Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Cal?

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This ladies and gentlemen is what some are reduced to when they cant provide evidence of what they speak.
If you cant back up your points with factual evidence, then what is the point of this thread?
Just say that the sky is green.
How about you back up where I ever said being decisive is the only factor in determining football greatness?
Do you not get bored of debating this? Why do you care so much.
Some times, that's why I disappear from this thread for long periods at a time.
He’s just a pretender, he’ll fade away soon enough like @Snake Plissken aka snakepiss did.
Probably, snakepiss disappeared ever since Messi started bottling CL QF after QF, I'm surprised he didn't reappear for a few weeks this year.
 

Cal?

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If the better you are at football, the more weight your football options have then aren’t you saying your own opinion is worth feck all when compared to the football gurus that are Pele or Maradona?

If you think Messi’s the best player ever and that the better someone is at football, the more weight their opinion has... doesn’t the fact Messi’s put Ronaldo at the same level as himself several different times mean you can’t actually think he’s better?

It’s such bad logic.

Most of the top players barely even watch football.
 

RedRonaldo

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If its the same as Cristiano being compared to Pele then why dont you hear much of in actuality? How many people compare Cristiano to Pele?
And if your analogy about Diego and Platini is true, then also why is Platini virtually never compared to Pele, despite being compared to Diego very often in the 80s?
All time greats playing in the same era will always be compared. This alone doesn't signify where both players are seen in the larger context. Ive just given you a very clear example of this and youve failed to address it.
To be fair Messi has always been compared to Maradona or Ronaldo. But people don't always compare Messi with Pele. They have nothing much in common to compare, except both are South American and both are GOAT. Pele most glorious moment is for his country and in WC, Messi most glorious moment is for his club and in La Liga. Not the best comparison to make. Its like comparing Pele with Di Stefano. Surely during the 50s and 60s, the 2 top GOAT is probably Pele and Di Stefano, and people probably compared them alot in the very old days.

The most compared footballer ever is probably:

1. Maradona vs Pele (2 GOAT from 2 different era from 2 biggest rival country in South America, the greatest career ever vs the greatest peak ever, the most successful player ever vs the most talented player ever)

2. Messi vs Ronaldo (2 GOAT from same era, from 2 biggest rival football club in Spain/Europe, and one of the greatest rivalry in whole of world sports for over a decade, and also one of the most toxic discussion in global internet. They are the biggest ever rival in Ballon D'or too, every stats/goals/trophies/individual honours/records/success of theirs are almost identical/comparable, which is not seen in any era)

3. Cruyff vs Beckenbauer (2 GOAT from same era, from 2 rival European country, one of the greatest rivalry in football, both won European Cup 3 times, both won Ballon D'or multiple times, both revolutionalize football in their unique style/position (libero vs total football), and they were even competing against each other in WC final match, King vs King to take the WC, imagine that)

4. Messi vs Maradona (2 GOAT from 2 different era, very similar type of players from same country, both scored wonder goals after dribbling past several players, both intentionally use their hand to score a goal at one point, both very short hence low centre of gravity, both are regarded as most talented player in the world ever)

5. Maradona vs Platini (2 of the best midfielder/GOAT in the same era, playing in the same league too during mid-80s, one singlehandedly won the WC and is most talent player ever, the other plays like the King of football who won 3 Ballon D'or in a row. One shamelessly wasted/spend his life overdose with drugs, the other shamelessly make/spend his money from corruption.
 
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Gehrman

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Personally I don't there is a greatest of all time in football. There is just a few who were the greatest of their generation and all time. Football is too much of a team sport to have a player who's undisputably the best of all time.
 

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What does that have to do with your original point? If ronaldo is being compared to messi and messi to pele it's the same as ronaldo being compared to pele. It's the transitive property.

Ironically the difference between platini and maradona is the same as the difference between messi and maradona.
Yup. Maradona is to Messi what Platini was to him.
 

Filipe

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in my opinion it's disrespectful to Messi to compare him to any other footballer ( Active or retired). He's levels above everyone else.
 

Daysleeper

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Alex Morgan right on the money :eek:

Just like many other footballers, coaches and pundits, Morgan was asked for her verdict on the Barcelona talisman and the Juventus ace.

"I would have to say Messi," the US co-captain said.

"He's just so much better... He's a level higher than any other player I watch.

"He's a really exciting player to watch."

http://www.sportbible.com/football/...-and-ronaldo-in-2015-20190708?source=facebook
 

Peyroteo

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Media resurfacing 5 year old quotes from Alex Morgan 2 days after Messi's Argentina finished third in the Copa America :lol:

Can't wait to read all the articles about Marta's thoughts from 7 years ago in the next page.
 

DoneDaDa

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Personally I don't there is a greatest of all time in football. There is just a few who were the greatest of their generation and all time. Football is too much of a team sport to have a player who's undisputably the best of all time.
Ding ding ding

This is the right answer no such thing as the best footballer ever.
 

Tostao_80

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If the better you are at football, the more weight your football options have then aren’t you saying your own opinion is worth feck all when compared to the football gurus that are Pele or Maradona?

If you think Messi’s the best player ever and that the better someone is at football, the more weight their opinion has... doesn’t the fact Messi’s put Ronaldo at the same level as himself several different times mean you can’t actually think he’s better?

It’s such bad logic.

Most of the top players barely even watch football.
Actually the logic in your argument here is flawed. This has been pointed out to you many times but you refuse to acknowledge it. Balon Dor votes aren't wholly indicative of a players true standing in the game.
Example: Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard regularly got more votes than a certain Paul Scholes (by a lot). Infact, Scholes, despite being nominated up to 5 times, never received a single vote. According to you, that means that Lampard and Scholes were seen as better by their colleagues. Was Beckham even seen as better than Scholes? Becks famously came runner up to Rivaldo in 99.
Voting for a player for the Balon Dor doesn't mean that you think they're better than everyone else as footballers. It just means that they've had a more successful season. Example: Luka last year. You really think that those who voted for him think that he's better than Leo Messi, who came fifth?
An even better example. Guess who John Terry picked for the Balon Dor between Leo and Cristiano way back? He voted for Cristiano. But guess who he regarded as the best player of all time? You guessed it. It was Leo.
Want further evidence? France Football in 1995 provided a revised Balon Dor winners list going back to the 60s (who would have won it without restrictions). Guess how many times Diego would have won the Balon Dor? A measly two times (Platini would keep his 3).
So Diego with his 2 Balon Dors would have been seen by his peers as less than those who won three?
No. Diego would still have been seen as greater than all bar Pele.
 

Tostao_80

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Media resurfacing 5 year old quotes from Alex Morgan 2 days after Messi's Argentina finished third in the Copa America :lol:

Can't wait to read all the articles about Marta's thoughts from 7 years ago in the next page.
But I thought you said that in Copa 2019, Leo Messi was playing better than before?
He deserves all the praise he gets for such a stellar tournament surely?
 

Peyroteo

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Actually the logic in your argument here is flawed. This has been pointed out to you many times but you refuse to acknowledge it. Balon Dor votes aren't wholly indicative of a players true standing in the game.
What? Did I ever say they were?

Example: Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard regularly got more votes than a certain Paul Scholes (by a lot). Infact, Scholes, despite being nominated up to 5 times, never received a single vote. According to you, that means that Lampard and Scholes were seen as better by their colleagues. Was Beckham even seen as better than Scholes? Becks famously came runner up to Rivaldo in 99.
Voting for a player for the Balon Dor doesn't mean that you think they're better than everyone else as footballers. It just means that they've had a more successful season. Example: Luka last year. You really think that those who voted for him think that he's better than Leo Messi, who came fifth?
An even better example. Guess who John Terry picked for the Balon Dor between Leo and Cristiano way back? He voted for Cristiano. But guess who he regarded as the best player of all time? You guessed it. It was Leo.
Want further evidence? France Football in 1995 provided a revised Balon Dor winners list going back to the 60s (who would have won it without restrictions). Guess how many times Diego would have won the Balon Dor? A measly two times (Platini would keep his 3).
So Diego with his 2 Balon Dors would have been seen by his peers as less than those who won three?
No. Diego would still have been seen as greater than all bar Pele.
Because he took Argentina to the World Cup title in one of those two years.... not because he was consistently better or they weren't seen in the same light for pretty much the entirity of their careers.

The reason Maradona's legacy is so big and has gotten bigger and bigger as the years pass is the same reason why Messi's will get smaller and smaller.
 

Peyroteo

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But I thought you said that in Copa 2019, Leo Messi was playing better than before?
He deserves all the praise he gets for such a stellar tournament surely?
Better than he's played in several occasions before? Yes. With an apropriate role towards his team success? Yes. He didn't play well, I specifically called it arguably the worst international tournament of his career.

Still, it's beyond me how that literally has anything at all to do with the comment you just replied to. Not only a completely irrelevant and weirdly out of context comment but also pretty shameful in pretending I had said he was great in the tournament.
 

Peyroteo

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2019

Actually the logic in your argument here is flawed. This has been pointed out to you many times but you refuse to acknowledge it. Balon Dor votes aren't wholly indicative of a players true standing in the game.
Example: Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard regularly got more votes than a certain Paul Scholes (by a lot). Infact, Scholes, despite being nominated up to 5 times, never received a single vote. According to you, that means that Lampard and Scholes were seen as better by their colleagues. Was Beckham even seen as better than Scholes? Becks famously came runner up to Rivaldo in 99.
Voting for a player for the Balon Dor doesn't mean that you think they're better than everyone else as footballers. It just means that they've had a more successful season. Example: Luka last year. You really think that those who voted for him think that he's better than Leo Messi, who came fifth?
An even better example. Guess who John Terry picked for the Balon Dor between Leo and Cristiano way back? He voted for Cristiano. But guess who he regarded as the best player of all time? You guessed it. It was Leo.

2018

The clearest rebuttal for your post is this. It wasn’t just fans that didn’t rate Scholes as highly back then. Fellow professionals in England also thought so. So did professionals and managers in Europe. They thought that highly of him that that they wouldn’t vote for him. That’s the one question that Scholes fans continually refuse to answer. If he was so good at the time, why didn’t his fellow professionals both at home and abroad vote for him much? At the end of the day, Scholes was a great player and should be denigrated, but the likes of Xavi and Zidane are and will be regarded as some of the very best in HISTORY, Paul Scholes will hardly get a mention in that company. How can anyone seriously compare him to guys that dominated World Cups, Euro Champs and Champions leagues on a regular basis. Xavi, Zidane (and Porto) did this, Scholes didn’t. Yeah, but if he played in Xavis teams? The fact is he didn’t. History doesn’t remember what ifs, it judges you on what you actually did (otherwise Ronaldo o fenomeno would be the best in history IF he hadn’t gotten injured). Only on a United forum.
How do you explain that? Why was he nominated 5 times for world player awards and didn’t get a single vote? If fellow professionals in Europe (and managers) thought he was one of the best, that wouldn’t have happened. Gerrard, Becks and Lampard used to get far more votes and recognition from the rest of Europe, the very same people you’re now using to prop Scholes up. At the time, they just didn’t think he was that great, it wasn’t a cultural thing at all.
What made you change your mind @Tostao_80?
 

Tostao_80

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Better than he's played in several occasions before? Yes. With an apropriate role towards his team success? Yes. He didn't play well, I specifically called it arguably the worst international tournament of his career.

Still, it's beyond me how that literally has anything at all to do with the comment you just replied to. Not only a completely irrelevant and weirdly out of context comment but also pretty shameful in pretending I had said he was great in the tournament.
You're still persisting with this weird view of yours. Leo Messi has just had a dire Copa and arguably his worst tournament for Argentina in the last 12 years. Please name these several tournaments before where Leo has played worse?
Literally no one in this thread agreed with this, not even Cal would touch this because it's obvious to all that he was bad.
What team success are you speaking of? Semi at the Copa where they have reached 3 finals prior with Messi.
You even went further when you claimed that Leo wasn't Argentina's best player in the qualies for WC2018. As soon as you were pressed to name players who were better than him, surprise, surprise, you couldn't.
Infact didn't you even say, or allude to Leo being better in this Copa than his 10 games for WC2018 qualies? An even more absurd view.
Anyone care to defend this?
 

Peyroteo

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You're still persisting with this weird view of yours. Leo Messi has just had a dire Copa and arguably his worst tournament for Argentina in the last 12 years. Please name these several tournaments before where Leo has played worse?
Literally no one in this thread agreed with this, not even Cal would touch this because it's obvious to all that he was bad.
What team success are you speaking of? Semi at the Copa where they have reached 3 finals prior with Messi.
You even went further when you claimed that Leo wasn't Argentina's best player in the qualies for WC2018. As soon as you were pressed to name players who were better than him, surprise, surprise, you couldn't.
Infact didn't you even say, or allude to Leo being better in this Copa than his 10 games for WC2018 qualies? An even more absurd view.
Anyone care to defend this?
Why are you completely ignoring the topic of the conversation to repeat the exact same conversation we already had and I already replied to several times despite having absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about?
 

Tostao_80

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What? Did I ever say they were?



Because he took Argentina to the World Cup title in one of those two years.... not because he was consistently better or they weren't seen in the same light for pretty much the entirity of their careers.

The reason Maradona's legacy is so big and has gotten bigger and bigger as the years pass is the same reason why Messi's will get smaller and smaller.
Diegos legacy getting bigger over the years has absolutely nothing to do with Leos situation. How on earth do you know what people will think of Leo in the future? Its baseless conjecture and just projection on your part. Leo Messi is currently seen as greater/ better than Cristiano by most people and this situation will most likely not change.
Can you give me an example of two all time greats in the past where one was seen as better at the time but many years later people thought differently?
It hasn't happened before. No reason to believe it will happen to Leo unless you just want to believe it to be so.
 

Schneckerl

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Can you give me an example of two all time greats in the past where one was seen as better at the time but many years later people thought differently?
It hasn't happened before. No reason to believe it will happen to Leo unless you just want to believe it to be so.
Paul Scholes (take your pick for the 2nd one) :D
 

Filipe

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Top 3 of all time

Messi
Maradona
Cruyff
 

Gehrman

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Ding ding ding

This is the right answer no such thing as the best footballer ever.
This is how I feel. Who can say that Alfred di stefano was a lesser player than Pelé? And how would one compare Maradonna and Pelé since they were such different players? Then you have players like Beckenbaur who wasn't even an offensive player and Zidane scored feck all goals in terms of stats, but you'd be hard pressed to say that he was that much of a lesser player compared to Platini. It's not like a 100m sprint at the olympics where you can easily verify who's the fastest. In a 11 vs 11 team game there just isn't a single player who decides the outcome of everything. I get pissed off when I read about Messi or Ronaldo losing this or that final. It's the team that win or loses that how it is in a team sport.
 

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I was thinking, what is Messi's biggest moment of individual brilliance in international competitions?

I don't even think he has a moment as good as Ronaldo vs Spain last year. And that's a lousy group stage game.

Maybe Messi vs USA in 2007? That's still very bad for a player of his stature.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I was thinking, what is Messi's biggest moment of individual brilliance in international competitions?

I don't even think he has a moment as good as Ronaldo vs Spain last year. And that's a lousy group stage game.

Maybe Messi vs USA in 2007? That's still very bad for a player of his stature.
Probably the hat-trick to lead them into the World Cup vs Venezuela.
 

Daysleeper

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I was thinking, what is Messi's biggest moment of individual brilliance in international competitions?

I don't even think he has a moment as good as Ronaldo vs Spain last year. And that's a lousy group stage game.

Maybe Messi vs USA in 2007? That's still very bad for a player of his stature.
Shocking that neither player have had a single WC knockout goal
 

Tostao_80

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Paul Scholes (take your pick for the 2nd one) :D
Why are you completely ignoring the topic of the conversation to repeat the exact same conversation we already had and I already replied to several times despite having absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about?
Because you were originally asked to back up your claims with specific examples. You couldn't (surprise surprise) and decided to move on.
You initially said that Leo was better in this Copa than he's played in several occasions before (with an appropriate role towards his team success).
I replied by saying it was absurd and not backed up by reality (no one agreed with you btw) and asked you to name these other occasions where Leo was worse. You could only come up with WC2018 Qual. I said that Leo was Argentina's best player there and you disagreed. I asked which players were better. Yet again, you couldn't come up with any examples.
You can't get away with making spurious claims, and then when asked to back them up with examples, do a disappearing act.
 

RedRonaldo

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Shocking that neither player have had a single WC knockout goal
True, but as for expectation vs reality, I would say Ronaldo has a great international career for Portugal (won Euro for Portugal first time, won 2 international competition, all time top scorer in Europe). Messi, on the other hand, due to higher expectation (Comparison with Maradona, and fact that Argentina had won WC before), it’s rather disappointing international career for him.
 

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Ole’s Wheel

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I was thinking, what is Messi's biggest moment of individual brilliance in international competitions?

I don't even think he has a moment as good as Ronaldo vs Spain last year. And that's a lousy group stage game.

Maybe Messi vs USA in 2007? That's still very bad for a player of his stature.
Portugal before Ronaldo: 0 Trophies
Portugal with Ronaldo: 2 Trophies

Argentina before Messi: 17 Trophies
Argentina with Messi: 0 Trophies



...Portugal have won both their trophies with CR7...Messi has won none of Argentina’s 17...

The problem is that at lot of people’s pimp (Messi) has got no character.
 

Ishdalar

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Portugal before Ronaldo: 0 Trophies
Portugal with Ronaldo: 2 Trophies

Argentina before Messi: 17 Trophies
Argentina with Messi: 0 Trophies



...Portugal have won both their trophies with CR7...Messi has won none of Argentina’s 17...

The problem is that at lot of people’s pimp (Messi) has got no character.
The most stupid post in this thread.

Real Madrid before Ronaldo: 31 league titles, 9 Champions Leagues.
Real Madrid with Ronaldo: 2 league titles, 4 Champions Leagues.

Italy with Roberto Baggio: 0 Trophies
Italy with Luca Toni: 1 Trophy

Portugal with Eusebio: 0 Trophies
Portugal with Eder: 1 Trophy
 

He'sRaldo

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The most stupid post in this thread.

Real Madrid before Ronaldo: 31 league titles, 9 Champions Leagues.
Real Madrid with Ronaldo: 2 league titles, 4 Champions Leagues.
That's actually remarkable.
 
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The most stupid post in this thread.

Real Madrid before Ronaldo: 31 league titles, 9 Champions Leagues.
Real Madrid with Ronaldo: 2 league titles, 4 Champions Leagues.

Italy with Roberto Baggio: 0 Trophies
Italy with Luca Toni: 1 Trophy

Portugal with Eusebio: 0 Trophies
Portugal with Eder: 1 Trophy
:lol:
 
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