IRELANDUNITED
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This is 100% true, no more excuses. Give them time thoughOle has provided the stage. It's not about potential anymore, it's their time
This is 100% true, no more excuses. Give them time thoughOle has provided the stage. It's not about potential anymore, it's their time
This season they have to step up considering club and Ole trust them to lead the attack and they both will be first choice players this season. Also don't think we should expect them to be finished products this season, they have time to develop. This will be their first season where they are expected to carry the attack.They've had a good start against Chelsea, scoring three goals between the two. Is this the season where they need to stop being about 'potential' and deliver on the pitch, is there time for them to develop or is it just the case that we can't afford to wait for them to 'come good'?
Martial has a shot at the striker role. He has the knack of being in the right place to score and if he sorts out his runs and workrate he could be brilliant, but it's a big if. He's notoriously patchy and disinterested. If he doesn't nail the number 9 down this season with ~20 league goals I could see him being shipped out in the next couple of years.
Rashford I'm not sure about. He's not got the instinct for the striker job but out wide he's not much more than a kick and run merchant. He's at the point where he needs to be settling in to one position but it's hard to say where.
In last 5 years only 7 players have scored 20 or more league goals without taking penalties, 4 of them are pure CFs and Mane, Salah, Sanchez were at their peak.Scoring 20 league goals is not an easy thing to do, especially for a player who don't even play as CF every single game and also doesn't take penalties.
Last 5 years, players who scored 20+ league goals without penalties. All these players are at peak of their careers and most of them play as pure CFs.
2018-19
Mane - 22
2017-18
Salah - 31
Kane - 28
2016-17
Kane - 24
Lukaku - 24
Sanchez - 22
Costa - 20
2015-16
Kane
Aguero
2014-15
Aguero
Hasn't he already said that the left wing is his best position, but when needed he can play the 9Martial has a shot at the striker role. He has the knack of being in the right place to score and if he sorts out his runs and workrate he could be brilliant, but it's a big if. He's notoriously patchy and disinterested. If he doesn't nail the number 9 down this season with ~20 league goals I could see him being shipped out in the next couple of years.
Rashford I'm not sure about. He's not got the instinct for the striker job but out wide he's not much more than a kick and run merchant. He's at the point where he needs to be settling in to one position but it's hard to say where.
Well it depends really on if the team is setup to have our striker score our to make space for the widemen or to drop deep. Every team has a game plan going into every game and how they plan to score goals will obviously be a big part of it.In last 5 years only 7 players have scored 20 or more league goals without taking penalties, 4 of them are pure CFs and Mane, Salah, Sanchez were at their peak.
20 league goals is not very important as long as the player is contributing to the team with his overall game. Tbf to Martial, he has looked good when not in possession which was one of the big issue in last few seasons. He is working hard, pressing the CBs and even attempted sliding tackle/interception which I never saw him doing before this season.
I agree with the general point you are making but 20+ league goals is not easy. Even in that list, how many players have done it consistently?Well it depends really on if the team is setup to have our striker score our to make space for the widemen or to drop deep. Every team has a game plan going into every game and how they plan to score goals will obviously be a big part of it.
All the players listed above scoring 20+ goals don't score that much by chance, they are expected to score that much and their team will be setup to make space and provide for these players as they are their main goalscorer/s for the team. Most of those players like Kane, Salah, Aguero are either winning trophies or are challenging and alot of that is down to the goals scored by the players who are scoring 20 to 30 goals. Goals win games and if we want to challenge for trophies this year we will need goals from somewhere.
Very nice, great player was key to the treble season and after reading his book seems like a great character haha. It's rare you see a partnership like Yorke and Cole or Shearer and Sutton or Henry and Bergkamp anymore as teams rarely play with two strikers anymore but as Yorke said the more they play together especially in games not just training they will be build up a connection that will only improve.Last week I had a lunch with Dwight Yorke here in Vietnam. We talked about the partnership between Martial & Rashford, and compared them with Yorke & Cole.
Yorke had some really good comments about Rashford, and he insisted that both of them are still young, they will tend to do complicated things, but they will learn.
Mkhitaryan and Fellaini still in top 10. Feck me.There has been a fair bit of discussion about the two, and with Lukaku sold and Sanchez, Sanchez, the spotlight is on the pair to score the bulk of the goals this season.
They've had a good start against Chelsea, scoring three goals between the two. Is this the season where they need to stop being about 'potential' and deliver on the pitch, is there time for them to develop or is it just the case that we can't afford to wait for them to 'come good'?
It's an interesting debate that @Rood, @Duafc and @Stobzilla had on the podcast (thread here)
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And they're currently the two top scoring players left at the club - Zlatan's stats were insane given the short amount of time he was fit for, basically all in one season.
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It's definitely not easy to score 20+ but look at the players that are and have done so before all are playing to top clubs and are considered to be some of the best strikers in their leagues and some the world. This is level that top strikers need to be aiming for and it's now upto Rashford and Martial to get there. Do they want to be a striker, LW, CF it's partly down to them to improve in areas of the game that applies with the position they play.I agree with the general point you are making but 20+ league goals is not easy. Even in that list, how many players have done it consistently?
Mane had his first 20 goal season,
Salah has 1 (last season he scored 18 or 19 excluding penalties),
Sanchez had 1 season,
Lukaku had 1 20 plus goals season.
Only Costa, Kane and Aguero had more than one season and all these players are pure CFs. Shows how hard it is to score 20 plus league goals in a season, especially for players who don't take penalties or don't play as#9.
Like you said, it also depends on the set up. We should improve the overall team performance for our attackers to score more goals. Creating chances shouldn't be one off even in the game, it should be consistent.
Suprised Pogba's given penalty taking duty to Rashford to be honest so if he stay taking them he should be aiming for 30 so easyRashford can reach 20 with penalties. If he takes them all.
Pogba's goals will come down though.
The players who scored 20 plus league goals are playing for the teams which creates many chances too. It's not just on individuals. Liverpool, Spurs, City creates many chances. That's what I said, as a team we should improve in creating chances if we expect many goals from players. It should be team effort.It's definitely not easy to score 20+ but look at the players that are and have done so before all are playing to top clubs and are considered to be some of the best strikers in their leagues and some the world. This is level that top strikers need to be aiming for and it's now upto Rashford and Martial to get there. Do they want to be a striker, LW, CF it's partly down to them to improve in areas of the game that applies with the position they play.
When we were under Ferguson we almost always had at least 1 player with 20+ goals and that was always our main striker/attacker. That was expected from the top striker at one of the best clubs in the world. Simply put we need goals from somewhere and preferably alot of them, if not our strikers then who else is gonna chip in? Lingard maybe 5 max, Pogba I would say around 10 then maybe a goal or 2 on average from the rest that would roughly put us around 40 goals scored excluding Martial and Rashford. You see now that someone will have to step up for us and it's a chance for the two of them to do so. Aim high and keep climbing.
Hold up now I never said the striker had to do it alone and of course its a team effort because its a team game. Chances being created is down to many players in a team and not just the striker or forwards in any team.The players who scored 20 plus league goals are playing for the teams which creates many chances too. It's not just on individuals. Liverpool, Spurs, City creates many chances. That's what I said, as a team we should improve in creating chances if we expect many goals from players. It should be team effort.
In the last few seasons, if our strikers missed one chance, we talked about it till the next game as we were poor at creating chance and every chance missed is a points dropped (exaggerating bit but that's how poor we were in general play and creating chances).
Is that you devilish? You rebranding?Last week I had a lunch with Dwight Yorke here in Vietnam. We talked about the partnership between Martial & Rashford, and compared them with Yorke & Cole.
Yorke had some really good comments about Rashford, and he insisted that both of them are still young, they will tend to do complicated things, but they will learn.
Not always the case, take Liverpool as example. Firmino is their CF but Mane and Salah ends up in goal scoring positions. There are few more examples.Hold up now I never said the striker had to do it alone and of course its a team effort because its a team game. Chance being created is down to many players in a team and not just the striker or forwards in any team.
What I was trying to say was that we should be aiming to challenge the top teams and the top teams are not just defending well but scoring alot more goals than us among'st others and the majority of the goal scoring opportunity will more than likely fall to our strikers? So if that is the case should our strikers not be aiming to score at least 20+ goals like other top strikers around the world? Because that's what we need if we want to challenge and that's what the strikers need to do to be top strikers. Yes the team needs to progress and every player will play its part but the topic of the thread is regarding Martial and Rashfords potential and I think you may be going off topic.
Great post, they both need to learn how to drop the shoulder and beat a man when running into a heavily marked area. So often they run into trouble and just lose the ball. Sterling always seems to skip through with the ball. Both players were better at this when they first broke into the team, but it seems that this has been drilled out of them.I think they'll do well if they continue making good runs with Pogba especially supplying them.
One thing that currently stops them stepping up into the great class of forwards at other clubs e.g the Manes, Sterlings etc is that they struggle to beat a man consistently in the final third. Often they'll fumble with the ball or run into the defender. Being able to get past a man is crucial in the final third for stretching play and breaking down the top defences.
Yeah, when you see some of the players in our current top 10 goalscorers, it is concerning.Said this last season but they would both get close to or over 20 goals if played consistently and in roles that don't diminish them. Martial has too much ability not to score goals and Rashford has both the ability and the mentality to go with it. People on here are far too impatient with Rashford in particular.
Don't have any issue with them being the two main goal threats. It's what I wanted us to do this season. The issue is getting enough goals from elsewhere. Games where you need to break teams down who sit back is where you need more than the two consistent goal threats. Particularly if you don't have a 30+ goal a season player who will bail you out more often than not. There's a lot of pressure on the frigne attacking players and midfielders to chip in. Hopefully it works out because if it does we'll have a pretty good chance of a good season.
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No, I have only one nick here, and rarely post because they categorized me as a newbie, so I usually read-only.Is that you devilish? You rebranding?
I’m just kidding just alluding to dev, who has regaled this forum with details from his close chats with players and staff when they’ve visited Malta ;PNo, I have only one nick here, and rarely post because they categorized me as a newbie, so I usually read-only.
This. How many guaranteed 20 goal a season strikers are available right now? I challenge anyone to name five.The notion that we can just sell an inconsistent but very productive young player is out of touch with our current reality. We aren't City or Bayern who are guaranteed to replace that kind of production with whomever they stumble on in the transfer market.
I don't think Martial does, yet, have the positional instincts of a natural goalscorer, and it's the part of his game he most needs to improve. It was great to see him getting that second goal yesterday as it's exactly the sort of goal that the main striker should be picking up on a regular basis. Hopefully he'll take some encouragement from it and work to get into dangerous central positions more often.Martial has a shot at the striker role. He has the knack of being in the right place to score and if he sorts out his runs and workrate he could be brilliant, but it's a big if. He's notoriously patchy and disinterested. If he doesn't nail the number 9 down this season with ~20 league goals I could see him being shipped out in the next couple of years.
Rashford I'm not sure about. He's not got the instinct for the striker job but out wide he's not much more than a kick and run merchant. He's at the point where he needs to be settling in to one position but it's hard to say where.
Cross chiesa for Gomes and we got ourself a better & more balanced XI & also save us more cash.I am still dreaming of a United dream attacking team. And how can you become a top quality players without top quality teammates?Like the assist pass from Pogba to Rashford?
So to give Martial and Rashford better support. I would luv to add Sancho on the right side. Assist passes from the right side ala Walker to Jesus. Or City opposite Sane to Sterling on the left. Same receipt.
In with Sancho and Chiesa on each side.
Sancho - McTom - Pogba/Bruno - Chiesa
Rashford - Martial
Chiesa same hard work/aggresive mentality and speed as Rashford. A really determination, skillful and versatile player on the left. Same level with Sancho on the right.
Like i said. Even it were only Rashford and Martial. You can see how fast it can goes for some premier league opponents. And you add same speed and football skill sets in Sancho and Chiesa. And like said. Those boys together will be to fast and skillful for premier league league. And they are too good with the ball. They will come up on the same level as City and Liverpool, when it come to keep the ball in the team. And explode when its right and most efficient.
And if Pogba is leaving in the future. The ideal replacement for Pogba is Bruno Fernandes. Why Fernandes, Because i want someone who can suit and cope with pace and skills of Sancho, Rashford, Martial and Chiesa level. And Fernandes is a easy on the toes player. It mean he can run alot and cover ground a lot.
Trust me. With adding Chiesa and Sancho. Then United can match City and Liverpool in the attack and theirs consistent in the attack. Same high speed and skills. And same high precise movement and passing.
2/3 more players then my dream team come true.
Chiesa 21 age from Fiorentina
Sancho 19
Rashford 21
Martial 23
Greenwood 17
They are all young. Be patience. Let the gel and understand each others. Which they will do quick. Because of they good football vision and head. How movement and passing. A combination football shall play.
Then i can promise. About 2-3 years. You will a team that will dominate over 5 years.
Buy top quality football players around Rashford age. Build a future dominate team. Then Chiesa ans Sancho fits the bill and click all the boxes.
And like i have said. Money back if you are nit satisfying with attacking football playing of the combination of the 6 players i line up above. It will be too fast and too furious. It will be rock n roll. All of Rashford, Sancho, Martial and Chiesa are good on small areas. Same with Bruno Fernandes.
So back to the theme. United are really good with the combination and relations between Pogba, Rashford and Martial. But i do see United can become and improve alot more in the attack. If United buy and get Sancho and Chiesa in the future. Make the team complete in the attack.
No my friend. Chiesa workrate and defensive ability, and aggressiveness are on same level as Rashford. Chiesa can track back a lot. Chiesa is a must have. Rashford and Martial will love the way Chiesa is playing football. Hard work, skillful and still a team player. Know when you have to pass the ball. The difference between the best and second best. Like Messi. Messi nearly 100% knows when to pass the ball and when to take on players.Cross chiesa for Gomes and we got ourself a better & more balanced XI & also save us more cash.
Waste of money instead of using what we already have with great talent.No my friend. Chiesa workrate and defensive ability, and aggressiveness are on same level as Rashford. Chiesa can track back a lot. Chiesa is a must have. Rashford and Martial will love the way Chiesa is playing football. Hard work, skillful and still a team player. Know when you have to pass the ball. The difference between the best and second best. Like Messi. Messi nearly 100% knows when to pass the ball and when to take on players.
But your can keep your opinion
I think it's more a lack of effort to get into those positions. He likes to drift to pick the ball up and is then happy to stay out there. When he is already in the box he very often gets on the end of things.I don't think Martial does, yet, have the positional instincts of a natural goalscorer, and it's the part of his game he most needs to improve. It was great to see him getting that second goal yesterday as it's exactly the sort of goal that the main striker should be picking up on a regular basis. Hopefully he'll take some encouragement from it and work to get into dangerous central positions more often.
I think your assessment of Rashford is harsh, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he finished as our top scorer this season.