Do we have a rat or are we seeing the start of something worse?

[roonster09]

It’s simple. Players will run into the ground for you if they believe in you.

This is not a debate about run or don’t run or British or continental.

This is a debate about highly influential players being influenced by Ole.

Answer is no. Herrera left at first chance and now pogba/lukaku will leave soon too. All that will be left are a bunch of yes men well geared for mid table mediocrity

So players didn't believe in Jose at all from day 1?

 

[blue blue]

It’s simple. Players will run into the ground for you if they believe in you.

This is not a debate about run or don’t run or British or continental.

This is a debate about highly influential players being influenced by Ole.

Answer is no. Herrera left at first chance and now pogba/lukaku will leave soon too. All that will be left are a bunch of yes men well geared for mid table mediocrity

Actually this is a debate about how the media might have an agenda against Utd but the fans have quickly changed the debate to being about Ole and coaching methods.

Read the OP again. It raises concerns about how media stories can become self fulfilling prophesies etc. yet a very large proportion of debate has shifted away from that. A large proportion of posters would rather get into a debate about Ole and coaching methods than the media sh*tstorm that is currently surrounding their club. This approach feeds the media frenzy and lets the media off the hook. Wake up guys. A few on here have picked up on this already but many haven't.

 

[GBBQ]

ESPN have been at it all summer. I am sure it is a very lucrative angle to keep reporting tales of woe about United because you have a fanbase on a low ebb readily buying into each bit of misery wholeheartedly which equals clicks, which equal money. Its vague but believable and could never really be proven right or wrong. Like his story on the £100 mil budget, mention it once to cause a shitstorm and then move on to the next bit of inflammatory reporting.

 

[tenpoless]

Cruijff: The ball is faster than the legs.

Doesn't make running bad in football.

 

[roonster09]

Cruijff: The ball is faster than the legs.

Can you check how much distance Ajax covered in CL last season?

 

[Greck]

I'd actually like to see how much distance we covered in our winning streak relative to the rest of the league in that period.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

It’s simple. Players will run into the ground for you if they believe in you.

This is not a debate about run or don’t run or British or continental.

This is a debate about highly influential players being influenced by Ole.

Answer is no. Herrera left at first chance and now pogba/lukaku will leave soon too. All that will be left are a bunch of yes men well geared for mid table mediocrity

Actually, thats not true according to him.

“I was very happy, I have a lot to thank the club and the fans for it and also to [manager Ole Gunnar] Solskjaer. He did a lot for me to stay, but things did not happen, [United] arrived late, and by then I had already made the decision to play in Paris.

It was once again the slow cumbersome movements of the united upper management that didnt offer him a new deal until it was far too late.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The worst thing is that it upsets player performances. Yes it is partly to blame imho. The more you feel the hostility from the fans the worse you'll perform. I think that's one of the reasons players seem to fold when the opposition scores. I'm personally thinking, 'oh shit, the press will murder us, some fans will go nuts on social media etc etc' and I can feel myself getting unhappy and tense. So therefore, I cannot imagine that this doesn't affect most of the players.

Listening to Navratilova, and she explains how your arms feel heavy when you're nervous, affecting your serve; how the feet don't move etc etc. The point being, the more you have to deal with psychologically, the worst it gets for performances and I believe we've been seeing that.

The press has worsened ever since we sacked Moyes. It's like they're butt hurt their little 'friend' was no longer there to provide info/gossip which they would then use in their articles thus giving them clicks and making money.

Their constant negativity is a serious problem in my opinion. Only an SAF could change the narrative so the fans don't let the media influence them.

It's interesting, over our down period we've come 2nd and won a few cups. We've had exciting football at times, comebacks, crazy European nights. We've signed big flashy signings and seen unknown youngsters step in and tear it up. We've had academy youth pop up from nowhere and excite us, breaking records in the process. We've had a club legend make us dream again and put a smile back on our faces. For a down period, it really hasn't been all that bad in hindsight.

The problem though, is that through it all, there's been a narrative that it's all not good enough. Nothing and no one's ever good enough until we win one of the big 2. Yes, this is partly down to expectations from a big club, but it's also partly media driven and it really fuels a lot of the negativity.

So IMO, until we either:
(i) win the Prem/ Champions League,
(ii) have a good media manipulator à la SAF, or
(iii) decide to ignore the media's doom mongering

we won't be able to truly enjoy the accomplishments of the team, which heaps more pressure on Man Utd as a whole, playing and coaching staff alike.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Actually this is a debate about how the media might have an agenda against Utd but the fans have quickly changed the debate to being about Ole and coaching methods.

Read the OP again. It raises concerns about how media stories can become self fulfilling prophesies etc. yet a very large proportion of debate has shifted away from that. A large proportion of posters would rather get into a debate about Ole and coaching methods than the media sh*tstorm that is currently surrounding their club. This approach feeds the media frenzy and lets the media off the hook. Wake up guys. A few on here have picked up on this already but many haven't.

Yup, cool that a Chelsea fan can see the situation with Man Utd regarding the media.

I wonder, was it a similar situation with you guys and Sarri last year?

 

[Foxbatt]

Cruijff meant it in a different context of passing the ball to actually carrying the ball. His sides have to run a lot as his theory was right space at the right time so it means all the players have to be running into their spaces all the time. He said if there are three options to pass the ball then there is no way a defender can stop it. So lots of running off the ball for him.
As for the rat, I am surprised as that there are not too many foreign players who would say such a thing. Could it be Pogba?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Cruijff meant it in a different context of passing the ball to actually carrying the ball. His sides have to run a lot as his theory was right space at the right time so it means all the players have to be running into their spaces all the time. He said if there are three options to pass the ball then there is no way a defender can stop it. So lots of running off the ball for him.
As for the rat, I am surprised as that there are not too many foreign players who would say such a thing. Could it be Pogba?

Our problem has been not being to pass accurately, then stand there waving your arms about at your teammates for your bad pass, then if we do manage a good pass, nobody moves, so no option after that, said player then gets ball taken off him and we are then back to trying to defend.

 

[Gasolin]

Cruijff: The ball is faster than the legs.

Of course, but if you don't get the ball back, it won't matter. And to get the ball back, you need to maintain a defensive shape and force errors. So ultimately, run.

 

[roseguy64]

Actually, thats not true according to him.



It was once again the slow cumbersome movements of the united upper management that didnt offer him a new deal until it was far too late.

We offered him a deal before PSG did. It's just Mourinho wasn't that bothered about keeping him so we didn't push it until Ole came in. Whether that was an increased offer or making him feel wanted we don't know. But we put a deal on the table from long before Solskjaer.

 

[Freak]

Can’t believe some people are advocating not focusing on running and fitness in pre season.

 

[theyank]

If the journo isnt talking through his hoop, Its probably one of the players. And a sign of the trend in the dressing room that fcked last season.

I would kind of agree if true Ole is focussed on homegrown British (cus majority of them aint good enough), Thats a stupid strategy to have.

But when it comes to having a cry about having to do alot of running and doing double sessions.. they seriously need to have a look at themselves. After the shambles on how we ended last season, Ole said he want our team to be hardest working in the league. To get to that level is gonna take some serious fitness. Training like this is expected. Not one of them are in for an easy ride this season.

If a player doesnt like that & cant be bothered to put the head down and work, they can get the fck out of our club. Jump in that taxi with Pogba and Lukaku.

Here Here. I'm tired of our fans making excuses for these overpaid babies and this change in culture. We were outplayed by simple hustle by largely every team in the prem last year. Bar a few players giving it a go at all times, shaw, herrera to say two that i can only say for sure was always trying to push on and get something done. If they dont want to be there, id rather watch a team finish 9th and give it there all this year than to watch last years team direction and work rate again. Every game even if we won or tied looked like none of them cared. Half hearted runs, complaining to each other, barely running a man down unless we were losing. Something has to change, if Ole is too hard on them, they can leave. Pogba is dead too me, id take 11 lingards over one more pogba. There might be a large gap in skill in most of your eyes but one wanted to win, ran people down, actually tried. The other can feck right on off to Real for as much money as we can get.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

It's interesting, over our down period we've come 2nd and won a few cups. We've had exciting football at times, comebacks, crazy European nights. We've signed big flashy signings and seen unknown youngsters step in and tear it up. We've had academy youth pop up from nowhere and excite us, breaking records in the process. We've had a club legend make us dream again and put a smile back on our faces. For a down period, it really hasn't been all that bad in hindsight.

The problem though, is that through it all, there's been a narrative that it's all not good enough. Nothing and no one's ever good enough until we win one of the big 2. Yes, this is partly down to expectations from a big club, but it's also partly media driven and it really fuels a lot of the negativity.

So IMO, until we either:
(i) win the Prem/ Champions League,
(ii) have a good media manipulator à la SAF, or
(iii) decide to ignore the media's doom mongering

we won't be able to truly enjoy the accomplishments of the team, which heaps more pressure on Man Utd as a whole, playing and coaching staff alike.

That's because we are being grossly mismanaged from the top down. Our resources mean we should be competing for the big trophies. Anything less IS an underachievement, especially over a long period of time.

 

[Ramshock]

Its always a drama with us to those that believe everything that is written

 

[Allas8]

Good quote from Arnau Puigmal during the U23 training camp:

“First of all, it’s about getting back to full fitness,” explained midfielder Arnau Puigmal. “Everyone knows it’s difficult to return to that 100 per cent fitness level. It’s really hard as it’s more running and gym work than in Spain but I’m used to it now.

“It’s also good to get back to being with the group as it’s like a family there. Everyone is together – the Under-18s, Under-23s and the staff.”

 

[He'sRaldo]

That's because we are being grossly mismanaged from the top down. Our resources mean we should be competing for the big trophies. Anything less IS an underachievement, especially over a long period of time.

Honestly, I think we're just unlucky that we're one of the few teams which had to get almost everything right in order to compete for our league title. Our competition is Man City, while other teams have the luxury of competing with Dortmund, Napoli, Monaco, etc. Bayern had a poor year by their standards last year while Dortmund had a very good year, and yet Bayern still won the title. In fact, look at Liverpool last season. Lost only once and still couldn't win the title.

The only team from another top league which is in a similar situation with ours, Real Madrid, haven't won very many leagues over the years, and only through legendary exploits of a GOAT were they able to win multiple champions leagues. If not for those they would be in a similar situation with us.

Not that I disagree that we're being mismanaged, but a lot of that is with hindsight, and a lot of it is certainly not as bad as we're led to believe.

 

[GM K]

Those spectacular years of winning under Fergie have now turned into pains. A media desperate to pin any negative thing on the club; opposition clubs desperate to beat us; mercenary players who only want to leverage on the club's brand before moving on and spoilt fans who have little patience to endure a rough patch. Unfortunately, we have owners and a CEO, who are only focused on the balance sheet. Next season is going to be another long one.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

We offered him a deal before PSG did. It's just Mourinho wasn't that bothered about keeping him so we didn't push it until Ole came in. Whether that was an increased offer or making him feel wanted we don't know. But we put a deal on the table from long before Solskjaer.

So youre calling herrea a liar? You must be one of those special "ITK" types I keep reading about.

 

[Wolff]

Or you have a general understanding of modern exercise in football.

Enlighten us! Every top team use the same model getting top fitness in a short time. It’s called 4x4. And finish every training session with squats. Max squats.
It’s science, and the best documented way of football fitnesses. Unless you have a more “modern way” that you where referring to?
Btw. Ole have collaborated with those guys at NTNU before and know what he is doing. Was the same program Ronaldo built his fitness btw.

 

[Gasolin]

Enlighten us! Every top team use the same model getting top fitness in a short time. It’s called 4x4. And finish every training session with squats. Max squats.
It’s science, and the best documented way of football fitnesses. Unless you have a more “modern way” that you where referring to?
Btw. Ole have collaborated with those guys at NTNU before and know what he is doing. Was the same program Ronaldo built his fitness btw.

Apparently Bayern Munchen is even more advanced than what I thought... they use the next generation training that doesn't involve much fitness preparation.

 

[Jazz]

Looking at the quote again, I actually believe the journalist didn't have a source. No one spoke to him about it imho.
A poster above said that he/she thinks the media visits the forums, sees a few gripes or concerns from us fans and then goes and makes it a story. I really believe that. They know they will have an audience. Some folks will say 'see we were right etc'. As the OP says, we need to be wary of things written about the club.

And the journalists nowadays are lazy, so wouldn't surprise they push their narratives by playing on the fears or concerns we have.

 

[roseguy64]

So youre calling herrea a liar? You must be one of those special "ITK" types I keep reading about.

He said himself in an interview near the end of the 2017/18 season that he and United were in talks. I'm using his own words.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

He said himself in an interview near the end of the 2017/18 season that he and United were in talks. I'm using his own words.

As am I. Only I quoted him word for word.

 

[roseguy64]

As am I. Only I quoted him word for word.

"I am going to fulfil the year that I have left but I don’t know if I will renew. We have started talking, although nothing has been decided yet,"

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/man-utd-contract-ander-herrera-14526464

An April 2018 article

 

[Foxbatt]

Didn't the offer United made to Herrera eventually was less than what he was making at United then?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/man-utd-contract-ander-herrera-14526464

An April 2018 article

Which says nothing about PSG, or an offer. He says we have started talks. It says nothing about an offer being made.


He later said that club we’re more interested in making new deals for martial and Rashford. Do know why you’ve bothered here. The club is being run like shit, there’s no arguments against that at this point that will be taken seriously.

 

[mariachi-19]

That period where everyone got injured may have been down to overtraining. Hopefully we have modern sport scientists working with the staff. Sports as a whole as moved to load management and rest schedules following high intensity exercises. A strong spirit can't keep a worn ligament from tearing.

Was caused by poor conditioning and management by the previous manager and then Ole attempted to get his team up to speed and it fell flat at the end of the season. It doesn't need to be stated how shit Mourinho had us playing. This is when what Ole tried to achieve in January/February should be done. Not in the middle of the fecking season.

 

[mariachi-19]

Which says nothing about PSG, or an offer. He says we have started talks. It says nothing about an offer being made.


He later said that club we’re more interested in making new deals for martial and Rashford. Do know why you’ve bothered here. The club is being run like shit, there’s no arguments against that at this point that will be taken seriously.

Because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that there's long term value in Martial and Rashford. Herrera ran down his contract and tried to hold the club to ransom. What value does he have after another 2 years?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that there's long term value in Martial and Rashford. Herrera ran down his contract and tried to hold the club to ransom. What value does he have after another 2 years?

Except that he didn’t run down his contract, the club fannied about focusing on two players while everyone else’s contract ran down and they activated extensions left and right. Rocket scientist, pfft.

 

[mariachi-19]

Except that he didn’t run down his contract, the club fannied about focusing on two players while everyone else’s contract ran down and they activated extensions left and right. Rocket scientist, pfft.

Mate, if there is a Contract on the table, there's only one reason why it hasn't been signed.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Mate, if there is a Contract on the table, there's only one reason why it hasn't been signed.

There wasnt one until AFTER PSG. And not for nothing, but theres more than one reason why a contract isnt signed. Maybe I dont like the sub clause that I need to dress up as little bo peep to let you and your mates have your way with me. Like he said himself, by the time the club came at him he was already promised to PSG. Ole was great, but the club... How many contracts have we seen get the 1 year extension activated under Ed's tenure? It honestly seems like its every single one is a struggle.

 

[mariachi-19]

There wasnt one until AFTER PSG. And not for nothing, but theres more than one reason why a contract isnt signed. Maybe I dont like the sub clause that I need to dress up as little bo peep to let you and your mates have your way with me. Like he said himself, by the time the club came at him he was already promised to PSG. Ole was great, but the club... How many contracts have we seen get the 1 year extension activated under Ed's tenure? It honestly seems like its every single one is a struggle.

Im going to take a massive pinch of salt with the comment of Ander considering what he just signed with PSG for. Similarly to your analogy, if I dont agree with your frankly ridiculous and outrageous wage demands, why would I even contemplate you.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Im going to take a massive pinch of salt with the comment of Ander considering what he just signed with PSG for. Similarly to your analogy, if I dont agree with your frankly ridiculous and outrageous wage demands, why would I even contemplate you.

I guess thats what negotiations are for, huh? And I dont know why you wouldnt take him at face value now. Hes out. He owes us nothing. Instead, he had nothing but nice things to say about the fans, the manager, the club. Just that united never bothered about his contract until after it was too late. When a player is still at a club, sure. Salt is good way to go. After they leave though? I dont see the need to lie outside of a payoff.

 

[andersj]

Looking at the quote again, I actually believe the journalist didn't have a source. No one spoke to him about it imho.
A poster above said that he/she thinks the media visits the forums, sees a few gripes or concerns from us fans and then goes and makes it a story. I really believe that. They know they will have an audience. Some folks will say 'see we were right etc'. As the OP says, we need to be wary of things written about the club.

And the journalists nowadays are lazy, so wouldn't surprise they push their narratives by playing on the fears or concerns we have.

That is my point.

Klopp himself was even moved to respond in a press conference last year, saying: "We play two games in 48 hours, there will be injuries and then some Dutch guy (on Twitter) will say things."

Anyone remember this quote from Klopp? My point is, OGS and his team are pushing the players hard currently. It will put them at great risk of injuries. And when the injuries arrive they will start putting the blame on Ole and his methods. They will bring out Verheijen again or find some other limelight-seeking expert. But lets not forget, it was the same with Klopp or Poch.

If we dont want to improve the fitness of our players, play a reactive football with few sprints and of low intensity, OGS could probably go easier on them and have fewer injuries. Like Mourinho did. But that too have a cost.

 

[blue blue]

Yup, cool that a Chelsea fan can see the situation with Man Utd regarding the media.

I wonder, was it a similar situation with you guys and Sarri last year?

To be honest I'm fairly sceptical about anything the media say and generally only believe things when the club make an announcement. I do appreciate that constant press speculation about a certain player or member of staff can be unsettling but different fans react in a different way. The vast majority of fans at the end of the season were happy for Sarri to stay. As it turned out the press speculation about Sarri wanting to leave was true but we all seem to have forgotten that since the Messiah was appointed.