Why are we dropping the standards for Ole?

[Josep Dowling]

My point is he is the right man in the eyes of the club

Not in the eyes of fans.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Last season after the PSG result everyone was getting a bit carried away, this included the board. They rushed into a decision based on a run of about 12 games to make him full time manager. At that point it would have been very difficult to sack him in the summer after the bad run of form last season. That run of 'bad form' has now continued.

Take out the Chelsea game (and even then the performance was not a 4-0 result) we have been terrible and struggling to beat relegation battling Premier League teams since March now. That simply isn't good enough. It isn't down to bad luck not being about to beat Huddersfield, Cardiff & Crystal Palace all at home. There should be enough quality to beat those teams, that comes down to manager tactics as well as the players.

Add to that Ole's so called confidence in the youth that he sell half our squad and only 3 players come in. Regardless how bad some of those senior players were they are certainly better than most of our youth players currently. And after all his comments and praising of the likes of Greenwood have we seen any of them? Greenwood has had a cameo role in every Premier League game. Gomes and Chong aren't selected half the time. So what logic is there in selling Lukaku & Sanchez if the only option is Greenwood and then not selecting him? Even when Martial is injured. It would have made far more sense for Greenwood to play CF against Southampton rather than swapping around the entire front 3. It's terrible management by the manager and the board. And it's very difficult to judge if Solskjaer was happy with only 3 signings in the summer considering the 'happy with the squad' comments he keeps making in the press. If he is happy with our current group of players he should be sacked just for that as there is no chance this lot will achieve anything. And this comes back to the OP's original point, standards have dropped.

 

[Mr PG]

Problem with Ole is that he is actually detrimental to the team

Because we've finally realised that it's a root and branch job, and for jobs like that you don't hire mercs like Mourinho looking for a cop or two and the eventual settlement when he gets sacked.

Whatever you think of Ole, Maguire, AWB and James are proving to be very astute signings that fit even if he isn't the manager long term.

Anybody would have signed these players. Was a no-brainer and Mourinho was demanding same players except for James who was recommended by Giggs. A united committee decides the purchases anyway and Manager has minor input.

 

[GlastonSpur]

What's the last 16 games like for Pochettino? Guess Spurs should sack him too right?

Those 16 games have included playing in the CL final, an away draw against both City and Arsenal, and knocking both City and Ajax out of the CL over the course of 4 games.

Context is everything.

 

[bosnian_red]

Those 16 games have included playing in the CL final, an away draw against both City and Arsenal, and knocking both City and Ajax out of the CL over the course of 4 games.

Context is everything.

Yup, it is. Was purely replying to "any other manager with a run of results like that would get sacked" which is ridiculous to say, when its split over 2 seasons especially considering the context of each situation.

 

[MackRobinson]

At what point would you admit you're wrong and accept ole isnt the man for the job? Seriously.

2 years? 3 years? Top 6? Top 8?

Wrong about what? It's almost as if you aren't even bothering to read what you're responding too and just going through a list of talking points.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yup, it is. Was purely replying to "any other manager with a run of results like that would get sacked" which is ridiculous to say, when its split over 2 seasons especially considering the context of each situation.

Spurs won twice as many games compared to United (6 from 16) did during those 16 matches and they have secured CL football and played in CL final. United didn't and won only 3. How are those two situations even remotely comparable?

 

[bosnian_red]

Spurs won twice as many games compared to United (6 from 16) did during those 16 matches and they have secured CL football and played in CL final. United didn't and won only 3. How are those two situations even remotely comparable?

You sure about that one? Last 12 games from last season and 4 from this season?
2019/20:

• United 1W - 2D - 1L
• Spurs 1W - 2D - 1L

2018/19

• United 4W - 3D - 5L
• Spurs 3W - 2D - 7L

Total:

• United 5W - 5D - 6L (20 points)
• Spurs 4W - 4D - 8L (16 points)

 

[Garethw]

The same cycle is sacking another manager, starting again and expecting things to improve.

It’s only been 4 games let’s give it at least 6 hey

It’s not only four games though is it? Our form under him has been dog shit since March.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

That level of delusion is remarkable.

I can honestly say that's the most deluded, ridiculous Statement I've ever seen on any forum,ever.

"Force in midfield" hahahaha hahahaha!

That's a term to describe Kante at his league winning best!

That's the last time I read a post by that guy. Duly noted.

 

[romufc]

I don't think this is necessarily true. Last season after the PSG result everyone was getting a bit carried away, this included the board. They rushed into a decision based on a run of about 12 games to make him full time manager. At that point it would have been very difficult to sack him in the summer after the bad run of form last season. That run of 'bad form' has now continued.

Take out the Chelsea game (and even then the performance was not a 4-0 result) we have been terrible and struggling to beat relegation battling Premier League teams since March now. That simply isn't good enough. It isn't down to bad luck not being about to beat Huddersfield, Cardiff & Crystal Palace all at home. There should be enough quality to beat those teams, that comes down to manager tactics as well as the players.

Add to that Ole's so called confidence in the youth that he sell half our squad and only 3 players come in. Regardless how bad some of those senior players were they are certainly better than most of our youth players currently. And after all his comments and praising of the likes of Greenwood have we seen any of them? Greenwood has had a cameo role in every Premier League game. Gomes and Chong aren't selected half the time. So what logic is there in selling Lukaku & Sanchez if the only option is Greenwood and then not selecting him? Even when Martial is injured. It would have made far more sense for Greenwood to play CF against Southampton rather than swapping around the entire front 3. It's terrible management by the manager and the board. And it's very difficult to judge if Solskjaer was happy with only 3 signings in the summer considering the 'happy with the squad' comments he keeps making in the press. If he is happy with our current group of players he should be sacked just for that as there is no chance this lot will achieve anything. And this comes back to the OP's original point, standards have dropped.

I agree with most things you have said, but even after the PSG result you don't get the job without having an interview right? There would have been a chat with Ole and the board to discuss how he sees this team evolving and would have identified to Ed that he does not want Lukaku and Sanchez in the squad.

But you also would recall after Everton he said he wants 5 in and 5 out? and would prefer most of the work to be done before pre season? The Maguire signing looked like it won't happen and it looked like fan pressure also told then.

So if you are going to hire a manager, why not back him ? unless you are happy with below par results?

I don't think putting it all on Ole is far tbh, for all we know he wanted a midfielder and Forward but he didn't get any so he has no choice but to trust the youth.

 

[Enigma_87]

You sure about that one? Last 12 games from last season and 4 from this season?
2019/20:

• United 1W - 2D - 1L
• Spurs 1W - 2D - 1L

2018/19

• United 4W - 3D - 5L
• Spurs 3W - 2D - 7L

Total:

• United 5W - 5D - 6L (20 points)
• Spurs 4W - 4D - 8L (16 points)

As I said. Spurs have 6 wins in the last 16 games. Wins against Villa, City, Ajax, Brighton, Palace, Huddersfield.

United have won 3 games in 16. Chelsea, Watford and West Ham.

United lost 9 in the last 16. Barca x2, Wolves x2, Everton, City, Cardiff, Palace, Arsenal.

We drew 4. Soton, Wolves, Chelsea, Huddersfield.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

It’s not only four games though is it? Our form under him has been dog shit since March.

Don’t recall last season pal

 

[NoLogo]

Because people start to realize that it doesn't matter who the manager is as long as Woodward is in charge. Until Woodward is gone I won't even complain about our manager if we hire groundskeeper Willie to manage us.

 

[romufc]

Because people start to realize that it doesn't matter who the manager is as long as Woodward is in charge. Until Woodward is gone I won't even complain about our manager if we hire groundskeeper Willie to manage us.

Seems to be the feelings with fans who are looking for long term success.

But there is alot of fans on here who want instant success and want Ole gone, but as the previous 3 managers, it won't change a thing. You will be buying Ed another year of..

Oh the manager has just come in, not his squad, give him a transfer window. Ohh he isnt good enough sack him. This will be on repeat until majority of the fans realise it isn't the manager.

 

[bosnian_red]

As I said. Spurs have 6 wins in the last 16 games. Wins against Villa, City, Ajax, Brighton, Palace, Huddersfield.

United have won 3 games in 16. Chelsea, Watford and West Ham.

United lost 9 in the last 16. Barca x2, Wolves x2, Everton, City, Cardiff, Palace, Arsenal.

We drew 4. Soton, Wolves, Chelsea, Huddersfield.

Ah so we're now including CL games in this run. I see

Look, it's not a good run either way. You can go on and beat a dead horse about our finish to last season, I'll tell you it doesnt matter to me every time because it doesnt. Taking over half way through a season that was going as poorly as last season was is never a good barometer to judge someone off of, and that's why this season is a fresh start for everyone. Will Ole win titles here? Probably not. But he has the job, and I will always say that what he did last season should have no bearing on how he's judged. What he should be judged on is this year. And we're 4 games into this year. So give it some time before pulling out runs of form during a specific time frame that other clubs are having equally shit runs in.

 

[bosnian_red]

It’s not only four games though is it? Our form under him has been dog shit since March.

Ignore last season. It seriously has no relevance on anything because of the situation. By the same logic, he shouldnt have gotten the permanent job based on last season, but he did, so we have to look at this season as a fresh start for him just like we'd look at it as a fresh start no matter who took over last season. We tried to salvage the season, got close, but then collapsed at the end. We are drastically different from what we were a year ago IMO, and that's why I think all we can do is give it some time to see how it's going. If 4 games is all you need to decide there's no hope, then go ahead and be miserable. But there's plenty of reasons to be cautiously optimistic IMO, and plenty to suggest we're on the way up. Dont personally think he'll win us titles, but I'll take progress for now and see where it takes us.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ah so we're now including CL games in this run. I see

Look, it's not a good run either way. You can go on and beat a dead horse about our finish to last season, I'll tell you it doesnt matter to me every time because it doesnt. Taking over half way through a season that was going as poorly as last season was is never a good barometer to judge someone off of, and that's why this season is a fresh start for everyone. Will Ole win titles here? Probably not. But he has the job, and I will always say that what he did last season should have no bearing on how he's judged. What he should be judged on is this year. And we're 4 games into this year. So give it some time before pulling out runs of form during a specific time frame that other clubs are having equally shit runs in.

Well of course you would include CL games. Why wouldn't you? They are still competitive games and have massive impact in ones team on league form.

9 losses out of 16 games and 3 wins in 16 , along with 1 clean sheet in 20 is probably one of the worst runs any top tier club can muster in the top leagues.

Our form has been dogshite since March. We're not taking away any games either to make it an "arbitrary" time period. We saw Watford axing their manager for a continuous poor form that took place since last year. Still competitive games that shouldn't be overlooked.

Especially when the manager in question has no history of overturning that form and bouncing back from defeats, despite having been a manager since a decade.

4 games into this year wasn't a fresh start for Javi Gracia was it?

If we ignore last season and the initial good run Ole wouldn't have got the job in the first place.

Those 10 games or so are the sole reason for him being a permanent manager.

 

[sunama]

His 3 signings are our 3 best players, and will all probably spend the rest of their careers here. Scott McT has gone from a guy who Jose would start 2 or 3 times per season, to an undroppable midfield force. Greenwood will soon be a starter worth 80 million. Garner will be worth 80 million in a year or two if he avoids injuries. We're a Declan Rice and a Jadon Sancho away from being a nailed on top 4 team again.

But hey, we could have just hired some fashionable coach like Allegri and spent 500 million on a quick fix, and brought in Willian for 80 million instead of James...... Oh wait that sounds familiar

This has to be a Liverpool fan, taking the piss out of us.

 

[roonster09]

Look, it's not a good run either way. You can go on and beat a dead horse about our finish to last season, I'll tell you it doesnt matter to me every time because it doesnt. Taking over half way through a season that was going as poorly as last season was is never a good barometer to judge someone off of, and that's why this season is a fresh start for everyone. Will Ole win titles here? Probably not. But he has the job, and I will always say that what he did last season should have no bearing on how he's judged. What he should be judged on is this year. And we're 4 games into this year. So give it some time before pulling out runs of form during a specific time frame that other clubs are having equally shit runs in.

4 games into this year wasn't a fresh start for Javi Gracia was it?

Javi Garcia also took over mid season in 2017-18 season and he wasn't sacked when he got bad results from Jan. He took over on Jan 21st,

In league - 14 games - 4 wins and 7 losses.
FA cup - 1 game - 1 loss.

In total - 15 games - 4 wins - 8 losses.

He wasn't even close to the sack. He was sacked only after he had full season and then few games into next season.

 

[sunama]

Even if the above is true. I dont trust a 5 year rebuilt plan on the hands of a manager that cant even finish top 6 managing manchester united all things considered.

Used to be top 4. But since its ole i give him plus 2 handicap

Standards have dropped and the worrying thing is that standards may drop further.
Fret not, if things do get worse, Ole will be fired and we'll hit the reset button once again and will be back to square one.
Meanwhile Woodward who is consistently failing, is getting a free pass.
It feels at times that I am the only one calling Woodward out for his failings? While he remains our DoF, we won't improve, regardless of which manager is in charge.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Standards have dropped and the worrying thing is that standards may drop further.
Fret not, if things do get worse, Ole will be fired and we'll hit the reset button once again and will be back to square one.
Meanwhile Woodward who is consistently failing, is getting a free pass.
It feels at times that I am the only one calling Woodward out for his failings? While he remains our DoF, we won't improve, regardless of which manager is in charge.

Your not on your own pal, he is who needs to go or step away from the football side. Until then it’s like that Tom cruise film Edge of tomorrow following united.

 

[romufc]

Standards have dropped and the worrying thing is that standards may drop further.
Fret not, if things do get worse, Ole will be fired and we'll hit the reset button once again and will be back to square one.
Meanwhile Woodward who is consistently failing, is getting a free pass.
It feels at times that I am the only one calling Woodward out for his failings? While he remains our DoF, we won't improve, regardless of which manager is in charge.

I am with you on this. It makes 0 sense to sack the manager. It makes sense for the fans because new manager, optimism, yaaay we might get to spend this summer. But same old story.

Ed Woodward is playing with us, playing with the club. Nothing will change until majority of fans realise it is NOT the manager, until then we will be doing what we are now.

 

[Enigma_87]

Javi Garcia also took over mid season in 2017-18 season and he wasn't sacked when he got bad results from Jan. He took over on Jan 21st,

In league - 14 games - 4 wins and 7 losses.
FA cup - 1 game - 1 loss.

In total - 15 games - 4 wins - 8 losses.

He wasn't even close to the sack. He was sacked only after he had full season and then few games into next season.

The point was they no doubt took last season results into consideration and didn't sack him on the basis of 4 games alone. The full season angle is different argument altogether.

 

[Sky1981]

Wrong about what? It's almost as if you aren't even bothering to read what you're responding too and just going through a list of talking points.

So ole for life?

 

[roonster09]

The point was they no doubt took last season results into consideration and didn't sack him on the basis of 4 games alone. The full season angle is different argument altogether.

Its not different argument. They sacked him as he had 1 full season and didn't see much progress. He had similar run of form when he took over midseason and he wasn't sacked back then.

 

[romufc]

Its not different argument. They sacked him as he had 1 full season and didn't see much progress. He had similar run of form when he took over midseason and he wasn't sacked back then.

It is different for fans who want Ole sacked.

 

[Enigma_87]

Its not different argument. They sacked him as he had 1 full season and didn't see much progress. He had similar run of form when he took over midseason and he wasn't sacked back then.

Top clubs usually have less patience and release managers even without lasting a full season.

Di Matteo won CL and took Chelsea midseason the year before, yet he was sent packing soon after.

 

[Enigma_87]

It is different for fans who want Ole sacked.

Fans want the club to do better than 3 wins from 16 games. Perhaps not relegation threatened clubs of course, but even mid table ones would want to improve and would release the manager.

Be honest if Ole wasn't United legend but this was Moyes at helm - same style of play, same state of the squad, would you want him gone or give him couple of seasons more?

 

[roonster09]

Top clubs usually have less patience and release managers even without lasting a full season.

Di Matteo won CL and took Chelsea midseason the year before, yet he was sent packing soon after.

And still we didn't sack Jose when he won 1 league game in 2 months or 2 league games in 3 months. Same with Van Gaal.

Not all clubs give same time to managers.

 

[Enigma_87]

And still we didn't sack Jose when he won 1 league game in 2 months or 2 league games in 3 months. Same with Van Gaal.

Not all clubs give same time to managers.

Which is the thread about. Sadly we aren't a top club anymore or at least our standards doesn't align with the top clubs.

Getting a mediocre manager who on the other hand achieves mediocre results, yet our balance sheet doesn't get hit is not that bad deal for the owners.

 

[bosnian_red]

Well of course you would include CL games. Why wouldn't you? They are still competitive games and have massive impact in ones team on league form.

9 losses out of 16 games and 3 wins in 16 , along with 1 clean sheet in 20 is probably one of the worst runs any top tier club can muster in the top leagues.

Our form has been dogshite since March. We're not taking away any games either to make it an "arbitrary" time period. We saw Watford axing their manager for a continuous poor form that took place since last year. Still competitive games that shouldn't be overlooked.

Especially when the manager in question has no history of overturning that form and bouncing back from defeats, despite having been a manager since a decade.

4 games into this year wasn't a fresh start for Javi Gracia was it?

If we ignore last season and the initial good run Ole wouldn't have got the job in the first place.

Those 10 games or so are the sole reason for him being a permanent manager.

Javi Garcia also took over mid season in 2017-18 season and he wasn't sacked when he got bad results from Jan. He took over on Jan 21st,

In league - 14 games - 4 wins and 7 losses.
FA cup - 1 game - 1 loss.

In total - 15 games - 4 wins - 8 losses.

He wasn't even close to the sack. He was sacked only after he had full season and then few games into next season.

First of all, why the feck are people taking Watford as some sort of standard? They're one of the most ridiculous clubs when it comes to sacking managers. They just rehired the guy they sacked before Gracia was there ffs. Laughable.

Also 10 or so games? Fecking come on. First of all, its 15 games, not 16 games (16 would include PSG away which you're purposely excluding). So if we're looking before that, he had 14 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss (with the 1 loss being in the knockout rounds where we went through anyway). And you're fully ignoring our 17 games last season where we were showing title winning form, and instead focusing on a 11 game spell at the end of last season where we were bound to go down a little after a brilliant 17 game run, which coincided with playing Barcelona twice, City, Arsenal away, wolves away twice, Everton away, leading to a drop in form/confidence and the season being lost leading to further shit results against shit teams. Look at it all together if you want to use last season, or ignore it all together. Its complete bullshit to ignore a fecking 17 game run before a drop off happened, and instead only look at the drop off.

This is why I'm just choosing to ignore last season. It was an impossible situation he took over, everyone at the time said he has a free pass essentially and anything would be good. He performed miracles in the first 3 months, and then the run got halted and we struggled to pick back up again. This season, he had a chance to have an impact on the shape of his squad (and did a lot in the summer in terms of turnover and starting the incoming transfers), he's giving promising youth bigger roles, he had a pre season to get his messages across and work on how he actually wants to play (very hard to do mid season with 2 games every week), etc. This season is where we can start properly judging him as a Manchester United manager, because last season was so unique and not relevant to how he'll do here in so many ways.

 

[roonster09]

Which is the thread about. Sadly we aren't a top club anymore or at least our standards doesn't align with the top clubs.

Getting a mediocre manager who on the other hand achieves mediocre results, yet our balance sheet doesn't get hit is not that bad deal for the owners.

No, this thread is about dropping standards for Ole when it isn't the case. We always gave time to managers.

 

[roonster09]

First of all, why the feck are people taking Watford as some sort of standard?

Forget Watford, when any club sacks their manager, it will be used against Ole.

 

[Enigma_87]

First of all, why the feck are people taking Watford as some sort of standard? They're one of the most ridiculous clubs when it comes to sacking managers. They just rehired the guy they sacked before Gracia was there ffs. Laughable.

Also 10 or so games? Fecking come on. First of all, its 15 games, not 16 games (16 would include PSG away which you're purposely excluding). So if we're looking before that, he had 14 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss (with the 1 loss being in the knockout rounds where we went through anyway). And you're fully ignoring our 17 games last season where we were showing title winning form, and instead focusing on a 11 game spell at the end of last season where we were bound to go down a little after a brilliant 17 game run, which coincided with playing Barcelona twice, City, Arsenal away, wolves away twice, Everton away, leading to a drop in form/confidence and the season being lost leading to further shit results against shit teams. Look at it all together if you want to use last season, or ignore it all together. Its complete bullshit to ignore a fecking 17 game run before a drop off happened, and instead only look at the drop off.

This is why I'm just choosing to ignore last season. It was an impossible situation he took over, everyone at the time said he has a free pass essentially and anything would be good. He performed miracles in the first 3 months, and then the run got halted and we struggled to pick back up again. This season, he had a chance to have an impact on the shape of his squad (and did a lot in the summer in terms of turnover and starting the incoming transfers), he's giving promising youth bigger roles, he had a pre season to get his messages across and work on how he actually wants to play (very hard to do mid season with 2 games every week), etc. This season is where we can start properly judging him as a Manchester United manager, because last season was so unique and not relevant to how he'll do here in so many ways.

Mate, we played 4 games this year.

That's 12 games from the previous season. 2 in CL, 1 in FA cup, 9 in Prem makes it 16.

 

[bosnian_red]

Mate, we played 4 games this year.

That's 12 games from the previous season. 2 in CL, 1 in FA cup, 9 in Prem makes it 16.

1. Psg
2. Arsenal
3. Wolves
4. Watford
5. Barca
6. West ham
7. Barca
8. Everton
9. Man city
10. Chelsea
11. Huddersfield
12. Cardiff

Maybe check the facts next time? Either way, irrelevant, which my overall point is anyway. Dumb as feck to ignore a 17 game run but instead focus on a 12 game run with hard as feck fixtures with non-premier league games.

 

[Enigma_87]

1. Psg
2. Arsenal
3. Wolves
4. Watford
5. Barca
6. West ham
7. Barca
8. Everton
9. Man city
10. Chelsea
11. Huddersfield
12. Cardiff

Maybe check the facts next time? Either way, irrelevant, which my overall point is anyway. Dumb as feck to ignore a 17 game run but instead focus on a 12 game run with hard as feck fixtures with non-premier league games.

I did.

I advise you to do the same.

Here's a hint:
16 March 2019 Quarter-finals Wolverhampton Wanderers A

 

[jem]

Just because Watford do that, doesn't mean we should follow suit.

Especially when you consider that they are replacing Gracia with a manager they fired somewhat hastily several years ago.

 

[romufc]

Fans want the club to do better than 3 wins from 16 games. Perhaps not relegation threatened clubs of course, but even mid table ones would want to improve and would release the manager.

Be honest if Ole wasn't United legend but this was Moyes at helm - same style of play, same state of the squad, would you want him gone or give him couple of seasons more?

Id give Ole till end of season. with simple instructions.. top 4 or sack.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Id give Ole till end of season. with simple instructions.. top 4 or sack.

Could probably sue for something, targets need to be realistic

 

[billybee99]

Its not different argument. They sacked him as he had 1 full season and didn't see much progress. He had similar run of form when he took over midseason and he wasn't sacked back then.

He was the manager of fecking WATFORD. You're arguing on behalf of Ole by comparing his numbers to the manager of WATFORD. If all that is to be expected of a Manchester United manager is to match the likes of Garcia, then maybe you or I should be manager. He has 3 wins in 16; that is very, very alarming. I'd like to give him another summer window to buy Sancho and bring in a couple of midfielders but if this present form continues past October and leaks into November, he would have to go.
Every other manager has gotten the sack for missing the Champions League so why is Ole not held to the same standard? His supporters keep mentioning the "mess" that he inherited from Jose. Well what about the mess that Jose inherited from LVG or the 7th place stink bomb that LVG inherited from DM? Any new manager is going to inherit a big problem. The previous manager is rarely sacked because he was doing a great job and everything is fantastic with the squad. Every new manager has a massive task on his hands but some of the Ole supporters who have you think that he's in a unique situation. He's done a great job selling off players and his summer purchases look excellent so I hope these first 4 games are just a blip and not a continuation of last years bad run.