple new signings including with mkh dimaria schneiderlin, matic, Lukaku.

Not saying AWB is a poor player one bit. But I fully expect him to be a more technical prime Antonio valencia as a right back without the efficiency to deliver attacking width and great deliveries in the box. His defensive side of the game is top notch no doubt. But the price is obnoxious and we are being fleeced and paying a PL premium on him whos not even great at attacking. I'd love to be proved wrong on this.

Also if you compare it with mendy they are paying the price for an attacking full back being an attacking team, while we are paying the price for a defensive full back not that great in providing width and efficiency in attacking third. Massive difference between the two full backs.

Would you be okay if we spend 60 m on AWB but don't have the money to spend on CDM and continue with matic? We can't fix everything in one window, but you got to know and have enough wisdom as a footballing club to know the areas where we need immediate surgery and where we can do with pills and bandages and allot funds according to that.

If we don't fix the midfeild issues and keep playing pogba deep of left side of three and not at 10 in a free role we are laying the foundations of him being even more frustrated, running his contact down for Madrid to swoop for him on the cheap just like they did with hazard courtois and will do with erikson to reduce the price. We just can not neglect midfield issues and have the opinion of not fixing it in one window.
 
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Canagel

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Good point bro.

Guess I'll have to tune in to see him play in the u21 team to see how he fares.
I think it got posted already his stats compared against Robertson for Hull City is nearly the same. The role in big clubs is very different to small clubs.
 

Patrick08

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Some good dribbling ability to beat defenders in the final 3rd. Technically looks very good and it could just be a case of unlocking his attacking instincts in a more attack minded side.
Are we a attack minded side against top opposition who don't wish to park the bus?
 

Adnan

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Are we a attack minded side against top opposition who don't wish to park the bus?
We're a attack minded side under Ole believe it or not. Fitness issues put paid to our season sadly IMO. The sample size may have only been 10 games under Ole. But to me, it was very telling to see how things will shape up next season with a good preseason and financial backing in the transfer window.
 

Patrick08

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We're a attack minded side under Ole believe it or not. Fitness issues put paid to our season sadly IMO. The sample size may have only been 10 games under Ole. But to me, it was very telling to see how things will shape up next season with a good preseason and financial backing in the transfer window.
Fitness issues did play a part later on in the season, I admit that but that's not the sole reason we were toothless in attack and in final third against top opponents like city or Liverpool or Barcelona and psg. And those are some fundamental problems that exists in the midfeild before we start calling ourselves an attacking team.
 

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There is no doubt he can beat his defender, he is very skillful player. I'm optimistic as he has trickery and skill on the ball. He is not a typical FB who just kick and run to beat defender, he makes little body feints, changes direction. Also just check the tweet that was posted above, ignore the martial bit and watch the last bit where he beats Wolves player with a skill that even our wingers can't pull off or have the confidence to even try that.

Obviously he should improve his final pass but he is just 21 year old with first full season in PL.
Great to hear. Agree that final pass can impress with time. If he's excellent defensively, strong and mobile, and skillful enough with the ball at feet, it's a signing we really shouldn't pass up on.
 

RkkMan

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Been thinking the same thing Dalot is MASSIVELY overrated on this platform putting our full faith in him as our first choice RB the whole season with Young still closer to the first team will put us in big trouble
Klopp bought Clyne for big money and move him when TAA step up.
If any of the internal options become than AWB the they'll play and replace him.

Also, there's some serious overrating Dalot and his attacking output on this thread. He's not good enough yet.
 

Adnan

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Fitness issues did play a part later on in the season, I admit that but that's not the sole reason we were toothless in attack and in final third against top opponents like city or Liverpool or Barcelona and psg. And those are some fundamental problems that exists in the midfeild before we start calling ourselves an attacking team.
There's issues obviously that we're hoping will be addressed. Our fullbacks and a lack of pace/intensity in the central midfield areas was detrimental. Herrera and Matic were too slow IMO to provide the energy and drive to provide the foundations for both the attack and defence, Matic more so than Hererra.

Our RW has been a complete non entity for a few years now which also contributes to our bad form. A good transfer window with two CMs, Fullback, CB, RW would completely galvanize the team IMO. But we need to buy players with a long term vision in mind. And I'm very hopeful that is the case now with Ole at the helm eventhough the odds are stacked against him succeeding.
 
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Patrick08

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There's issues obviously that we're hoping will be addressed. Our fullbacks and a lack of pace/intensity in the central midfield areas was detrimental. Herrera and Matic were too slow IMO to provide the energy and drive to provide the foundations for both the attack and defence, Matic more so than Hererra.

Our RW has been a complete non entity for a few years now which also contributes to our bad form. A good transfer window with two CMs, Fullback, CB, RW would completely galvanize the team IMO. But we need to buy players with a long term vision in mind. And I'm very hopeful that is the case now with Ole at the helm eventhough if the odds are stacked against him succeeding.
Well at the moment it doesn't seem that way.
 

RkkMan

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Why are people acting as if our transfer budget will suddenly vanish into thin air after we sign AWB??!!! Who's to say we can't afford him as well as a new CM/DM??!!! It's really not that unrealistic small worries over something insignificant
 
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roonster09

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Yes for sure, they have way better players in the midfeild and ball playing centre backs who give more time for full backs to bomb forward and influence attacking areas while we need money in those areas to have that kind of luxury to even start talking about AWB improvement in final third.

You yourself are admitting he lacks the final pass and deliveries in the box which is most important in a modern attacking full back. As attacking teams want attacking efficiency in final third as they spend most of the time on the ball to attack.

Hoping AWB to suddenly improve in final pass is like Hoping lukaku becomes very good at holding the ball, or fred to replace Herrera with ease and not panic in posession, hoping martial to improve his off the ball attacking runs and become a successful winger, and shaw to be a natural attacking full back or Sanchez to play as a right winger or bailly and lindelof to improve their aerial ability.

I have lost faith in this scouting department and boards credibility who think pogba can play as a deep lying b2b or matic or fred being a right partner for him Instead of fabinho and failing with multiple new signings including with mkh dimaria schneiderlin, matic, Lukaku.

Not saying AWB is a poor player one bit. But I fully expect him to be a more technical prime Antonio valencia as a right back without the efficiency to deliver attacking width and great deliveries in the box. His defensive side of the game is top notch no doubt. But the price is obnoxious and we are being fleeced and paying a PL premium on him whos not even great at attacking. I'd love to be proved wrong on this.

Also if you compare it with mendy they are paying the price for an attacking full back being an attacking team, while we are paying the price for a defensive full back not that great in providing width and efficiency in attacking third. Massive difference between the two full backs.

Would you be okay if we spend 60 m on AWB but don't have the money to spend on CDM and continue with matic? We can't fix everything in one window, but you got to know and have enough wisdom as a footballing club to know the areas where we need immediate surgery and where we can do with pills and bandages and allot funds according to that.

If we don't fix the midfeild issues and keep playing pogba deep of left side of three and not at 10 in a free role we are laying the foundations of him being even more frustrated, running his contact down for Madrid to swoop for him on the cheap just like they did with hazard courtois and will do with erikson to reduce the price. We just can not neglect midfield issues and have the opinion of not fixing it in one window.

Final ball is not be all and end all for a modern day full back. Walker plays for league champions and his final ball is also average and he doesn't offer much in the final third. There are more than one way to play the game, AWB is very good link player. If we lack in other areas then we should address that instead of not signing a very good RB. So we shouldn't sign Meunier too as we dont have good DM and CB to cover his defensive liability?

No hoping AWB to improve is nothing like the players you mentioned. It's not like we are talking about a technically limited player. This is his first season and if talented players remain the same as their first season then we should fire all the coaches. It's something very basic you expect in football, young players to improve when they play with better players and with more experience.

AWB is not a defensive fullback. You have built your whole argument on the misconception that he is not good at the other end. He is very good dribbler, makes driving runs from deep and links up play well. All he is missing is final pass, which is something you expect young player to improve just like how you expect Mendy to improve his goal contributions which is same as AWB's playing in better team and poorer league.

Not sure we will pay 60 million, many reports that deal might be done for 50 million. And yes I would sign a proper RB rather than relying on Young. Improvement with RB is a higher priority than Midfield. Also we are linked with Rabiot who is a free transfer. Ignoring all that, we would have signed any other RB for decent money, so paying 25-30 million on a younger player for long term shouldn't stop us from signing other players, after all we barely spent money last season.

Not sure where you are going with the last point. Signing AWB has nothing to do with Pogba staying or leaving. We can sign Rabiot and other midfielders even after signing AWB.

Just that it won't be missed in the wall of text, you have based your argument on the wrong conclusion you have drawn. Just because AWB is superb defensively doesn't mean he is a dud in the attack. Some of his skills make our attackers look like Bebes.
 

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Yes for sure, they have way better players in the midfeild and ball playing centre backs who give more time for full backs to bomb forward and influence attacking areas while we need money in those areas to have that kind of luxury to even start talking about AWB improvement in final third.

You yourself are admitting he lacks the final pass and deliveries in the box which is most important in a modern attacking full back. As attacking teams want attacking efficiency in final third as they spend most of the time on the ball to attack.

Hoping AWB to suddenly improve in final pass is like Hoping lukaku becomes very good at holding the ball, or fred to replace Herrera with ease and not panic in posession, hoping martial to improve his off the ball attacking runs and become a successful winger, and shaw to be a natural attacking full back or Sanchez to play as a right winger or bailly and lindelof to improve their aerial ability.

I have lost faith in this scouting department and boards credibility who think pogba can play as a deep lying b2b or matic or fred being a right partner for him Instead of fabinho and failing with multiple new signings including with mkh dimaria schneiderlin, matic, Lukaku.

Not saying AWB is a poor player one bit. But I fully expect him to be a more technical prime Antonio valencia as a right back without the efficiency to deliver attacking width and great deliveries in the box. His defensive side of the game is top notch no doubt. But the price is obnoxious and we are being fleeced and paying a PL premium on him whos not even great at attacking. I'd love to be proved wrong on this.

Also if you compare it with mendy they are paying the price for an attacking full back being an attacking team, while we are paying the price for a defensive full back not that great in providing width and efficiency in attacking third. Massive difference between the two full backs.

Would you be okay if we spend 60 m on AWB but don't have the money to spend on CDM and continue with matic? We can't fix everything in one window, but you got to know and have enough wisdom as a footballing club to know the areas where we need immediate surgery and where we can do with pills and bandages and allot funds according to that.

If we don't fix the midfeild issues and keep playing pogba deep of left side of three and not at 10 in a free role we are laying the foundations of him being even more frustrated, running his contact down for Madrid to swoop for him on the cheap just like they did with hazard courtois and will do with erikson to reduce the price. We just can not neglect midfield issues and have the opinion of not fixing it in one window.
I'd be shocked and extremely pleased if he ever reached that level. Antonio Valencia was one of the best wingers in the league for a few years, and even when he moved to RB he retained most of his qualities but his final ball deserted him.
 

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Exactly. These feints and drop of the shoulder etc cannot be done if he didn't have some kind of attacking skills and was just "defensive". I'd imagine we'll see a lot more of it if/when he arrives.
If he arrives pal. Your forgetting Woodward is in charge of transfers.
 

roonster09

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Dennis Irwin was one of the most complete footballers ever to have played and was involved in much more than 'get a cross in' , Infact Fergies use of attacking fullbacks in general was a large reason for the domination of games his teams had over the years
Waited 5 years to make the post and it was a good one. Irwin really was a complete footballer.
 

roonster09

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Exactly. These feints and drop of the shoulder etc cannot be done if he didn't have some kind of attacking skills and was just "defensive". I'd imagine we'll see a lot more of it if/when he arrives.
Yeah, he is so confident on the ball, makes driving runs which unsettles the defense, very good acceleration and also physically very strong player too. He will be very good addition for the team.
 

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Yeah, he is so confident on the ball, makes driving runs which unsettles the defense, very good acceleration and also physically very strong player too. He will be very good addition for the team.
Valencia was all of that under Van Gaal and Mourinho (first season) but he constantly got hammered on here, because he didn't have the end product to go with it.
 

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Valencia was all of that under Van Gaal and Mourinho (first season) but he constantly got hammered on here, because he didn't have the end product to go with it.
Not beating the first man is criminal, AWB doesn't have that issue
 

Skills

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Not beating the first man is criminal, AWB doesn't have that issue
If it doesn't reach your own player, you still end up with the same end result. And according to the stats posted above of his crossing percentage, he might as well be hammering it into his defenders shin 4/5 times.

Most of these issues you can solve with good coaching (making passing and cut back options available, the way Guardiola does). But putting any coaching responsibilities on a manager on this forum is usually off-limits.
 

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Semedo, cancelo

I still think one of the above 3 options are bette than AWB

Cancelo 7 dribbles per game with 70% pass accuracy ! More than stats he is the modern full back with great attacking instincts. I say we shouls get him and Sandro + 100M for Pogba
 

Cassidy

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If it doesn't reach your own player, you still end up with the same end result. And according to the stats posted above of his crossing percentage, he might as well be hammering it into his defenders shin 4/5 times.

Most of these issues you can solve with good coaching (making passing and cut back options available, the way Guardiola does). But putting any coaching responsibilities on a manager on this forum is usually an off-limits.
Which stats above, I saw a success rate of 33%

He made an average of 2.12 crosses per game with a 33% crossing accuracy. Let’s compare once again, with the premier league’s “best” crosser Alexander-Arnold who had the exact same crossing %.
Although I see the correction here:

According to Whoscored, Wan-Bissaka attempted 1.6 crosses per 90, completing just 0.3 for an accuracy of 18.75%. TAA attempted 7.3 crosses per 90, completing 2.1 with a 28.77% accuracy. Luke Shaw attempted 1.8, completing 0.5 per 90 - 27.78% accuracy. Ashley Young attempted 6.9, completing 1.5 per 90 - 21.74%.
Where did that the tweeter get his stats from?
 

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What if Dalot never develop his defensive ability? What if any of our youth fullback never develop more than reserve players.
Dalot is technically good and looks decent in possession and in attack. I'd rather have a fullback with his qualities than one that can defend very well one-on-one but isn't very good in possession - I'm talking about fullbacks in general, not Wan-Bissaka.
What doesn't? AWB is good on the ball and technically very good. His ability to get past the defender is arguably the best in the league (among fullbacks). Only thing he lacks is final pass.
If he is a technical dribbler, then that's a good start. With the money we'd have to pay, you'd want someone that is savvy in possession and probably in the final third too.

That's the risk. Thanks.
£60m for such monumental risk? Some also waved off Lukaku's poor technical ability or lack thereof. This lad isn't joining a team with Guardiola or Klopp and Man Utd fans should know better than most. If he is unable to really prove his fluency, proficiency and IQ in possession from the get-go, then he will flop, not improve.
 

roonster09

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Valencia was all of that under Van Gaal and Mourinho (first season) but he constantly got hammered on here, because he didn't have the end product to go with it.
Valencia started as a winger for ManUtd, played many years as a winger and people's expectations was always inline with winger. I also remember Valencia was rated highly and started to get criticism when he stopped taking on players which was his trademark move before and also he became safe player. Not beating the first man even when he had acres of space was also one of the big reason. When he was at his physical peak, he used to take on players and smash the ball or just float it.

Also since you brought Valencia, when he was 21 (2016-17 season) he he scored 1 and assisted 1 goal playing for Wigan.
2007-08 (22) he contributed to 5 goals playing for Wigan
2008-09 (23) he contributed to 7 goals playing for Wigan
2009-10 - 12 Goals + assists
2010-11 - He was injured for most of the season.
2011-12 - 17 goals + assists

So you can surely see his contribution in final third improving with time and also playing for better team?
 

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Maybe I am missing something... but with Dalot already on our books and Meunier availiable not sure I see the drive to sign AWB.

Not saying he will not be a good player, but isn't Dalot suppose to become a very good player... and that would save us a nice amount in the transfer market?
 

roonster09

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If he is a technical dribbler, then that's a good start. With the money we'd have to pay, you'd want someone that is savvy in possession and probably in the final third too.


£60m for such monumental risk? Some also waved off Lukaku's poor technical ability or lack thereof. This lad isn't joining a team with Guardiola or Klopp and Man Utd fans should know better than most. If he is unable to really prove his fluency, proficiency and IQ in possession from the get-go, then he will flop, not improve.
AWB doesn't lack technical ability though, so can't compare him to Lukaku. He is technical dribbler and also good on the ball. Only thing he lacks is crossing ability, or at least that's something that he didn't do much at Palace. Maybe that's something to do with their tactics too as van Aanholt also attempted just 42 crosses compared to 56 by AWB.
 

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Valencia was all of that under Van Gaal and Mourinho (first season) but he constantly got hammered on here, because he didn't have the end product to go with it.
Unjustly so. Valencia was excellent in both seasons and one of the best right backs going. If Wan-Bissaka gives us a decade of that he will have been a resounding success.
 

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This. They are ready to move on from him and he seems to be the one pushing for a move to a PL club. I've hardly seen his name even mentioned here before these links as a top fullback
I don't rate him as highly as some seem to on the caf, like I didn't rate Aurier as highly too but the reason PSG don't really care about Meunier is because he doesn't fit tactically. Tuchel uses flexible lineups, where for example the 433 can turn into a 343, that's why Kehrer or Marquinhos will almost always be preferred while Bernat/Kurzawa are better than Meunier.
 
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Mcking

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AWB doesn't lack technical ability though, so can't compare him to Lukaku. He is technical dribbler and also good on the ball. Only thing he lacks is crossing ability, or at least that's something that he didn't do much at Palace. Maybe that's something to do with their tactics too as van Aanholt also attempted just 42 crosses compared to 56 by AWB.
That might well be the case with regard to crossing. His defensive and dribbling stats does look good though.
 

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Dennis Irwin was one of the most complete footballers ever to have played and was involved in much more than 'get a cross in' , Infact Fergies use of attacking fullbacks in general was a large reason for the domination of games his teams had over the years
There was a difference between what was expected of a fullback in those days playing in a flat back 4 in comparison to what Wenger did when he arrived in 1996. The Telegraph article I posted in this thread earlier touches upon that with quotes from high profile scouts/Dof to back those claims and explain the difference. As a result, Wenger's Arsenal played the best football in the league according to most neutrals at the time.
 

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There was a difference between what was expected of a fullback in those days playing in a flat back 4 in comparison to what Wenger did when he arrived in 1996. The Telegraph article I posted in this thread earlier touches upon that with quotes from high profile scouts/Dof to back those claims and explain the difference. As a result, Wenger's Arsenal played the best football in the league according to most neutrals at the time.
I'm not sure if it was quite as revolutionary back then tbh. For example, Mourinho then came in and played Gallas at LB. So having a flat defensive back 4 was still a viable strategy.

This is not the case now. Post Dani Alves at Barcelona we've seen the likes of Carvajal, Marcelo, Trent, Robertson, Kimmich, Jordi Alba, Alaba, Sergi Roberto being permanent fixtures in the best teams in the world. It's quite an obvious step change in my opinion.
 

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Then you’d never sign a young player ever thinking like that ffs
I wouldn't pay a record fee for Adama hoping that he'd improve his decision-making on the ball.
Not really. It’s actually a load of shite and clearly he hasn’t watched the guy enough
You're right, seven or eight games aren't enough to make a full judgement. I hope we sign him now so I can get to watch him every week.
 

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I wouldn't pay a record fee for Adama hoping that he'd improve his decision-making on the ball.
You're right, seven or eight games aren't enough to make a full judgement. I hope we sign him now so I can get to watch him every week.
That’s more like it
 
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