Jesus H Christ...
Harry Maguire | Signed
- Thread starter davidmichael
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hence why i can't take "transfer fee" moralising seriously. there are probably 10+ factors that have lead to this hyper inflation and it doesn't help we are in this dire situation. The moralisers on these threads acting like fees should've static for X numbers of years need to either suck up the fact we need to pay these fees or just accept the chuckle brothers, or an academy prospect.
Simple.
Basically this.
We need to build from the bottom first. When we do get better, does anybody really care how much we pay for certain players?
By signing those two we will go into the season with a defense just slightly less shitttt than what we have .
Let the Glaziers overpay , yes . But let them overpay for quality rather than overpriced and over rated English players .
I can't believe that in world football there isn't another defender that's better than Slab head for a fraction of the price quoted.
The only issue is that it's wrong. You don't have to pay for the simple reason that this current market is out of whack, the fees tell you nothing about the quality of players, you have players with roughly the same level going for fees that ranges from 20m to 60m. The key is to evaluate properly otherwise you end up with the likes of Fred and Lukaku. It's important to remember that Van Dijk is an exception more than the rule.
Seems to be a real dearth of talent when it comes to centre backs right now, with the majority of the best settled at top clubs.
There might well be plenty, but it'll be a risk or at best a Lindelöf/Bailly type signing that will take 12 months or not work out at all.
Any established player is either not at good at Slabhead, or hasn't proved himself so far to be as good.
Would definitely accept that bet, see no reason whatsoever why Lindelöf would be replaced.
Lindelöf isn't slow?
Yeah but we were the only club paying that kind of fee for Lukaku, that's his point. You're saying "you have players with roughly the same level going for fees that ranges from 20m to 60m" but aren't most of those examples either gambles/risks a la Lindelöf/Bailly, or players that aren't interested in joining us because there are better options for them?
Yet all we are working off is either second hand whispers or briefed information from shaky journos that paints a picture that our club has likely scouted 1-4 options in a graded order. They aren't looking outside those options. They have likely evaluated De Ligt/Koulibaly as top tier, Maguire down from that, Alerweirald down from that.
If you can't get De Ligt/Kou, they've likely moved on to maguire. Now that they are at Maguire level, they aren't going to then go re-scout players around the same ability and try and make a "good deal". When have we ever heard of transfer targeting being done like that by our club?
You're right, transfer fees say nothing about the quality of players. Our manager and club have likely shortlisted a bunch of players. They then go to clubs and are quoted these fees.
Hence, you either pay stupid fees for the players you want, play the chuckle brothers, or put an academy prospect next to lindelof. There are no other options based on the limited understanding we have of the clubs policy.
Or we buy a Bailly/Lindelöf/Rojo/Blind type and chance it again.
I'd much prefer we actually replaced Vidic or Rio properly after 6 fecking years.
but even then, they were likely bought because of some form of shortlisting process. they were players we wanted. JPRouve seems to be implying (correct me if i'm wrong), well if we get down to Maguire on the list and is too expensive, there are similar players in at a range of prices. All valid points. But that's not how the process works as far as i've been lead to believe from numerous interviews etc etc. If we feel that Maguire is way too expensive, the club then moves down to the next target, they don't re-scout a whole bunch of new players around the same ability level as the player they missed out on.
Miss target > next on the list > Miss target > next on the list > player signed.
Am i wrong? But i've always thought this is exactly how our transfers go?
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Bring in Toby and Maggie for £100m and put the chuckle brothers in the ressies to help us get promoted again in the u23s
And my point is that we shouldn't do it while he clearly stated that we should accept it, in my opinion his point of view is extremely bad, he is basically justifying our current incompetence. Personally my issue with Maguire is exactly the same than I had with Lukaku, while they are above average players I don't think that they are good enough to justify their fee long term and we will quickly find ourselves in a situation where we have to replace an extremely expensive player, which as we are seeing now is a very effective way to waste years and money.
We should never spend big because we are desperate, it should be because we are convinced that the target is perfect, even if it's not actually the case. When desperation is part of the conversation like it is in this thread then people should realize that something is properly wrong in their evaluation of the player.
People won't agree with me but I see him as this generation version of Jagielka/Distin, for 30m I would be glad to have him but not for VVD level of investment.
Ahh see this is where we might have got the wires crossed. I'm not saying spend the money because we are desperate, i'm saying if Ole wants Maguire/Koulibaly then pay the 80 or 133 million pounds. We can't moralise over fees if these are the shortlisted candidates.
If Ole and Ed want those players, i'm saying the fan base has to give up on transfer fee moralising. If they don't want to pay those fees, then either stick with the chuckle brothers or risk an academy player are likely our only options.
Hes better than what we have so Id be happy enough if we got him as it seems we wont get De Ligt or anyone of that level.
Couldnt care less about the fee. Gave up years ago trying to rationlise or understand transfer fees. It is what it is.
Couldnt care less about the fee. Gave up years ago trying to rationlise or understand transfer fees. It is what it is.
How far off Maguire is Tarkowski? I like Maguire but a bidding war vs City is a bad move. I wonder if we should be looking for another option.
80m for Maguire is the last option I'd go for.
But it's not moralising, people are mainly disagreeing with the worth of the player in relation with his level and long term impact on the team. People aren't that bothered about De Ligt's fee and I don't think that Koulibaly is the equivalent of Maguire.
He is. Ideally, you'd need some bit of pace in central defence.
Completely Valid. I just don't think Ole or Ed see it that way.
I’m with you here, think JP has completely misunderstood the point.
Of course we should only overpay if we are convinced the player is the right one, he must be someone on a very short shortlist of players.
It appears Maguire is target number 3 on our CB list and that’s exactly where I’d have him also. Just because JP or anyone might not agree with that list (as I didn’t with Lukaku), it doesn’t mean it’s ”wrong” as such.
No doubt Lukaku was a player Mourinho desperately wanted, but I’m hoping it’s a transfer committee that has decided on the RB & CB shortlist this Summer and not one man, as that’s where our previous issues have arisen, not where JP thinks.
We could get defenders who are as good as him for half of that price. Maguire isn't so good that we have to break the world record.
Who @Mcking ?
I’m really interested to know the CB’s as good as Maguire that we could get for 37-40m?
It’s also your opinion, and JP shares it. However, what do you both say if the transfer committee and Ole has decided on a 3 man shortlist for a commanding ball playing CB that they are convinced will be a great player for us, in order:
De Ligt, Koulibaly, Maguire
De Ligt choses Barca, Koulibaly gets priced out at 130m. Should we not pursue target number 3 and get him if we feel he’s within the club’s extremely large budget? That’s a question for both of you, regardless of your own personal opinion on the player?
This has very little to do with what I said or what WPMUFC initially said. I clearly talked about the relation between fee and player's level, I didn't talk about the list nor did I suggest that it was a one man decision. So, don't talk for me.
There are plenty, Maguire is no VVD he’s not going to transform our defence or be anything like as good despite costing more money. He’s also quite a big risk and not suited to playing a higher line if that’s what Ole does want to do.
We’re not going to compete for the title next year so we can afford to develop a player ourselves rather than be desperate and buy Maguire or Koulibaly for ridiculous fees or persist with all dross we currently have.
He's not slow at all. I'm not saying he's a speed demon or anything like that but he's definitely not slow. He doesn't get outpaced or outran often, certainly no slower than Citys centre halves for example.
And “player’s level” is something based solely on your own opinion.
Who are we to decide that a fee is too much is a transfer committee decides this is one of their top targets and the fee is within budget?
That’s the point, it becomes a huge issue if it’s one man deciding (Mourinho) as you can end up lumbered with players a new manager may not want in his system. I’m not convinced on AWB, much more convinced on Maguire but if the transfer committee consider him RB target number one and the fee is within budget, damn right they should push it through.
Which is the point, our opinions about the transfer as fans.
This place seems particularly argumentative the last couple of days, even more than usual.
Let’s take a step back...
No, the point was, if the club have identified Maguire as a top target, then they should spend, even if they have to spend 40% more due to negotiating in a position of weakness.“JPRouve” said:
De Ligt, Koulibaly and Maguire are not of the same quality, and we have to pay what we think is a suitable price for a player of Maguire's level. If none of De Ligt, Koulibaly and Maguire could be gotten for suitable prices relative to their quality and the market, then other options should be considered.
As for other defenders we could get ahead of Maguire, half of the price does not necessarily mean £40m. The likes of Manolas has been quoted for prices below £40m. We could get a defender better than Manolas for 10m-20m above that. I'm convinced that we've got some good scouts beyond the tunnel vision. Maguire isn't so good imo
First don't cut posts and change the context and secondly the quote clearly states the conversations in this thread and my opinion.
He isn't the slowest centreback in the league, but he is slow for a defender. Pairing him with Maguire would make it even worse.
So you’ve got one name and it’s a guy who’s ”meh” on the ball?
Roma would push us over 50mil for him by the way.
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He isn't slow for a defender ffs
You'd have had a fecking heart attack watching Chelsea under Mourinho when they had Terry & Carvalho at the heart of the defence.
The entire debate has been about overspending for our top targets because of the position we are in, the only one attempting to change the context here is you JP because you have mixed in your own feeling and valuation regarding Maguire.
It started with you saying (not cutting here):
You started mixing in other players that are better and cheaper, but we were never talking about that as it’s fan opinion based. We have simply been debating that United are likely to have to overspend to get their top targets. The other choice is to gamble on a player who’s not a top target and then we’re back doing another patchwork Bailly/Rojo/Blind/Lindelöf job, or we gamble on the academy.
So please list these centre backs that we can pick up for 50-60 million.
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