Out of the 8 chances Barcelona had against Liverpool away, Messi had the last or second last touch on all of them.
He was good. Sometime’s you’re just unlucky.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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He was good. Sometime’s you’re just unlucky.
Looking forward to how lucky or unlucky he is in copa America with Argentina who always fell short
You are preaching to the choir.
When it comes to GOATs I don't feck around with any hipster nonsense. Air Jordan rules basketball, Pele as far as football is concerned, etc.
Will have to disagree about ignoring the ability in clutch, though. Goes in anything not just sports, doing something you are great at during the most important moment it is required is one of the most important qualities in any profession ever. You have to attach a coefficient that highlights the importance of the stage you are playing on, absolutely cannot disregard that. Can't compare Basketball and Football in that criteria as being clutch in a basketball game isn't just by making the final shot, the real clutch moments are where you have to hold on to the scoreline and get those shots that keep it to a 2-4 point game and not let it slip away, which can be at any time. Unlike football, where you can compress the clutch ability of a player to moments you can count on one hand after a game. So it's not really difficult to say that you'd love to have a particular player in a game with high stakes. Doesn't mean that player has never failed in such a game, but there are definitely players who embrace those situations and are decisive. There are loads of easy examples for that, and that definitely matters when considering the career and legacy of a player.
I wanna congratulate everybody still participating in this debate. I can't begin to comprehend the level of patience and mental discipline needed to still be dissecting the Messi vs Ronaldo topic. I don't know how you guys do it. Cheers to all!!
I would say Pelé is a hipster choice for football GOAT nowadays.
Standard answer: Messi.
Also somewhat standard answer: Maradona.
Soccer answer: Ronaldo.
Hipster answer: Pelé.
You could be correct when talking about stat obsessed nerd infested football forums. Majority of football fans across the world would go for Pele or Maradona.
No the standard answer is Pele and has been for a long time. Only Messi/Barca fans think Messi is the standard answer.
Even most Argentines consider Maradona the better player. If he's not the best in his own country how can he be the best ever.
Messi surpassed Ronaldo's club goals in significantly less games.
Stat wise, Ronaldo doesn't stand a chance.
Beauty wise also, same.
Only way is to twist the stats and narrow it down to areas that suit Ron. Eg. : CL knock out. And then claim that these games are bigger and has exponentially more weightage, as ridiculous as that claim may be .
That's what's being done.
Stat wise, Ronaldo doesn't stand a chance.
Beauty wise also, same.
Only way is to twist the stats and narrow it down to areas that suit Ron. Eg. : CL knock out. And then claim that these games are bigger and has exponentially more weightage, as ridiculous as that claim may be .
That's what's being done.
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Ronaldo would be rated and appreciated more had he not played "EPL". Had he like Messi, moved to La Liga from Portugal, he wouldn't suffer the hatred, biased associated with English pundits and users.
It’s true, one of them even had a meltdown over Trump and defended him and Ronaldo at the same time in this thread.I think a large chunk of the Ronaldo fans in this thread are Americans, who are culturally prone to lionise good looks, athleticism and fetishise stats so I guess it makes sense that they prefer Ronaldo.
They are also prone to use horrific words like homer, clutch and 3PEAT
They don’t realize it, but by saying ”Messi is the best but Ronaldo is the greatest” they’ve admitted defeat already. How can you be the best and not win this thread?
The only way that would be remotely possible would be if we were talking about some flash in the pan who only had 2-3 good years. But Messi has consistently been at his best or close to it for over a decade now. And a very respectable trophy haul to go with it.
No, the standard answer was Maradona/ Pele before Messi/Ronaldo. Do a worldwide poll now, and in all probability even Ronaldo may surpass one of them in votes.
The standard answer between people who love football and have been watching it for a long time is Messi/Pele/Maradona. Most pundits, current and ex football players from the 90s and 00's say its Messi by a far distance. Argentinians say its Maradona because lets face it they could care less what Messi did club-wise.
Most old dudes say its Pele.
Mostly its Messi/Pele/Maradona and in that order too. Some hipsters like to bring up Zidane, CR7, Ronaldinho etc but thats like mostly soccer fans, casual sports fans etc.
Most old dudes say its Pele.
Mostly its Messi/Pele/Maradona and in that order too. Some hipsters like to bring up Zidane, CR7, Ronaldinho etc but thats like mostly soccer fans, casual sports fans etc.
Right, you know that his ex team mates (Rio, Scholes and Roo) think that Leo is better, despite playing with Ronni during arguably the greatest period in the clubs career ( 3 CL finals in 4 years). He was with them when he won his first Balon Dor, yet they claim Messi as better.
Why is that? Is it because they hate him? Do you think they are biased towards Leo, despite playing with Cristiano?
Or maybe, (this might sound controversial) they genuinely think Leo is better.
There doesn't always have to be some controversial or underlying reason as to why people think that Leo is better.
I know it's painful and difficult to accept, but Leo Messi is regarded as the better/ greater of the two by the majority of football fans, ex footballers/ managers, and pundits. This you cannot escape. Many proclaim Messi as being the best ever (at least up there with Diego and Pele). Only a few say the same for Cristiano. Why do you think that is? Of course, they all hate him. You think Diego was a beloved character? Many despised him, yet he is still regarded as one of the best 3 players of all time by many.
You can hang your hat on amount of Balon Dors won but by the end of this year, Leo might have one more and then what will you say? Besides, as has been said many a time, more Balon Dors (or votes in general) doesn't a greater or better player make (Scholes vs Lamps vs Stevie G comes to mind).
Just be thankful that Cristiano has had a great career and is already one of the all-time greats. He's just unfortunately not in the pantheon of the aforementioned two (Pele, Diego) and Leo.
Better, perhaps. Greater, afraid not.
I have no problem with people claiming Messi being the better player or even the best footballer ever. But to be greatest, he has to actually achieve the greatest greatness. Ronaldo is slightly greater in this regards.
Pele greatness - 3 WC (all time record, legacy), "1000" goals (all time record, legacy)
Maradona greatness - won the 86 WC almost singlehandedly (greatest ever legacy). Carry a minor team winning 2 Serie A title, during the time when Serie A is by far the best league in the world (legacy).
Ronaldo greatness - 5 Ballon D'or (all time record), 5 CL (all time record), breaking/holding over 150 records in football (all time record), carry an average Portugal team to win Euro (and NL) (legacy), highest no. of goals/assists in CL (all time record).
Messi greatness - 5 Ballon D'or (all time record), dominate La Liga for over a decade, winning 8 to 10 titles (all time record), highest no. of goals/assists in La Liga (all time record).
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Sorry to burst your bubble but the pinnacle of the sport always was, is and always will be the world cup. Discarding the hardcore fans who appreciate the game at the technical level, no amount of league or champions league greatness is ever going to stand in front of national honour, especially the world cup. People who have no interest in football watch the world cup, winning the world cup makes you an instant hero to an entire nation's population which is far more than any club's fans/league's fans. Similarly, winning the world cup is the greatest moment for any player's life and no amount of league/cl wins can compare to that. Representing your country on the global stage and taking them to the triumph, nothing absolutely comes close to that, and hence the GOATs have always been Pele and Maradona, as both made their countries proud, not just a professional club fanbase. No player ever will trade a world cup medal for any amount of league or cl medals.
Nothing at the world cup has ever matched Maradona's peak at the 1986 World Cup, it wasn't just winning the world cup but the absolute dominance at that stage and with Argentina usually playing as the underdog and going on to win, with him scoring the goal of the century while doing that. Meanwhile Pele has won the cup not once, but three times across a span of 12 years, while being iconic in two of them 12 years apart, deciding a world cup final at the age of 17, and being the architect of what is the greatest national team of all time.
So excuse me for rolling my eyes at someone thinking club football legends like Messi or Cristiano will get idolised over national heroes worshipped across nations. The very fact that Pele, who played half a century ago and Maradona who played quarter a century ago is still put right up there in these discussions, while Messi and Ronaldo are both current players and it remains to be seen whether they withstand the test of time. At the turn of the millennium people swore by the likes of Zidane and Luis Ronaldo, and put them in GOAT debates, and it didn't take a small number of years for them to be replaced by Messi and Ronaldo. No doubt the latter have much greater claims and most importantly stats that would keep their flag flying high, but you have legends like Cruyff, Di Stefano and Platini who in their own right weren't any less than Pele or Maradona, but regardless of their club football greatness, it didn't take much for the GOAT debate to always be between Pele and Maradona. Di Stefano won 5 Champions Leagues in a row, scored an insane amount of goals, was one of the most complete players of all time being all of goalscorer, creator, midfielder rolled into one yet it was in the same era where Pele came along, and within a few years he was a global icon, in the age where football wasn't covered by the media globally. And half a century later, he's still the first name that is taken when talking about greats across the sports - Pele, Mohd. Ali, Jordan, etc. are the ones in the highest pantheon.
So how did Zidane and Fat Ronaldo get deposed so quickly by Messi in the GOAT debate then? Both Zidane and R9 won the WC in spectacular fashion being the best players in their respective teams. By your logic their legacies should be greater than Messi’s.
Messi didn’t even need that long to surpass them. Not later than 2011. And that was by ”just” winning CLs and league titles.
Excellent post.
Fans have a preference to declare what they currently see as GOAT. The difference between the legacy of Platini and Maradona is the world cup.
I wonder how many "Barca" fans will still support Barca after Messi has retired. My point is saying this is most youngsters do this because of peer pressure (like how we got a massive hike after 99) and obv supporting the most successful club's rival makes sense, doesn't it?
So Xavi, Iniesta and Pique are "greater" than Messi? Both of them have 2 euros, a world cup, multiple CL's, two trebies, etc While being key players for their teams btw, and Xaviesta are arguably top 2 spanish players of all time.
I get it now, "greater" is the new heading right? So Messi is the best player of all time, but then you have some players that are "greater", like Xavi, Iniesta, Maradona, CR7, etc?
Ill take it. The best player of all time is Messi, and the GOAT goes to Dani Alves
You are missing the whole point, which makes your post looks stupid. Their individual impact to achieve greatness is not comparable. For example, did they win 5 Ballon D’or (Messi/Ronaldo)? Did they have any individual all time record (Ronaldo/Pelé/Messi) or legacy (Maradona/Pelé)?
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His post looks stupid. Right.
The world cup has a 'glory' aspect, has more historical significance, the casual fan values it more etc. - I get it. But objectively speaking from a footballing perspective, the achievers in world cups doesn't automatically become greater than the non achievers. What we are doing when we compare individual footballers is, comparing their INDIVIDUAL accomplishments at the highest professional level. Quality wise ,it cannot be said that the WC is bigger or more professional than the premier League or CL. So, bringing it into this debate may make sense for the casual fan, but not the thinking or knowledgeable one. The WC argument is just a cop out , and at the root of it, proposes that glamour trumps substance.
What Messi has done individually on a football field, surpasses what any player has ever done individually on a football field at the highest professional level, statistically and otherwise.
Portugal in European tournaments
Before Ronaldo:
- 1984: Semis
- 1988: Did not qualify
- 1992: Did not qualify
- 1996: Quarters
- 2000: Semis
With Ronaldo:
- 2004: Final
- 2008: Quarters
- 2012: Semis
- 2016: Winners
- 2019: Winners
...pretty remarkable when you consider their teams throughout the years. Even in the quarter’s an semi’s, to make it that far in the tournaments when they only had one or two star players on the team.
Before Ronaldo:
- 1984: Semis
- 1988: Did not qualify
- 1992: Did not qualify
- 1996: Quarters
- 2000: Semis
With Ronaldo:
- 2004: Final
- 2008: Quarters
- 2012: Semis
- 2016: Winners
- 2019: Winners
...pretty remarkable when you consider their teams throughout the years. Even in the quarter’s an semi’s, to make it that far in the tournaments when they only had one or two star players on the team.
Why does this even matter?
Historically and in general, the world cup has and really still is used as a barometer of greatness. To be honest it has given a leg up to some greats over others in the pecking order. Cruyff for example gets much closer to Diego if he ends up winning in 74 after such a glorious tournament. But, Messi, and to a lesser degree Cristiano break that rule and have become anomalies. Both, because, in the history of the sport, have played at a higher lever than all of their contemporaries for OVER a decade. Such sustained dominance over the football world has never been seen. France Football reckon they would have given Pele 6 or 7 Balon Dors if the votes were open to non-Europeans, so at a stretch, lets give Pele 6-7 years of dominance. But over 10 years from Cristiano and Leo? Thats mind boggling. Now, that consistency plus his admittedly good international career (still again no defining great tourney like past greats) is enough to seat Cristiano with the greatest of all time. He has done enough to vy with Cruyff for greatest European ever, but the pantheon of Diego and Pele still eludes him.
Leo, on the other hand, transcends. His abilities and qualities as a footballer have literally never been seen in one human before. When he finishes his career (and in most cases already), he will have likely become the greatest goalscorer of all time (will deffo be top 3), one of the best dribblers of all time ( could be argued the best), on the best offensive passers of all time, one of the most creative players of all time, one of the best free kick takers of all time. On a goalscoring AND creative level, the world has never seen a player like Leo, literally like a player from another planet. You only have to look at the reaction of ex footballers when Leo does something superhuman (ie Cristianos old team mate Rio jumping out of his seat and going full mode berzerk time and again). Cristiano rarely elicits that kind of reaction. His goals and records speak for themselves but his footballing qualities, (whilst great), we have seen better (think peak Dinho for example). He simply doesnt transcend.
Sadly, the difference between the two.
Ronaldo fans and their obsession with stats.
They’ve already made up their mind but can’t really justify it, so they scour Wikipedia for an arbitrary stat of the day. Apparently what Portugal did in the 1980’s has relevance for this debate now.
I think for a lot of people all time greatness comes down to more than ability. Most would agree that Messi is the greatest technician the game has ever seen, even Maradona who is top 5 in that regard doesn't have as many strings to his bow as Messi. He was his equal in touch and dribbling, but not in passing or finishing.
Maradona however had something that neither Messi or Ronaldo have which is the maverick personality. He has always been borderline nuts and the way he carried himself on the pitch made him an absolute hero to the fans. He would give anything for his team and was ready to go to war if necessary. His choice to go to Napoli when he probably could have gone to almost any of the major powerhouses of Europe also elevates him in people's eyes.
It's just personal preference after that as to which you value more. The technical ability or the persona of the player. I couldn't compare Pele because it was honestly too long ago to make any kind of rational comparison. Too many variables and changes to the game.
Maradona however had something that neither Messi or Ronaldo have which is the maverick personality. He has always been borderline nuts and the way he carried himself on the pitch made him an absolute hero to the fans. He would give anything for his team and was ready to go to war if necessary. His choice to go to Napoli when he probably could have gone to almost any of the major powerhouses of Europe also elevates him in people's eyes.
It's just personal preference after that as to which you value more. The technical ability or the persona of the player. I couldn't compare Pele because it was honestly too long ago to make any kind of rational comparison. Too many variables and changes to the game.
This is a big reason why I don't care for either of the two. One has all the likability of a speeding ticket, whilst the other has no personality whatsoever.
Can we all just agree, that Lord Bendtner would have surpassed both these guys, had it not been for Wenger?
Not sure you’re completely correct about Maradona. I think his brash and eccentric personality off the pitch didn’t do him any favours at the time. Just as they don’t do him any favours now. He’s respected for his exploits, but other than that he’s mostly seen as a clown you can poke for funny answers and outbursts.
And you know the reason he went to Napoli was because of his mafia connections, right? The Camorra virtually engineered the whole deal. What he did on the pitch for Napoli was great but let’s not pretend he went there out of a desire to ”prove himself at a lesser team” or anything like that.
True but I don't think many people take that into account when they look back with nostalgia. They only remember that he went to Napoli and beat Milan. The Napoli team were also far better man for man than people remember. Time distorts opinions I guess.
It’s ridiculous to claim CL knockout games are bigger games than dead league games against the likes of Betis or Huesca?
How can you be the greatest and not win this thread?
And I do not think Messi is best, not at all
The thing is that most of us who are Ronaldo fans think that he’s #1 but we are happy to admit that it’s not a 100% slam dunk. The Messi fans (not all) however, seem to refuse to even entertain the thought that their lad is not the greatest ever - it’s just that arrogance that irks me. They are almost offended at the very idea that it’s open for debate.How can you be the greatest and not win this thread?
And I do not think Messi is best, not at all
Yet somehow when Messi led Argentina to the WC in the final game, it was a GREAT achievement, never mind the fact that Argentina have never ever failed to qualify for the WC.
Well said, they keep posting those polls as if it proves their point. Since when did anything with about 1/3 of people disagreeing with ‘not debatable’?
Oh, it is debatable. But what is not debatable, is that in the majority of people's opinions across the board (ex footballers, managers, fans) Leo is considered better. Sadly, that is something Cristiano fans cant accept.Well said, they keep posting those polls as if it proves their point. Since when did anything with about 1/3 of people disagreeing with ‘not debatable’?
I like how this thread is full of Newbies. Clearly almost nobody from the main forum actually gives a feck about this any more.
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Let me guess, he's not the one who bring Trump into the discussion, right? I find it funny, people bring Trump into an irrelevant discussion and then somehow it's other people's meltdown for defending him? How does that work?
Also guess who just bring Trump back into this discussion? Not a Ronaldo fan I am sure
"But Messi has consistently been at his best or close to it for over a decade now. And a very respectable trophy haul to go with it." - And Ronaldo didn't have that? His trophy haul is superb, not with 1 club but 2 clubs and his national team too?
Well said. Messi is better for me but I understand if some one think Ronaldo is equal or better. It's narrow mind to think it's not even debatable.
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