Do we have a rat or are we seeing the start of something worse?

RedRover

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If any of it is remotely true (which I expect it probably isn't), then it would highlight the issues with the players. Whether the managers approach is the right one is nothing to do with the players and frankly, irrelevant at this stage of the season. The club have appointed their man and he needs to be backed. If that means players being moved on then so be it.

The players should be ashamed of how hey performed for most of last season. Over entitled, underperforming and frankly, not as good as they think they are.

Hopefully he is running the legs off them in pre-season. Might equate to a bit more effort on the pitch.

As for the press report. So what. United are click bait. The players and the club overall should be used to it by now.
 

flappyjay

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The running part is not news to anyone as Ole did say they would come early to come work on their stamina for his pressing tactics. This to me seems like media rubbish. But it's easier for everyone to scream mole though.
 

DomesticTadpole

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If any of it is remotely true (which I expect it probably isn't), then it would highlight the issues with the players. Whether the managers approach is the right one is nothing to do with the players and frankly, irrelevant at this stage of the season. The club have appointed their man and he needs to be backed. If that means players being moved on then so be it.

The players should be ashamed of how hey performed for most of last season. Over entitled, underperforming and frankly, not as good as they think they are.

Hopefully he is running the legs off them in pre-season. Might equate to a bit more effort on the pitch.

As for the press report. So what. United are click bait. The players and the club overall should be used to it by now.
The problem United have is as usual if the media get hold of this they will make something out of nothing. Pogba has not been there in pre-season until now, Herrera is not there, so of course they have to find a foreign player to blame for everything, when the usual suspects, all English are still there. They have only been back a week, don't suppose it would dawn on them that he might be going to do ball work with them etc. I don't know how the poor darlings cope with life.
 

roonster09

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It depends on how and when you do it. There are many coaches who even stopped any sort of exercises without the ball. Others don't practise for more than 90 minutes at all. The idea that more running and exercise leads to better results is not true. There is such a thing as too much exercise. While I'm not going to accuse OGS of that, as I don't know enough about him, as a fan of the club I would pay close attention to what the players seem to think. They have seen enough coaches to be able to judge the methods of OGS and if they are skeptical, so would I be.
The idea that players are lazy and the coach needs to kick them in the ass, is just stupid talk from the fans.
Well players are not lazy but they are under prepared as evidenced by being last in every fitness thing, 20th in distance covered in last 3 seasons, out sprint by opponents in every game except few (first 10-15 games under Ole) and embarrassing sprint numbers against West Ham.

Well the report is just something Ogden pulled out of his arse as Ole said they worked on technical and tactical part.

Also double/triple session is very common in preseason. Klopp, Conte, Poch's fitness methods are even tougher as reported by various journalists. Klopp himself said fitness is the key in unlocking potential and he straight away went with triple sessions. Chelsea and Spurs players talked how working so much on fitness helped them in the season.
 

charlenefan

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"One source has told ESPN FC that there were concerns within the squad's foreign contingent as early as February -- when Solskjaer was still unbeaten in his role as caretaker-manager -- that the approach under the former Cardiff City manager was "too British" and lacking in continental expertise. The same source has claimed that last week's training regime was "just running, running, running," with players forced to do double sessions on their first week back in preseason following Solskjaer's decision to bring the squad back as early as July 1 to start preparations for the new campaign."

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/clu...f-solskjaers-issues-for-man-uniteds-preseason
Liverpool/Klopps british style doesn't seem to be working out too badly for them. If this is true then I say tell the foreign contingent (bound to be Pogba, Martial et al) to shut the feck up or feck off
 

DomesticTadpole

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Well players are not lazy but they are under prepared as evidenced by being last in every fitness thing, 20th in distance covered in last 3 seasons, out sprint by opponents in every game except few (first 10-15 games under Ole) and embarrassing sprint numbers against West Ham.

Well the report is just something Ogden pulled out of his arse as Ole said they worked on technical and tactical part.
I just get the impression that some would rather do weights and get their bodies buffed rather than actually work on their stamina. Got to look good when they take their shirts off.
 

roonster09

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I just get the impression that some would rather do weights and get their bodies buffed rather than actually work on their stamina. Got to look good when they take their shirts off.
Tbf to them, Ole said everyone followed the fitness program that was assigned to them and everyone is back in good condition. Look at shaw and compare his pics to last season. So i would assume this is just journalist doing his thing rather than any truth in this.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Go ahead and name them.
They never do. It's the usual 'a source'. As I said Pogba wasn't even there, so how could he have said something about the training. Yet it will be something some will try to beat him round the head with. More likely is he is making it all up.
 

JohnnyKills

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Isn't running what everyone does at the start of pre-season? Isn't that the whole point?

Hope they made Martial do double sessions.
 

Gasolin

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It depends on how and when you do it. There are many coaches who even stopped any sort of exercises without the ball. Others don't practise for more than 90 minutes at all. The idea that more running and exercise leads to better results is not true. There is such a thing as too much exercise. While I'm not going to accuse OGS of that, as I don't know enough about him, as a fan of the club I would pay close attention to what the players seem to think. They have seen enough coaches to be able to judge the methods of OGS and if they are skeptical, so would I be.
The idea that players are lazy and the coach needs to kick them in the ass, is just stupid talk from the fans.
Yes, some of the training is like that. But Pep, Klopp, Pochetino all focus on the fitness level and if you look at how Ole likes to play with Molde, he's a Pep copy with some slight differences so I would not be surprised that he believes fitness is important. It means ultimately that without a top level fitness, they cannot focus on other areas of the football.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Tbf to them, Ole said everyone followed the fitness program that was assigned to them and everyone is back in good condition. Look at shaw and compare his pics to last season. So i would assume this is just journalist doing his thing rather than any truth in this.
I was talking more about previous years, where some have gained a bit too much muscle yet are out of breath after a 10 yard sprint.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Yes, some of the training is like that. But Pep, Klopp, Pochetino all focus on the fitness level and if you look at how Ole likes to play with Molde, he's a Pep copy with some slight differences so I would not be surprised that he believes fitness is important. It means ultimately that without a top level fitness, they cannot focus on other areas of the football.
Of course fitness matter, that is why our lot are knackered after half-time. It's a bloody long walk down that tunnel you know.
 

roonster09

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I was talking more about previous years, where some have gained a bit too much muscle yet are out of breath after a 10 yard sprint.
Yeah, I think that was something to do with manager. Team's fitness depends on manager. We were among top 5 in distance covered under Van Gaal and then were in 20th position under Jose in all 3 seasons.

Chelsea were outside top 10 in distance covered under Jose and then were 8th and 4th under Conte.

It's something that depends on how coach wants to set his team up.
 

roonster09

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Yes, some of the training is like that. But Pep, Klopp, Pochetino all focus on the fitness level and if you look at how Ole likes to play with Molde, he's a Pep copy with some slight differences so I would not be surprised that he believes fitness is important. It means ultimately that without a top level fitness, they cannot focus on other areas of the football.
Don't think there is a top manager who don't think fitness is very important.

Just as an example from Klopp
Everything you do is based around physical potential and what you do in preseason is key to that
 

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The running complaint is an irrelevance and totally discredits the story.

But were our foreign players to be more concerned about the clubs direction with transfers, like ignoring some excellent European talents who are available this summer in favour of British "grit", that would be far more believable.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Yeah, I think that was something to do with manager. Team's fitness depends on manager. We were among top 5 in distance covered under Van Gaal and then were in 20th position under Jose in all 3 seasons.

Chelsea were outside top 10 in distance covered under Jose and then were 8th and 4th under Conte.

It's something that depends on how coach wants to set his team up.
Think Jose likes his beefcakes. In the past only our CB's were sturdy chaps, most of the rest of our team were pretty normal build but with lots of energy.
 

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The thread isn't about if the team need to run or whether other managers want their players to run in training.

Its about if there is a rat or something worse descending on the club.

Given the current state of affairs I suspect its something worse.
 

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Well players are not lazy but they are under prepared as evidenced by being last in every fitness thing, 20th in distance covered in last 3 seasons, out sprint by opponents in every game except few (first 10-15 games under Ole) and embarrassing sprint numbers against West Ham.

Well the report is just something Ogden pulled out of his arse as Ole said they worked on technical and tactical part.

Also double/triple session is very common in preseason. Klopp, Conte, Poch's fitness methods are even tougher as reported by various journalists. Klopp himself said fitness is the key in unlocking potential and he straight away went with triple sessions. Chelsea and Spurs players talked how working so much on fitness helped them in the season.
Conditional deficits can very well be a consequence of over training as well. I have a hard time believing, that a team that was managed by Mourinho, would struggle in that regard and complain about nothing. These guys have worked with some of the best coaches in the world and especially Mou, as much as I hate his football, is known for his expertise in that regard. So in a discussion about these things, I would strongly lean towards the players, instead of OGS, who has absolutely nothing to show for himself on this level. And yes, practicing multiple times a day is somewhat normal, especially in preseason. But again, it depends how you do it. If your players are just constantly exercising, they'll be completely worn out at the end of the season and injuries should become an issue.
 

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The problem with PL-pre seasons is that they are to short to make any real difference to the conditioning and stamina of the players. Our problem is that we have leading players in the squad that are not built for high-tempo football to begin with.
Double sessions during a months pre-season are not going to make Lukaku, Matic, Pogba and Martial something else than what they are today. If you really want to upgrade the conditioning of the players it needs to be done over a one year-period at least, and even one year of hard training will not make Lukaku or Matic road runners.
Its going to be a "process" and it has to be combined with recruiting players that are suited for a high-tempo game, which OGS actually seem to be doing from the small evidence we have so far. Liverpool as much as I hate to say it has done their recruiting very well considering the game that they are playing.
If we think that the current squad will be majorly upgraded in this regard just from 4-6 weeks of tough training, we are deluding ourselves. Does not mean that its not the right thing to do of course. I hope we get at least two players in at midfield who fits the profile. Bruno Fernandes is one.
But the squad needs to be reshaped over the next two years especially in midfield if this is going to work.
 

DomesticTadpole

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The thread isn't about if the team need to run or whether other managers want their players to run in training.

Its about if there is a rat or something worse descending on the club.

Given the current state of affairs I suspect its something worse.

Like what? Be gentle with me please.:([/QUOTE]
 

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Conditional deficits can very well be a consequence of over training as well. I have a hard time believing, that a team that was managed by Mourinho, would struggle in that regard and complain about nothing. These guys have worked with some of the best coaches in the world and especially Mou, as much as I hate his football, is known for his expertise in that regard. So in a discussion about these things, I would strongly lean towards the players, instead of OGS, who has absolutely nothing to show for himself on this level. And yes, practicing multiple times a day is somewhat normal, especially in preseason. But again, it depends how you do it. If your players are just constantly exercising, they'll be completely worn out at the end of the season and injuries should become an issue.
Jose's team play defensive football where distance covered is less, he trains them accordingly. Under him we were 20th in distance covered in 3 seasons and before him we were in top 3/5

Chelsea were outside top 10 under Jose and they were 8th and 4th under Conte.

Also there is nothing to side here. It's just one more crap story from crap journalist. When more reputed journalist reports this, then there is something to side with.

Overworking in preseason is nothing new. It's done by Klopp, Conte, Poch and almost every manager who wants his team to work hard and press.

Edit: Also regarding Ole, he has worked under GOAT and some of the finest coaches that these players can only dream of working under. His experience >>>> any player's experience we have.
 

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Yes, some of the training is like that. But Pep, Klopp, Pochetino all focus on the fitness level and if you look at how Ole likes to play with Molde, he's a Pep copy with some slight differences so I would not be surprised that he believes fitness is important. It means ultimately that without a top level fitness, they cannot focus on other areas of the football.
Very well possible. Yet OGS wouldn't be the first coach who fails to adapt his methods to new surroundings. Your league is about the most intense league there is. You play a shitload of games. The same methods he used at Molde won't work for you guys. The wear and tear is just much heavier. And as you mentioned them, Klopp and Pep both struggled in this regard as well in their first seasons.
I think the English mentality is an issue here. It's somewhat similar to the German approach. The fans want to see the players work hard,which I get, bu that's not always the right thing to do. Sometimes it's better to give them the day off. Which Mou often did, also after defeats, just to be criticied for it. But the truth is, he was right to do it. It never sits well with the fans, eypecially when things don't run smoothly.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Jose's team play defensive football where distance covered is less, he trains them accordingly. Under him we were 20th in distance covered in 3 seasons and before him we were in top 3/5

Chelsea were outside top 10 under Jose and they were 8th and 4th under Conte.

Also there is nothing to side here. It's just one more crap story from crap journalist. When more reputed journalist reports this, then there is something to side with.

Overworking in preseason is nothing new. It's done by Klopp, Conte, Poch and almost every manager who wants his team to work hard and press.
United were always full of energy, harassing and breaking forward quickly. Want them to get back to that sort of thing. Not sit back. Although we had a magnificent defence then and a great midfield and forwards that teams were terrified of.
 

roonster09

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Very well possible. Yet OGS wouldn't be the first coach who fails to adapt his methods to new surroundings. Your league is about the most intense league there is. You play a shitload of games. The same methods he used at Molde won't work for you guys. The wear and tear is just much heavier. And as you mentioned them, Klopp and Pep both struggled in this regard as well in their first seasons.
I think the English mentality is an issue here. It's somewhat similar to the German approach. The fans want to see the players work hard,which I get, bu that's not always the right thing to do. Sometimes it's better to give them the day off. Which Mou often did, also after defeats, just to be criticied for it. But the truth is, he was right to do it. It never sits well with the fans, eypecially when things don't run smoothly.
Yeah if only Ole played some 10+ years in PL and knew about PL.

Klopp and PL struggled and built on it.
 

roonster09

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United were always full of energy, harassing and breaking forward quickly. Want them to get back to that sort of thing. Not sit back. Although we had a magnificent defence then and a great midfield and forwards that teams were terrified of.
Yeah, want us to play with tempo and intensity.
 

HTG

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Jose's team play defensive football where distance covered is less, he trains them accordingly. Under him we were 20th in distance covered in 3 seasons and before him we were in top 3/5

Chelsea were outside top 10 under Jose and they were 8th and 4th under Conte.

Also there is nothing to side here. It's just one more crap story from crap journalist. When more reputed journalist reports this, then there is something to side with.

Overworking in preseason is nothing new. It's done by Klopp, Conte, Poch and almost every manager who wants his team to work hard and press.

Edit: Also regarding Ole, he has worked under GOAT and some of the finest coaches that these players can only dream of working under. His experience >>>> any player's experience we have.
Distance covered is a pretty meaningless stat, in my opinion. Much more important is, wether the team can go through with their style throughout the whole game, without looking like they are going to drop dead by minute 80. Mourinho teams usually do that. That's all you need to know, really. He also seems to manage injuries well. Also, you're United. You should be amongst the teams covering the least distance. Your opponents should do the running.
And I really doubt that methods used by SAF 12 years ago, will work that well in todays game. So if OGS is applying that same methods today, you guys have some huge issues.
 

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I hope this is true and the spoilt feckers are being ragged all over the training ground. Fitness was a absolute shambles last season. You are being paid a fortune so suck it up and feel the pain.
 

roonster09

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Distance covered is a pretty meaningless stat, in my opinion. Much more important is, wether the team can go through with their style throughout the whole game, without looking like they are going to drop dead by minute 80. Mourinho teams usually do that. That's all you need to know, really. He also seems to manage injuries well. Also, you're United. You should be amongst the teams covering the least distance. Your opponents should do the running.
And I really doubt that methods used by SAF 12 years ago, will work that well in todays game. So if OGS is applying that same methods today, you guys have some huge issues.
Not sure what more to say, "we are united, we don't run" when we were one of the hardest working team under SAF.

Maybe I'm getting the impression that you are just clutching at straws with these now.
 

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"One source has told ESPN FC that there were concerns within the squad's foreign contingent as early as February -- when Solskjaer was still unbeaten in his role as caretaker-manager -- that the approach under the former Cardiff City manager was "too British" and lacking in continental expertise. The same source has claimed that last week's training regime was "just running, running, running," with players forced to do double sessions on their first week back in preseason following Solskjaer's decision to bring the squad back as early as July 1 to start preparations for the new campaign."

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/clu...f-solskjaers-issues-for-man-uniteds-preseason

Whether the source is a player or a players agent or just made up from a lying journalist, this is a bit of a worry. Not that the player is running a lot or that the approach is to "British". That bit, I am fine with. I remember similar reports on Klopp a few years back. It is also evidently a part of the approach of Pochettino and Pep. Teams that play proactive football needs to run. A lot! We used too as well. As Pep said in a Sky-interview, you dont run, you dont play. There is not much "too British" about it.

I'm not that worried about the rat either. Lack of loyalty is an issue, but I'm sure Solskjaer will get rid of the players with the wrong mentality. We knew that there are players who lack the right attitude and commitment. I'm actually amused if the players are complaining about too much running. They have a few kilometers to make up for, to say the least.

What worries me is the agenda of the journalist. I have felt for some time that Ogden would be one of the first to have a go at Solskjaer. I saw an interview a while back where he was extremely critical of Solskjaer without managing to explain why (he was, of course, very pro in March). While he strikes me as one of these headless chicken journalists who will be a turncoat, I worry that there is more too it. This is usually how it starts and the reason I feel strongly about it is the angle. This criticism came from nowhere and it is unwarranted. He is having a go at Solskjaer for making the players run too much. For the first week of pre-season! And he is trying to put a label on him based on it. It is ridiculous!

I can only imagine how this will develop when he actually starts making a few mistakes this season (even Ferguson did!). Last season we saw how success breeds success. We have too many times the past few years how the opposite can also be the case. Journalists play their parts in reinforcing trends and articles like this might not matter much at this point in time. But it might be a seed and if we come through a tough patch it might grow and eventually hurt the focus and moral of the team. We can not underestimate the importance of having a group of players who believe in the work they are doing compared to a group who dont.

Ferguson famously said "stand behind your managers". The quote can be misused and I don't think Ferguson would want the fans to stand behind the manager "no matter what". But I do think this is what he was talking about. He knew all too well how important it is to control the media and the narrative they create. Because in the end, it is likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and consequently the truth. We should never accept that journalists have a go at the manager in an unwarranted manner like this.

Usually it is hard to spot and agenda and an angle. At this point of the season it is easier and I felt this was an obvious one. I would appreciate if people in here could contribute to spotting and highlighting similar agendas from journalists. Maybe in this thread (might need a better headline, then?)?
I think this is a great post, and a nice starting point to discuss a topic that often gets trivialised.

You see this on this forum all the time, most people have strong emotions but not all have the heart or brain to express it. Phrases and generalisations gets repeated as some sort of relief which reinforces and creates further agendas. Sadly, a lot of general opinions formed is often in the hands of these journalists who literally feeds of creating negativity to then get money from running headlines. You don't need a tinfoil hat to legitimately be frustrated about United, but a lot of the negativity could be avoided also if people woke up a bit to some of the stuff the media comes out with.

I agree with the OP, it might seem trivial at first, but give it a few months and I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty crazy article like this suddenly get reread as the straight gospel.

I think it is funny how journalists read these forums to see the most aggravating concerns from fans, and reinforces this throughout their articles.
 

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Since SAF the club has been on the slide. He's probably an impossible act to follow and there were always going to be issues but the board have turned the club into a sacking club and made some terrible signings via an array of different managers. If you are going to sack your managers on regular basis you need to have a transfer strategy that rescources a functioning team. A Director of football or whatever label you want to put on that position is a must and United still don't seem to have taken that on board. The Glazers just seem to be happy with Woodward raking in the millions to pay off, or not, the debt.

Ole could prove me wrong but I don't think the managers turnstile has stopped spinning just yet and to be honest it's hard to be impressed with the new signings and Pogba's and Lukaku's agents bad mouthing the club at any given opportunity.

It just seems to have become the norm for the media to be putting out bad news stories about Utd. Sky sports news was yesterday scrolling bad news about Pogba and Lukaku all day.

This wasn't always the case and I can't see an end to it.

Sorry guys.
 

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Wouldn't be too worried about the article, I didn't see any articles reporting that our foreign contingent had issues back during that 10 game winning run following Oles arrival. The player providing this information must be new to preseason too as "just running, running, running" is how preseason training starts off for most teams. The journalist must have run out of ideas for transfer rumors for the day decided to write up some preseason rumors instead.
 

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Not sure what more to say, "we are united, we don't run" when we were one of the hardest working team under SAF.

Maybe I'm getting the impression that you are just clutching at straws with these now.
No, it's simple logic. As a top team, you play more games than most of the teams you play against. So you either find ways to win, without overpowering every opponent you meet, or you'll find yourself falling of a cliff at the end of the season, because your players are completely out of breath by then. That's what Klopp had to adapt to at Liverpool. You can't outrun three opponents a week for the whole season. That's why they now have the most possession behind City. They still do a at lot of intense running, but especially against smaller teams, they have learned to take the foot off the gas pedal and save some energy.
The prem is a marathon, not a sprint. If you don't have the squad depth to outrun everyone every week, which you don't, you need to play smart, not wild.
City can do it. But they have incredible depth throughout.