A couple of signings at the back will improve them a lot because their football is good already, they create many chances each game
Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?
- Thread starter Fortitude
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Are they allowed to sign anyone in January?
Nope. We might try to appeal but I don't think so.
We've got Rudiger to come back in and Reece James will start getting appearances at right back so I think we're decently stocked in defence.
Chelsea have a far bigger & better squad than we have. By all rights they really should be challenging Tottenham for Top 3. It's easy to play fluid attacking football when you have the personnel to do so. Less so when you have to rely on Andreas Pereira, Juan Mata and Daniel James to carry your attack. The transfer ban literally doesn't matter. Even after losing Hazard they are in contention of having a Top 3 squad in the PL.
Despite Chelsea having a transfer ban and losing Hazard I think their squad is better than Utd’s. Ole has more managerial experience and the benefit of half a season working with his squad. But I’m still struggling to see what his plan is, whereas with Lampard it’s been clear since day one, despite that being a drubbing at Old Trafford.
For next season.
Lampard have got Chelsea playing some good football, but they have better footballers than us, especially in midfield. If you think about players like Jorginho, Barkley, Kante, Kovacic, Mount, they are all technically very good. Not necessarily players to get stuck in if it gets tough (apart from Kante), which is probably why they're a bit soft centrered, but players who will get on the ball and make them play.
Us, on the other hand, have more grafters than technicians. Fred, Matic, McTominay, Pereira, Lingard, Pogba. Again, apart from Pogba, who is our only creative spark, everyone are workers.
Think that's where we need to find a balance, and the positive that Ole seems to be sticking with a 4231, means he can identify the type of midfielder we need to compliment others.
Lets start getting some cultured footballers in our team.
Us, on the other hand, have more grafters than technicians. Fred, Matic, McTominay, Pereira, Lingard, Pogba. Again, apart from Pogba, who is our only creative spark, everyone are workers.
Think that's where we need to find a balance, and the positive that Ole seems to be sticking with a 4231, means he can identify the type of midfielder we need to compliment others.
Lets start getting some cultured footballers in our team.
You cherry-picked Pereira, Mata and James, albeit James is doing rather good. Lampard also has a lot of dross in his team and he's also putting his money where his mouth is with Abraham, Mount, Tomori and the other youth. Of course it helps that he actually has a plan how to set up his players and have them execute his ideas.
We will see at seasons end, although frank far more likely to see out season of course
Honestly, if we had our full compliment of injured players fit I think we easily have the 3rd best squad in the league. Unfortunately for us the injuries are coming in the exact areas that lead us to concede lots of goals at the moment. Kante, Rüdiger, and Emerson are our 3 best/most important defensive minded players and they're all out or will be out for lengthy spells.
But I think we've actually improved our squad considerably from last season despite losing our best player and not spending a pound. Tammy, Mount, and Tomori have seamlessly slotted in and become undroppable whilst CHO and Reece James have just come back and both made instant impacts. Then we still have RLC to eventually return and Pulisic who needs time to settle in.
It kind of just feels like we at Chelsea have more to be excited about than you guys do. Doesn't mean we'll be better come the end of the season necessarily.
But I think we've actually improved our squad considerably from last season despite losing our best player and not spending a pound. Tammy, Mount, and Tomori have seamlessly slotted in and become undroppable whilst CHO and Reece James have just come back and both made instant impacts. Then we still have RLC to eventually return and Pulisic who needs time to settle in.
It kind of just feels like we at Chelsea have more to be excited about than you guys do. Doesn't mean we'll be better come the end of the season necessarily.
If the new manager bounce is fact as we are told it was with Ole then is this his new manager bounce? could get very hairy later in the year if so
In terms of results, we've not really had much of a "bounce". There's plenty to be optimistic about but not any unexpected results.
Another comparison thread loss for us.
Still early doors. Obviously looking better for Super Frank right now but plenty of the season left.
Lampard would have been sacked by now if he was in Ole's situation. Perhaps Emery too.
I think Frank will have the better season
The difference is that Lampard already has Chelsea playing with an identity, and this was the same at Derby.
Ole has had longer and there is still no visible identity for his side.
More credit to Lampard for setting this up so quickly even after the loss of (IMO) the best player in the league.
Correct. We had a good, albeoit not a brilliant start. We could still end up with 6 wins, 6 draws and 6 losses after 18 games, which would not be terrible but also nothing to gloat about. Still the number of minutes the Chelsea youth have racked up is mighty impressive.
What, you did not like his start? Man United were a points machine he initially took over. This development is new - and caused by the fact he was not backed in the summer. Also you have to feel for every manager that has to field Rashford as the No1-attacker.
The real difference is Lampard has a better set of players to choose from and is continuing exactly as he left off at Derby. Being at Chelsea as a player is also helpful to him but this is not always the case.
He has a striker who played in the Championship scoring goals compared to one who has Prem experience.?
Why is being a former Chelsea player helpful for Lampard, but being a former United player isn't helpful for Ole? I assume that's what you were suggesting.
This is hardly a “told you so” thread bump, I think it was quite clear and a lot of us called it. Didn’t think Ole would be this bad though.
What are the stats regarding the early form? (Legit question).
I'd consider that the dead cat bounce at this point.
Not backed? He spent nearly £150 million!
Fans really need to get over this not backed thing, we spent the 2nd most in the transfer window.
Our problem is that our squad is very thin at the moment. The signings we made are good ones, just not nearly enough of them. It will take long time, until after the January window , before we can string four wins in a row together, I believe.
I also feel he wasn't backed I actually think he was stitched up in the window BUT the development as you call it is not new... This downturn in form started around the PSG fixture.
I'm looking like a fool because I was 100% sure Chelsea would be where we are at in the table and we'd be around 5th or 6th pushing for 4th. Injuries has been hard on us but Chelsea still looks like the better coached side. Solskjær had the head start in terms of preparation and he had the transfer window and still Lampard seems to make it all click.
I'm looking forward seeing if Martial is the key to making us a winning side again. Or can Pogba make us flourish? We've looking pretty week even with him in the lineup ever since Solskjær signed his permenant contract. We have 8 out of 10 relatively winnable games coming up. Liverpool and Chelsea being the teams that'll probably give us a solid punch on the nose.
I'm looking forward seeing if Martial is the key to making us a winning side again. Or can Pogba make us flourish? We've looking pretty week even with him in the lineup ever since Solskjær signed his permenant contract. We have 8 out of 10 relatively winnable games coming up. Liverpool and Chelsea being the teams that'll probably give us a solid punch on the nose.
Yep, was an easy call. He outsmarted us with Derby. He wasnt necessarily incredibly great at Derby, but he made them play good football in a short period. Something Ole hasnt done at Cardiff and here neither.
G.Neville went into this last night. When you factor in the amount of money saved/gained from selling Lukaku and Fellaini, and having their wages off the bill alongside Alexis' (partially), Herrera's, and Smalling's wages, we only really put £40m or so into the transfer window just gone. It was nowhere near enough.
Yep, that's the big difference. It is for me, anyway.
As someone who watches more lower level football than Premiership football, I gotta tell ya: Lampard's football at Derby was not that entertaining.
Certainly not compared to Brentford under Thomas Frank, or Villa under Dean Smith (who were just plain fun to watch under Steve Bruce's personnel). Even Bristol City under Lee Johnson I felt played better football than Derby's Lampard, who were far from boring, but were often a bit disjointed in their attacking play.
None of this is a criticism of Lampard, who is obviously still at the stage of his career where he is progressing as a manager, and will be for a few years yet.
At this point this is not a contest at all.
This whole thing is funny now when you check posts after game vs Chelsea.
Tbf the transfer ban might have been a blessing in disguise. You got 1 year to stabilize the players, play the youngster, and come next year Lampard will have a clearer idea on who he needs to buy
Chelsea's starting XI at the weekend
---------------Kepa---------------
Azpilicueta--Zouma--Tomori--Alonso
----------Kante----Jorginho----------
Willian--------Mount---------CHO
-------------Abraham-------------
I did wonder if Chelsea were just benefiting of their being a freshness to their XI, 7 of the above 11 have only been in Chelsea first team for a year and in a few cases this season alone and with that freshness comes to not having their heads filled with piss poor management years prior however look at our XI this past weekend
-------------De Gea-------------
Dalot--Tuanzebe--Maguire--Young
----McTominay----Fred----
Andreas------Mata------James
------------Rashford------------
6 of our 11 have only been around for a year or less so really not a huge disparity between us and Chelsea there, I think the most telling thing between those two XI's is the quality. I'd say Azpilicueta, Alonso, Kante, Jorginho, Mount & Willian all walk into our XI at present and they'll obviously be arguments that Abraham and CHO do as well
I'd love to think that when we get the injured players back they'll make a difference but the negativity around the place right now will just bring them down as soon as they return I suspect
---------------Kepa---------------
Azpilicueta--Zouma--Tomori--Alonso
----------Kante----Jorginho----------
Willian--------Mount---------CHO
-------------Abraham-------------
I did wonder if Chelsea were just benefiting of their being a freshness to their XI, 7 of the above 11 have only been in Chelsea first team for a year and in a few cases this season alone and with that freshness comes to not having their heads filled with piss poor management years prior however look at our XI this past weekend
-------------De Gea-------------
Dalot--Tuanzebe--Maguire--Young
----McTominay----Fred----
Andreas------Mata------James
------------Rashford------------
6 of our 11 have only been around for a year or less so really not a huge disparity between us and Chelsea there, I think the most telling thing between those two XI's is the quality. I'd say Azpilicueta, Alonso, Kante, Jorginho, Mount & Willian all walk into our XI at present and they'll obviously be arguments that Abraham and CHO do as well
I'd love to think that when we get the injured players back they'll make a difference but the negativity around the place right now will just bring them down as soon as they return I suspect
Ole will not see out the month.
Is it not true that the manager wanted these players gone?
It was not as though Ed said sell Lukaku, Sanchez to get Maguire?
Nah he's just got them them playing better, people would have called you crazy if you said Abraham was better than Rashford etc, that squad he fielded against United on the opening day got laughed at and branded the worst Chelsea side in recent history. Yet in the weeks following his young players have responded so well that 4 of them find themselves in the England squad.
Exactly, it is all about coaching. The funny thing is Ole keeps telling us he trusts youth.. but this isn't exactly true. From our young team, McT, Rash, Martial, Shaw were all established prior to Ole's arrival.
James is a new signing and AWB and the later is proven in PL.
He has given Greenwood a chance but apart from that, no one really. Gomes and Chong have been getting chances in EL and the cup.
Everyone keeps telling me Greenwood is too young he is only 18 and it isn't the right environment to start? But it is the right environment to use him after 60 mins?
Lampard has given the youth confidence - Mount, Tomori, Abraham in particular.
Mount and Abraham were criticised at OT and Lampard stuck with them, I don't think Ole is giving the same confidence to our youngsters because they all seem to think every opportunity they get they need to impress hence force things that are not natural to them.