Yeah, funny how every midfielder we signed is tagged with "to get best out of Pogba". No, it's to take the team to next level.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Yh exactly he's one of 11. We need to have a blueprint for how the midfield works first and then sign accordingly. I don't think anyone can properly explain how we are supposed to be playing offensively through the midfield unless it's simply pass the ball to Pogba to play a long ball over the top to Rashford or pass it wide to James. We do a lot of probing as a midfield but we don't actually do much of note with the ball.
Both United and Pogba will be better off when he leaves. We need a more disciplined midfielder to play in a 2. His creativity can be replaced by investing in a creative number 10 and upgrading striker position.
He’s going to put some effort in now? What a bloody nice chap he is, knew we could rely on him when needed, that’s until some twat from FIFA rocks up and says he’s being treated like a slave.
This was it - gotta feel for him that he has to put some effort in now. Have to question what he was doing prior to this though on the flip side.
https://strettynews.com/2019/09/04/...-issues-update-after-failed-real-madrid-move/
As the poster said, and although it doesn't suit your agenda, it's not about building around Pogba, it's about building a functioning team.
A team is the sum of its parts, you don't buy NGolo Kante to play next to NGolo Kante....We bought Nemanja Vidic to play next to Rio, you compliment the players and the system you're looking to impart.
You seem, and others to, to want to make everything about Pogba and to want to ignore context. If it's suggested that we could do with a Kante type player, that's seen as us having to build around Pogba, but that's no more true than buying Vidic to play next to Ferdinand. I'm sure I don't have to actually point that out to you, it's your agenda that's getting in the way of your rationale.
I'm fine with people saying Pogba hasn't been great and saying that they don't think he'll be the long term solution, that remains to be seen, but what's doing my head in is the irrationality of the same group of posters. Trying to downplay everything about Pogba, using bizarre rationale like 'he's been rubbish' and later 'so what if he's been one of our best three players, it's the least you'd expect'. Trying to rewrite history about the World Cup, Juve and the good performances he's had here. I remember ever someone downplaying his performance in the derby the other season by saying ' Pogba was part of the team that was losing 2-0 in the first place and who would expect Smalling to score the winner so really the whole thing was just a bizarre game'.
My stance is we aren't in a position to start with our best players. We need to add quality and go from there not remove the few quality players we do have just because you don't like them. Pogba is our best player and he's performed better than almost any other player over the past three years.
Ole's going the right way about it. He's started by improving the back four and got rid of players who weren't good enough. Next job is to add quality.
At some point in the future selling Pogba might be the best thing to do, today it isn't and all the posters arguing it is are wrong and agenda driven.
His effort and commitment has been absolutely fine from the start of the season, let's not try to rewrite history on that
Be nice to see him break a sweat against a 10 man saints when we could really do with the 3 points instead of strolling around looking disinterested.
I must admit it's a bit strange, it's something you would expect opposition fans to do!
You know that’s not what his brother was getting at, come on now.
Except he wasn't strolling around looking disinterested...he was pushed further forwards to good effect. He put Rashford through 1on1 twice and played James in on the byline.
So again you've totally rewritten history to suit your agenda when in fact you've already admitted you didn't even bother watching the game properly, you were strolling around the pub disinterested
Well said, there was even one saying that the chances he created for Rashford on Saturday don’t really count as they were on his left foot. It’s weird how actively some try to discredit him.
Haha, you got your spies on me?
I did ask if anyone could provide gifs/footage of these so called chances but either they aren’t really chances or only us crackpots really care during international week.
I would like to state for the record that I would bloody love it if we bought two N'golo Kantes to play next to each other!
That'd be the strongest central midfield in the world. He's a better footballer. Should have had both. Inexcusable.
This goes so under the radar. The Pogba/Ibra summer was an almost great one.
I’ve said ever since that Kante at that price was criminal not going for him & then we bought Matic for more a year later.
Maybe.....Rashford didn't make much of the chances, they were as much of a chance as Martials vs Wolves in my opinion in fact perhaps moreso but Rashford got no power or lift on them and the keeper saved easily enough. They were still very good chances created with nicely weighted through passes.
It's really crazy....I could find plenty of legitimate stuff to criticise any of our players for, I don't need to make stuff up or rewrite history. To me that just discredits those posters. The poster you mentioned from the Rashford chances I find quite pathetic because he has some valid points on Pogba but then is totally irrational and refuses to accept any positives so to me he discredits anything he says.
I remember the martial one against wolves as it could have put us 2 up just before half time and it was just an unlucky bounce/touch what did him. If Pogba did create similar chances then fair play. (It’s not even on sky sports catch up I assume because it was a BT game, might try match of day catch up later to confirm
Rashford didn't make much of the chances, they were as much of a chance as Martials vs Wolves in my opinion in fact perhaps moreso but Rashford got no power or lift on them and the keeper saved easily enough. They were still very good chances created with nicely weighted through passes.
)I’ll be back!
Ok I’m back
Just watched MOTD highlights
1. First point, the fact that we are last on the show with regularity is depressing.
2. It only showed one of these great chances that is being referenced, simple pass not really executed well, pushed Rashford too wide to have a great chance.
3. Pretty much showed Pogba hobbling around for the last 10 minutes, there was a moment when he thought he had an opportunity and the hobbling stopped.
Just watched MOTD highlights
1. First point, the fact that we are last on the show with regularity is depressing.
2. It only showed one of these great chances that is being referenced, simple pass not really executed well, pushed Rashford too wide to have a great chance.
3. Pretty much showed Pogba hobbling around for the last 10 minutes, there was a moment when he thought he had an opportunity and the hobbling stopped.
You’ll see what you want to see.Ok I’m back
Just watched MOTD highlights
1. First point, the fact that we are last on the show with regularity is depressing.
2. It only showed one of these great chances that is being referenced, simple pass not really executed well, pushed Rashford too wide to have a great chance.
3. Pretty much showed Pogba hobbling around for the last 10 minutes, there was a moment when he thought he had an opportunity and the hobbling stopped.
Which point to you disagree with?
All your points are negative....I don't even think you see it when it's pointed out to you....so it's pointless talking about it. I've said it a million times, if all you see is negatives, even in very obvious poitives then you're irrational and I'm tired of going back and forth with it.
You've an irrational dislike of Pogba.
I’d still love him to be a success here, I just know it’s not going to happen. Like I’ve said it’s like knowing your bird is cheating on you and hoping it’s still going to work out. Too many of you are in denial.
It's not about unleashing Pogba. It's never about unleashing Pogba. It's about improving our midfield. Replace Pogba with Eriksen and we still need to improve our 2 other midfielders and we still need a DM. What is Eriksen good at? He's good at chance creation. He's one part of the midfield. We'd still lack one component of the midfield to protect the back 4, and another midfielder who can run the show through their passing ala Scholes. So sure, you'd get a little more discipline in Eriksen, but you lose a better counter attacker in Pogba as Pogba is the superior dribbler. There's always a positive and negative in regards to these players because each player has their own style or things they excel in.
What I'm saying is that Pogba already covers the attacking portion of the midfield and only needs a little more help, which one of our midfield buys will provide. I'll provide more context:
Current United's midfielders excel at
Attacking: Pogba
Defending: nobody
Distribution: nobody
*extra category > energy: McTominay due to Pogba's & Matic's lack of energy
Past Liverpool
Attacking: Gerrard
Defending: Mascherano
Distribution: Xabi
past Barca
Attacking: Iniesta
Defending: Busquets
Distribution: Xavi
past City
Attacking: De Bruyne
Defending: Fernandinho
Distribution: Silva
Different style of sum of midfield components
Real Madrid
Attacking: Modric/Kroos
Defending: Casemiro
Distribution: Modric/Kroos
*Roles aren't as defined as previous examples, but the sum of its parts still do the job the others do
past Chelsea
Defending: Makalele/Essien (chips in)
Attacking: Lampard/Essien (chips in)
Distribution:
*A lot more defensively solid as Essien is a box to box player who chips in all areas. What they lack in distribution they make up for in defensive ability and finishing.
past Juve
Attacking: Pogba/Vidal
Distribution: Pirlo/Pogba (chips in)
Defending: Pirlo (through positioning)/Vidal (chips in w/energy)
Our midfield lacks a true defensive presence and lacks a midfielder who can distribute all match. Pogba has the distribution skills, but as you state, he lacks discipline. He lacks discipline in the form of losing interest in proper positioning/defending because he enjoys attacking more, and he loses the ball more for this very reason because he tries to look for a proper goal creation chance a bit too long, or tries to use his physical superiority in deeper areas in order to give himself a better chance creation opening.
You and others see this as a liability, I view it as a role that he's not suited for. That's not a problem. It just means we need those other two components.
The reason why we deploy Pogba in that deeper role is because we lack a proper distributor in midfield and Pogba is the best passer in the team. You play Pogba further forward in his more natural position, and he a lot of times doesn't get into games because we again, lack a good distributor who can feed our attackers in better areas to cause damage.
All stems from a lack of overall quality in our midfield. We've been compromising too much, and need to add quality just like our RW and RB roles. Thank god AWB has solved that RB role. Now it would be amazing if Sancho transforms our right side.
It's never his fault and there's always an excuse. Has to play on the left in a 3 man midfield, has to play with a good dm, has to play further forward, has to play deeper, needs better strikers, needs more likes on Instagram, another pogpillow.. Honestly. If you need Kante, Vidal, Pirlo and Marchisio with you in midfield or you can't perform, maybe you're the issue?
De Jong is a child yet he made vdBeek and Co look world class on his own against elite opposition like Rm in the CL yet Pogba needs all of NASA to build the teams around him so he can look good.
Just stop defending him no matter what, I know you love him but he wants to leave and sometimes he actually does let the club down and should get called out for it. If you defend him no matter what, nobody will care once you're, eventually, right and he is blameless.
Very good post. It's such an obvious and fundamental point that it's sad that you even have to explain it.
What on earth are you ranting about? What does fault have anything to do with anything? It's like you don't read or understand what is said.
Unbelievable. Only in this forum is it controversial to want to improve 2/3 of the midfield. It's funny, because we had a Pogba type midfielder in Di Maria, except he was also a work horse. Wasn't good enough either.
He simply can't or refuses to control the match. Period.
Don't forget that We had Pogba, Herrera, Matic. On paper that looked great, Matic was good defensively in his first two seasons, Herrera had a lot of energy. I think when We bought Pogba We expected him to be more than just an Attacking Midfielder who gambles on through passes and long balls but also a commanding presence on the field. So far I see him more like an AM who often goes forward to score goal (like Yaya Toure but with more creativity and less control in midfield).
If that's the case then We pretty much have a luxury player that can't help control the match. I believe that wasn't the reason why We broke a transfer record to sign him. Now, We can add another Herrera and or Matic into the mix and it'll mean nothing. We need a pure CM. The Carrick/Scholes/Pirlo type of midfielder which can control the rythm of the match and not only distributing passes. Such midfielders are hard to find.
What pains me the most is, regardless of 2 managers have tried to convert him into a more complete midfielder (for his own good) because on paper, He looks very capable of doing so, He still prefers the flashy, the risky type of play and loses the ball a lot. I don't know much about the French NT, but at ManUnited We need a proper midfielder first and foremost because We have no Pirlo. But He looks very unwilling to adapt to the situation. That's the only criticism I have towards him. You can do it, why don't you? if We sign another that can handle the role then He's free to do whatever He wants.
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Matic was not good defensively in his first two seasons. Last season he was terrible (his 2nd season). And he was never a class DM. He was available and we lacked a DM so he was a compromise. Not everyone on this forum agreed, but I said in his first season that he was crap the 2nd half of his first season. Not important though because his 2nd season being last year disproves that.
Herrera was a good player, and he was a good fit next to Pogba and Matic because they lacked energy. But he wasn't some amazing player was he? He's not Roy Keane or Arturo Vidal. Of course, you don't need those players, but Herrera was only needed because he was a good balance to Matic and Pogba. If for example we had Kante instead of Matic, Herrera becomes less useful because Kante does everything Herrera does, but better as it's with an added defensive presence that Herrera doesn't show as much aptitude for. Still, if it was Herrera and Pogba here, I would be quite satisfied with another class CM to complete our midfield so it's not like someone better than Herrera was needed. An upgrade on Matic was needed though.
Can't or refuse to control the match is basically agreeing with what I said. It's just semantics. He lacks discipline which can go under both of the listed reasons you stated. Agreed, he just doesn't do it.
We broke the transfer record on him because we saw him as a great midfielder. Did we do it because we thought he would complete our midfield? Really? That would mean our midfield was already good and just needed an extra push. How is that possible if we've been complaining about our midfield for years? Even when Carrick was here, we complained about Carrick's partners. That's why Schweinsteiger was useless, we complained about Fellaini's usage rate, sold Schneiderlin, and Herrera had up and down seasons where he gets ignored for 1 season and plays a lot the next season. That period also included Rooney in the midfield to fit him in.
Yeah, I don't see how Pogba was there to complete our midfield when a side like Bayern just got Thiago, Vidal, and Javi Martinez. Same time Real Madrid got Kroos to be paired with Modric, and were trying to replace Xabi's absence.
Think some of us have lowered our standards so much that we've forgotten what it takes to be able to compete with the clubs really in it to win it. If Pogba was our weak link, and we could upgrade on him, I would be in agreement with you guys. That's far from the case though. Our midfield is awful and Woodward needed to buy a Herrera replacement and a Matic replacement no matter what. This failure is on him.
Another obvious point is that Pogba would have left this summer had we got a reasonable bid and will probably leave next summer. We will need 3 midfielders then.
Yeah. If Pogba gets sold, I would like to bid a lot on Havertz. Probably won't happen. Still, in the event that it does happen, I'll still be saying the same things. It's just a fact that we need to vastly improve on 2/3 of our midfield.
Good post.
TLDR
Pogba needs xyz and thirty eight alphabets to be 'unleashed' - all excuses.
He has a poor mentality and only shines if 3 other guys totally carry him and allow him to ping hollywood (or bollywood rather) balls around for his youtube/insta highlight reels and can't be relied upon if things get rough. Would fit into a team like Bayern or PSG perhaps where you have 4-5 actual competitive games a year and you can focus on your twitter career for the remainder.
He needs a balanced team if we want him to be consistent. The same thing most players need. FFS, even Messi is nowhere near as consistent for Argentina as he is for Barcelona, and he's probably the best player of all time. Real Madrid's midfield was unbalanced despite having two great players in it until they bought Casemiro in to fill the role they needed. Back in the day they fell apart when they sold Makelele.
I don't know why people make out that Pogba needs a dozen and one things set up perfectly, all built specifically to get the best out of him. I do agree that he could be mentally stronger which would result in somewhat more consistency, but he's basically being set up to fail with what we've surrounded him with over his time here. He can only play his part, and if everything around him is failing it makes it harder and harder for him to do his part.
I don't pay attention to his brother's or agent. I'm not saying it's fine that they're trying to cause a stir, but I find it pretty easy to ignore them and just focus on his contribution to our football, which is obviously far from perfect, but, for me, taking everything into context, I'd rather look on the positive side in regards to Paul than the negative.
Next time, try reading. It's not hard actually.
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The word "hater" is representative of so many things that's wrong in the world.
It's possible to not rate him without "hating him." Football is already so tribal, but in recent years, due to the untimely birth of social media, there are now tribes within the tribes, and it feels like the rivalry between fans of the same team is just as strong as those between other teams.
As the saying goes, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. It's obvious he's a good player. He just isn't worth the money we paid for him, and he's not half as good as the hype that surrounds him. If you disagree, fine. But why do you need to do everything to try and prove other people wrong and try to demonstrate that you're right? Are you that insecure about your own opinions?
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