Anti-knife chicken and chips campaign

Red Defence

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Where I come from everybody eats chicken and chips. The takeaway places do seem to be mostly frequented by the younger generation though who loiter at night and might be prone to hanging around in groups (or gangs). The proportion of different ethnicities will differ according to each area and in the area I live the larger proportion hanging around these places are usually white. Don’t see how that’s racial targeting.
 

P-Nut

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Knife crime is more common among young men, more common among young men from low income households, and even more common among young black men from low income households. All three of those groups visit chicken shops more than average and that difference increases as you go through each group.

Regardless of whether it's appropriate to target crime messaging to the groups that perpetrate it most often, or whether reaching them at this point in this way is an effective deterrent, it's a matter of fact that the targeting is supported by the evidence. And the targeting is to utilise the money for this campaign most efficiently. Just because it fits with a cultural stereotype doesn't change that.
I'm not so sure about the thought process behind it. And also don't see it playing out in the same way for problems that may be more likely in other ethnic groups.

For instance, if young white males took the most drugs in the country. Would we see a campaign target solely at them, or would they use the funds to target the wider problem?
 

Fully Fledged

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Why can't they just target the young on social media? Use targeted messaging like CA used to get people to vote fro Trump and Brexit.
 

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Where I come from everybody eats chicken and chips. The takeaway places do seem to be mostly frequented by the younger generation though who loiter at night and might be prone to hanging around in groups (or gangs). The proportion of different ethnicities will differ according to each area and in the area I live the larger proportion hanging around these places are usually white. Don’t see how that’s racial targeting.
Yeah but that's your area. If you go to Shepherd's Bush KFC -the nastiest KFC ever, as an aside- the ethnic mix is the complete opposite.
Aren't you in Devon?
 

Brwned

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I'm not so sure about the thought process behind it. And also don't see it playing out in the same way for problems that may be more likely in other ethnic groups.

For instance, if young white males took the most drugs in the country. Would we see a campaign target solely at them, or would they use the funds to target the wider problem?
They would, and have been, doing both for decades. Mass messaging and highly targeted campaigns have very different functions, flaws and impacts and it's a never ending problem so campaigns exactly like this will always take place. And they will unfortunately always come up against PC silliness, because it is a matter of fact that crime differs significantly across key social and economic classifications.

Whether the attempted solution it is in any way attuned to the root causes of the issue is an unanswerable question with the information we have available. It's incredibly complex and most people decide based on broad principles, which differ significantly - and that's perfectly normal in healthy societies. If this reignites that debate then that's a good thing.

The actual targeting is largely irrelevant. You either think targeted messaging works or it doesn't. You either think the problem of crime can be solved in this very direct way or you don't. If you believe both of them then the targeting is appropriate and the delivery will be effective, as long as the message resonates. The evidence does support the target audience definition. If you believe neither of the former then this one example doesn't matter. All of these campaigns are a wasted attempt at crime reduction and prevention and damaging to social cohesion regardless. It's just an opportunity for PC outrage.

I happen to think targeted messaging like this is incredibly ineffective and the theory informing the crime prevention strategy is very sketchy. But it would be silly for me to have so much conviction in that thought that I would ridicule the campaign, when people who have studied and tried to tackle the problem for decades are still very divided on both counts because of its complexity.
 
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Jippy

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So I’m right then, it varies depending on the area. No I’m just outside Greater Manchester.
Ah, I'm thinking of Red Tiger then? Yeah of course re areas and the likes of Chicken Cottage tend to be in crappier areas, which in London at least generally have higher populations of ethnic minorities.

On C4 news it was odd cos you had a black youth berating the stereotyping, while a black chicken shop owner was all for it. Saying that , the youth's arguments about tackling systemic racism trumped the whole idea.
 

RedTiger

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Ah, I'm thinking of Red Tiger then? Yeah of course re areas and the likes of Chicken Cottage tend to be in crappier areas, which in London at least generally have higher populations of ethnic minorities.

On C4 news it was odd cos you had a black youth berating the stereotyping, while a black chicken shop owner was all for it. Saying that , the youth's arguments about tackling systemic racism trumped the whole idea.
No jippy, I'm from Darsat
 

Lennon7

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It’s such a fecking Tory thing to do to put them on fecking chicken boxes. Most likely exclusively in rough areas. What does it achieve? It’s embarrassingly out of touch and I can just hear the accents around a boardroom table trying to understand estranged youth and what they enjoy.

I want to say at least it’s something but this is just ridiculous.
 

BobbyManc

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They would, and have been, doing both for decades. Mass messaging and highly targeted campaigns have very different functions, flaws and impacts and it's a never ending problem so campaigns exactly like this will always take place. And they will unfortunately always come up against PC silliness, because it is a matter of fact that crime differs significantly across key social and economic classifications.

Whether the attempted solution it is in any way attuned to the root causes of the issue is an unanswerable question with the information we have available. It's incredibly complex and most people decide based on broad principles, which differ significantly - and that's perfectly normal in healthy societies. If this reignites that debate then that's a good thing.

The actual targeting is largely irrelevant. You either think targeted messaging works or it doesn't. You either think the problem of crime can be solved in this very direct way or you don't. If you believe both of them then the targeting is appropriate and the delivery will be effective, as long as the message resonates. The evidence does support the target audience definition. If you believe neither of the former then this one example doesn't matter. All of these campaigns are a wasted attempt at crime reduction and prevention and damaging to social cohesion regardless. It's just an opportunity for PC outrage.

I happen to think targeted messaging like this is incredibly ineffective and the theory informing the crime prevention strategy is very sketchy. But it would be silly for me to have so much conviction in that thought that I would ridicule the campaign, when people who have studied and tried to tackle the problem for decades are still very divided on both counts because of its complexity.
The Tory Government would rather pay to put some stupid lines inside a box of chicken in a half-arsed attempt to be seen to be doing something to tackle knife crime rather than actually invest into deprived areas and poor neighbourhoods. You're giving them far too much credit. I do not believe anyone who has researched problems like this for decades could seriously come to the conclusion that this is a wise approach. The backlash to it alone already should tell you what a poorly thought out idea it is. And 'poorly thought out' is probably the most generous take I could give. Forget the "PC" aspect to it, which in itself is a symptom of the utter lack of serious thought behind this, it's just a total waste of money. A government message on a chicken box is not going to resonate with a disaffected youth living in an area rife with poverty.
 

Red Defence

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Ah, I'm thinking of Red Tiger then? Yeah of course re areas and the likes of Chicken Cottage tend to be in crappier areas, which in London at least generally have higher populations of ethnic minorities.

On C4 news it was odd cos you had a black youth berating the stereotyping, while a black chicken shop owner was all for it. Saying that , the youth's arguments about tackling systemic racism trumped the whole idea.
We have to remember that youths of today do hang around certain places at night and one of those types of places is the takeaway, and chicken and chip places along are the favourite. No point targeting Michelin starred pubs/restaurants because those customers get others to do their knife crime.
 

Brwned

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The Tory Government would rather pay to put some stupid lines inside a box of chicken in a half-arsed attempt to be seen to be doing something to tackle knife crime rather than actually invest into deprived areas and poor neighbourhoods. You're giving them far too much credit. I do not believe anyone who has researched problems like this for decades could seriously come to the conclusion that this is a wise approach. The backlash to it alone already should tell you what a poorly thought out idea it is. And 'poorly thought out' is probably the most generous take I could give. Forget the "PC" aspect to it, which in itself is a symptom of the utter lack of serious thought behind this, it's just a total waste of money. A government message on a chicken box is not going to resonate with a disaffected youth living in an area rife with poverty.
No one thinks putting a message on a box is more effective than eliminating poverty, social deprivation and a lack of purpose, along with all of the other things we think lead to crime. Those things cost more money than we know and certainly more money than we have, when balanced up against all of the other nations' priorities. It's just one incredibly small tool used in a massive toolkit to tackle a problem that the entire human race still don't understand anywhere near well enough to solve.

The motivations behind doing it are different for a wide range of stakeholders. The tories were not the people who created and developed the idea. Nor were they the people who designed or executed the campaign. So yes you can believe it is a terrible idea but you can't believe the reason this happened is because this one group had this one motivation and this was the result. It is factually untrue. And the likelihood that all of them had that shared motivation is so small that it isn't even worth considering.

They are the ones who gave the green light and their motivations for doing so are undoubtedly largely driven by all of the terrible incentives in politics we know about, and fuelled by many of the in my view terrible attitudes towards society we agree they have. But you and others focusing solely on that one element - that one decision maker of many, that political enemy you're so accustomed to vilifying - is also driven by many of the terrible incentives in political thinking.

It might be a terrible idea but to believe you know it is because you understand the complex nature of how political messaging works on such a specific level is ludicrous, in my view. We don't even know how people form a thought. And there's all sorts of evidence that attitude changes can be influenced by seemingly ridiculous things, when lots of seemingly random events work together. Tieing this back to a political slogan and then saying this is why it happened and this is why it will fail...baffles me. But that is what happens in politics so it's just one obvious example of my own ignorance.
 
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Jippy

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We have to remember that youths of today do hang around certain places at night and one of those types of places is the takeaway, and chicken and chip places along are the favourite. No point targeting Michelin starred pubs/restaurants because those customers get others to do their knife crime.
Not even sure what we're debating anymore as we seem to be agreeing.
 

Kentonio

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The thought the stereotype of blacks and fried chicken is an American racial stereotype not a British one.
 

SalfordRed18

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The thought the stereotype of blacks and fried chicken is an American racial stereotype not a British one.
I think it's more associated with poor people. Go to predominantly Asian areas or working class white areas and its chicken shops as far as the eye can see.
Black people loving chicken is a stereotype known all around the world not just America.
 

P-Nut

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How do you know this? What sort of comments or jokes or whatever have you seen or heard? I seem to have missed it completely.
I work on the railway, which is about 20 years behind normal society so racism, sexism etc is quite common.

I constantly get comments when I say I'm going to get some food, but it's usually joking from mates.

Also if you asked any of our childhood friends they'd all tell you chicken is any black guys favourite food.

I suppose it depends where you grew up, I'm from Oldham so it's a poor rundown area and so people's views haven't quite caught up with modern times.

I'm guessing the same views would be found in the more rundown areas of the country.
 

diarm

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Why can't they just target the young on social media? Use targeted messaging like CA used to get people to vote fro Trump and Brexit.
This is a good shout. Instead of bankrupting Cambridge Analytica, governments should have enlisted them to start brainwashing people into not carrying knives, not shooting up schools, not taking drugs etc.

Actually I've just read that back and it sounds like the first scene of a weird episode of Black Mirror.
 

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I work on the railway, which is about 20 years behind normal society so racism, sexism etc is quite common.

I constantly get comments when I say I'm going to get some food, but it's usually joking from mates.

Also if you asked any of our childhood friends they'd all tell you chicken is any black guys favourite food.

I suppose it depends where you grew up, I'm from Oldham so it's a poor rundown area and so people's views haven't quite caught up with modern times.

I'm guessing the same views would be found in the more rundown areas of the country.
Thanks for the background. I understand the railway, I worked there forty years, and the north, I'm from Preston, and living in rundown areas, and I have a very diverse collection of mates, to say the least. I've never heard any of this chicken stuff though, but obviously you have, so fair enough.
 

haram

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The kids who are a part of this gang culture eat at these shops, regardless of race. Young kids in general who live in these areas affected by knife crime eat at these shops. The idea itself though, I’m not sure it will achieve much.
 

SalfordRed18

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I refuse to believe that people genuinely thought black people loving chicken is a stereotype only in the US.

If you said something like grape juice or kool aid, I'd understand you not knowing since those are things that are lot more popular and common in the states. Fair game. But surely you know chicken?
 

Nanook

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I refuse to believe that people genuinely thought black people loving chicken is a stereotype only in the US.

If you said something like grape juice or kool aid, I'd understand you not knowing since those are things that are lot more popular and common in the states. Fair game. But surely you know chicken?
If you asked the average guy on the street to name as many stereotypes about black people as he could think of I’m fairly certain he wouldn’t mention chicken.
 

SalfordRed18

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If you asked the average guy on the street to name as many stereotypes about black people as he could think of I’m fairly certain he wouldn’t mention chicken.
I'm 100% certain he would.
 

Nanook

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I'm 100% certain he would.
I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t. Are you black? If so you’re going to be more aware about the stereotypes of your own race than the average person would be. I’m sure there are many stereotypes about Polish and Romanian people that the majority of Brit don’t have a clue about.

Growing up I never heard any jokes or comments about black people liking chicken. I only first heard about it when this Australian KFC advert went viral in America for being supposedly racist. It wasn’t seen as the slightest bit racist or insensitive in Australia.



“The fried-chicken/black-people stereotype is virtually unknown outside the U.S. ”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kfcs-racist-ad-reveals-american-consumers-ignorance/
 

SalfordRed18

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I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t. Are you black? If so you’re going to be more aware about the stereotypes of your own race than the average person would be. I’m sure there are many stereotypes about Polish and Romanian people that the majority of Brit don’t have a clue about.

Growing up I never heard any jokes or comments about black people liking chicken. I only first heard about it when this Australian KFC advert went viral in America for being supposedly racist. It wasn’t seen as the slightest bit racist or insensitive in Australia.



“The fried-chicken/black-people stereotype is virtually unknown outside the U.S. ”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kfcs-racist-ad-reveals-american-consumers-ignorance/
I'm black and I'm British and it's a stereotype I've heard literally my entire life.

But Jim Edwards from CBS news hasn't (so he says) I guess I must be wrong then.