Is Pogba as good as gone?

MikeKing

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2017
Messages
5,125
Supports
Bournemouth
I think such accusations are unjustified,
Of course they are. But its what happens when you have an important player that seems to want to leave, especially when that player is a top player but without really convincing us that he has the consistency in his contributions to be treated as such, and we're kept wondering why isn't he performing more consistently? Everything from there is guess work either way, that much we agreed on. I'm just saying especially now when he wants to leave I totally get why more fans have come to the conclusion that it would be fine, and can't be bothered and takes the high road. I totally get that, because you care about the club and not about the individuals who wants to leave. It is just a basic reaction to something, and I think most fans will be in that category. But if your point is strictly against those who treat him unfairly based on racism, prejudice, media influence etc. then I've nothing to argue against. If you're thinking of Gary Neville while we write, no wonder I don't get it.

The quality of his performances should have no bearing as to whether or not he’s feigning injury, or represents ‘the worst about modern day football’, as I’ve read. Again, my assertion is that ultimately, I believe the detachment from Pogba the person (and subsequently, Pogba the player IMO) is largely based upon a mischaracterising of him as someone who is not really one of us, is selfish, a diva and has been planning to go to Real Madrid since the day he arrived. I think much of that, at least until the comments of the summer, were both wrong and also out of Paul Pogba’s hands, as there is little justification of such feelings based upon his actions. Given that there is a pattern of such feelings, which span beyond Pogba to pretty much all top tier players who either sign with us or are linked to us, my belief is that the greater issue is the insecurity of the fans themselves, who seemingly don’t REALLY think their chick is as hot as they make out, when it comes down to it.
Your view of the detachment from Pogba in it self is speculative, imo. As I said, he could have been planning to go to Madrid from the start and if he performed here people would give a rats ass about him leaving, they would love him. Hence why I'm insisting the relevance of performance. I'm talking about the general fans here, not the nut jobs. I don't find any evidence for the pattern you suggest here either, just more speculation based on your reading of opinions here, making it a pattern to fit your view. Again, this is where you lose me. How exactly is insecurity of fans a problem, for who? Suggesting our players don't improve due to this? I think we've all made a decision to love this bitch for the rest of our lives and whoever don't like it can suck a d. We protect the vision we have for our love, no? A few idiots are being idiots of that reason, sure, but mostly this is a domestic issue not the cause of a public epidemic effecting solid marriages throughout the land and beyond.

Before any of these performances you speak of, the same fans dismissed any chance of Pogba returning to us in a way they did not dismiss the idea that Harry Maguire would want to join us in the summer. And it will continue to happen if we pursue a superstar. It will always make ‘more sense’ to many for them to join another big club than this one. The underdog talents, who are not as glamorous and can maybe be developed well - those are ‘Manchester United players’. After all, ‘we don’t buy superstars, we make them’. In Pogba’s case, we actually bought one, and he’s been treated with distrust, which has often led to disdain, from the very beginning.
Not sure about this either. Seems you're generalising. If Maguire was distrusted from his involvement with an agent or simply just a much better player, you say we would all be negative towards him now because of it? I don't get it, people are upset about him now in fact, due to performances and price, same as Pogba. If he doesn't improve and his camp sends messages he wants to leave, and different things do you think he wont get criticised for that? How come? Maybe not from Gary Neville but the average fan, sure. He'll have haters galore if that happens. I get the sentiment about we make superstars and not to buy them, but that stems from our previous transfers too, it's not all about Pogba you know.

It's about expectations too and how the fans react to not seeing results in the way we have been doing things. I get a lot of your points and agree with much of it but specifically this about fans hating superstars, being insecure as a fanbase etc. has been developed recently in your mind right? Not something you thought much about before caring this much about Pogba? Probably that is because fans haven't had that thought from the beginning either, it has been developed, not only from Pogba turning out as he did but different things. So those comments you've read to form that point specifically probably shouldn't be used to explain the reason you think fans generally are the real issue behind Pogba being under-appreciated or unfairly treated. If you said media suck, or idiots are idiots, I'd be right behind you.

You keep saying that I am not acknowledging the link between performances and treatment, but I don’t think you are acknowledging the link between how performances are analysed and how the player is seen as a person. And again, even speaking performances, his are better than the rest and he’s criticised disproportionately. He was in the team of the season last year, and on this forum, the focus is constantly on whatever it is people feel he can’t do rather than the considerable that he can. Look at Scott McTominay. There is a lot he cannot do as a top level CM. There’s a large section of fans who acknowledge these things, but prefer to focus on the two or so things that he does quite well. We like him.
I used to think he was criticised disproportionally at the beginning, and I'm aware he has not had an easy ride to develop himself at United, but at one point you have to hold your hands up and admit that he isn't good enough. He is our most talented player, by far, but not our best performer the last years. He was really good last year, and if he had kicked on this season I probably wouldn't be in here arguing. Yes, he has been injured but thats part of it too I think. It is just my reaction to his performances. Pogba can do incredible things, the problem is that he doesn't do any of it consistently enough to have been considered our best performer, our best player these last years.

Based on the last part of the season he was our best player, based on his talent he is our best player, but he hasn't been our best performer. If you want to judge McTominay on the same criteria as Pogba that is on you. I have higher expectations of Lindelof than Jones. Just because Jones is still around doesn't mean that because Lindelof is more talented that he can walk around not defending, and we can in fact praise Jones for coming in and perform better than Lindelof without thinking he must be freakin' Duncan Edwards, and it still won't make Lindelof better in that game just because you're comparing him with a lesser talented player.
 
Last edited:

SadlerMUFC

Thinks for himself
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
5,746
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
Well he’s only played a couple of games this season. He should not have constantly been in the situation of trying to win over the supporters since he’s been here. They are supposed to be his supporters. And the outrage with his performances I’m reading here is odd, and the exaggeration is taking on a life of its own. I wonder what people must feel when watching others. This is a player who made the PL team of the season. He’s not been rubbish for us by a long, long way.
He made the premier league team of the season based on his stats. Which were good. The problem is that for every great performance he has, he follows it up with a stinker. Fans are frustrated with him because we all know just how great he could be. He has the talent to be one of the best in the world. Problem is there are far too many games where he just looks like he doesn't care. He got out done by Mark f*cking Noble ffs...
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
He made the premier league team of the season based on his stats. Which were good. The problem is that for every great performance he has, he follows it up with a stinker. Fans are frustrated with him because we all know just how great he could be. He has the talent to be one of the best in the world. Problem is there are far too many games where he just looks like he doesn't care. He got out done by Mark f*cking Noble ffs...
Nah, fans are frustrated with him because they expect him way too much from him. There hasn't been a player who's had the same expectations placed on his shoulders at United in a long long time. Basically asking and hoping for him to be a player he's never been. He has his faults don't get me wrong, he has talent without a doubt but he's not a player who was ever gonna one of the best in the world consistently. It's been three years, time to lower the bar of expectation with him
 

SadlerMUFC

Thinks for himself
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
5,746
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
Nah, fans are frustrated with him because they expect him way too much from him. There hasn't been a player who's had the same expectations placed on his shoulders at United in a long long time. Basically asking and hoping for him to be a player he's never been. He has his faults don't get me wrong, he has talent without a doubt but he's not a player who was ever gonna one of the best in the world consistently. It's been three years, time to lower the bar of expectation with him
The talent is there to be one of the best of the world. Unfortunately for him, the bar will never be lowered on the effort the fans expect from all of our players. We have a lot of players who try hard and just aren't good enough. Pogba is more than good enough but lacks the effort...
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
The talent is there to be one of the best of the world. Unfortunately for him, the bar will never be lowered on the effort the fans expect from all of our players. We have a lot of players who try hard and just aren't good enough. Pogba is more than good enough but lacks the effort...
In some instances yeah but to be truly one of the best in the world, you need consistency months after months. Pogba isn't a youngster, what you see is what you get. The expectation on his shoulders is ridiculous.
There have been countless examples of ridiculously talented players who have always given the impression they didn't exploit their talent consistently. Pogba wouldn't be the first one and won't be the last one
 

Crashoutcassius

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
10,295
Location
playa del carmen
Jist heard on a podcast Ben foster has as many shots on target this season as pogba... hard to believe there are posters who refuse to say he has been very bad
 

doriandun

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
169
Talent alone is fruitless, you have to put in the hard graft.

Ask yourselves how is it the Jorginho and Kovacic, can play as a two in midfield, neither would be placed in the bracket of the conventional all round midfielder or destroyer. Kovacic has Pogba albilty to make runs from deep and play balls thru the line, and Jorginho has Pogba ability to spray passes.

You really do have to wonder sometimes, why so many conditions are required for Pogba to perform.

Pogba is like a good portion of our squad stealng a living, this comes from poor character [upbring and enviroment], an ugly attribute to have, in the real world this attitude, is why so many people are not a success in their chosen field.

In a nutshell 'The lack of work ethic.....'

It's the same with Rashford,Martial,Linguard,Luke Shaw, who do not take the time, to improve their craft or understanding of the game.

Rashford needs to improve his runs and decision making skills, how to use his movement to create space on the pitch, come short, make runs in behind, just link play.
Martial similar to Rashford, the funny thing is he has football intelligence, but lacks the will power to use it for his own and the team benefit.
Linguard, quinessentially, the link man, the glue that keeps the ship transistioning from defence to attack, with better care and appreciation with the weight of his passess, better decsion making, taking time to improve his shooting.
Luke Shaw's bread and butter is defending, no what fad is currently in the market, if the foundations are not right, the whole thing comes tumbling down.

There are so many players in history that the above can model themselves on to improve their game.

Martial and Rashford can look at Thiery Henry,Robben,D Duff,Drogba, The Brazillian Ronaldo
Linguard - players like Grezimann or T Muller
Luke Shaw - Ashley Cole, Bixante [french left back]
 

Eric's Seagull

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
3,707
Location
4-4-2: The Flat One
What is this mysterious 'ankle injury' that's (conveniently) ruled him out until the January transfer window? There's been very little information released regarding it - and usually long term ankle injuries need some form of surgery.

Personally I don't think it exists and it's purely a stalling tactic so he can leave. The whole situation shares a lot of similarities with the Lukaku exit. It's clear he doesn't want to be here, his agent was also mouthing off over the summer and I think we begged him to stay.

I think he's a goner come January.
Interesting take it. Never thought of it that way. Could well be possible. Don't know whether the club would let him leave in January but if he doesn't leave then I think he will definitely leave in the summer.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
half his shots last year were off target
No they weren't. Last season he had 105 shots of which 26 were off target, 50 on target and 29 blocked, that's a fairly normal line of stat outside of the total amount of shots that he took. Currently Salah has 37 shots, 9 off target 17 on target and 11 blocked. De Bruyne has 25 shots, 15 off target, 4 on target and 6 blocked.
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
3,198
Nah, fans are frustrated with him because they expect him way too much from him. There hasn't been a player who's had the same expectations placed on his shoulders at United in a long long time. Basically asking and hoping for him to be a player he's never been. He has his faults don't get me wrong, he has talent without a doubt but he's not a player who was ever gonna one of the best in the world consistently. It's been three years, time to lower the bar of expectation with him
No one is going to be the best in the world at current United, but Pogba definitely had the talent to be one of the best. He showcased it before he came here.

He got the golden boy, team of the year, fifpro 11, best young player, etc. All things which point to being very good in future.
 
Last edited:

SadlerMUFC

Thinks for himself
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
5,746
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
In some instances yeah but to be truly one of the best in the world, you need consistency months after months. Pogba isn't a youngster, what you see is what you get. The expectation on his shoulders is ridiculous.
There have been countless examples of ridiculously talented players who have always given the impression they didn't exploit their talent consistently. Pogba wouldn't be the first one and won't be the last one
Then he's at the wrong club, because it doesn't matter how good you are, the least we expect from our midfield is to work hard...
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
No one is going to be the best in the world at current United, but Pogba definitely had the talent to be one of the best. He showcased it before he came here.

He got the golden boy, team of the year, fifpro 11, best young player, etc. All things which point to being very good in future.
He did those things you're right but what he is expected to do at United, is basically carry United like Messi does Barca and that from midfield. He's just not that type of player. Never has been and never will be.

Then he's at the wrong club, because it doesn't matter how good you are, the least we expect from our midfield is to work hard...
This is a separate debate altogether. I will agree with one thing, he will probably play better and flourish as a player at another and better club.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
What is this talent word that keeps being wheeled out ffs :lol: he’s 26 and has been playing professional football for what? 7/8 years now is it? Acting as if he’s a 17 year old who rose through the ranks of the academy and just got his league debut the other day.

At some point he actually need to showcase this ‘talent’ and he’s at an age and price tag where he should be doing just that.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
Btw I’m not saying in my above post that he’s shit cos he’s obviously not
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
8,021
Location
Ireland
He did those things you're right but what he is expected to do at United, is basically carry United like Messi does Barca and that from midfield. He's just not that type of player. Never has been and never will be.


This is a separate debate altogether. I will agree with one thing, he will probably play better and flourish as a player at another and better club.
Then let him off, because he sure as hell don't want to be here.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
What is this talent word that keeps being wheeled out ffs :lol: he’s 26 and has been playing professional football for what? 7/8 years now is it? Acting as if he’s a 17 year old who rose through the ranks of the academy and just got his league debut the other day.

At some point he actually need to showcase this ‘talent’ and he’s at an age and wage where he should be doing just that.
The notion of talent has nothing to do with age and Pogba has been one of the best players in the world since age 19, we are not talking about Cattermole.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
Then let him off, because he sure as hell don't want to be here.
I'm not holding him :lol: If the price is right and we can build something afterwards, then sure, why not ? Otherwise it would just weaken us. We've basically been playing without him this season and we are fecking shit.
 

johanovic

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
758
I´m getting really tired with this Pogba talk. I wonder if he really wanted to be here in the first place and people have been making excuses for him right,left and center. For all his talent he has not produced many great performances while in a United shirt. Some try to explain that by that he´s needs this role or that role to bring out the best in him, he need´s better players around him and so on. Of course there are some truths there BUT what about his lack of effort and not doing the fundementals of a midfield player in tracking back, moving the ball cripsly around, winning your duels and so on. He´s seems to pick and choose when he´s interested in giving his all. When Robson,Keane,Scholes,Giggs,Ronaldo and the rest had their off days on the field at least they came of the field having done those basic things a footballer needs to do. I think we should move him on and he would fit well in the dramaland that is Real Madrid.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
The notion of talent has nothing to do with age and Pogba has been one of the best players in the world since age 19, we are not talking about Cattermole.
So help me understand here. What are you guys basing the word talent on? Because a lot of posters were saying that he is better than KDB because he has more talent but what can he do that De Bruyne can’t?
 

sincher

"I will cry if Rooney leaves"
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
25,587
Location
YSC
So help me understand here. What are you guys basing the word talent on? Because a lot of posters were saying that he is better than KDB because he has more talent but what can he do that De Bruyne can’t?
Dab?
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
8,021
Location
Ireland
I'm not holding him :lol: If the price is right and we can build something afterwards, then sure, why not ? Otherwise it would just weaken us. We've basically been playing without him this season and we are fecking shit.
We are fecking shit with him as well, mate. Our whole midfield needs a revamp, and if we can get 130 million for him, we might be able to bring in 2 new midfielders.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
So help me understand here. What are you guys basing the word talent on? Because a lot of posters were saying that he is better than KDB because he has more talent but what can he do that De Bruyne can’t?
Well I don't agree with these posters, so you better ask them but talent simply means that you have natural aptitudes and in the context of football that you that these aptitudes are superior to most. I don't think that a lot of people would argue that Pogba is in a current top 50 of all players which essentially means that he is one of the best players in the world.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
Well I don't agree with these posters, so you better ask them but talent simply means that you have natural aptitudes and in the context of football that you that these aptitudes are superior to most. I don't think that a lot of people would argue that Pogba is in a current top 50 of all players which essentially means that he is one of the best players in the world.
Fair enough. And I do agree that we’ve seen what he can do at his best e.g. his last couple of seasons at Juventus. But do you also think it’s fair to say that at a certain point it becomes more about application and not just talent? For how many more seasons longer are we going to rely on talent and not his actual output?
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
Fair enough. And I do agree that we’ve seen what he can do at his best e.g. his last couple of seasons at Juventus. But do you also think it’s fair to say that at a certain point it becomes more about application and not just talent? For how many more seasons longer are we going to rely on talent and not his actual output?
Pogba has played at a high level for us and his output is among the best across all leagues even though he is inconsistent and has always been. The issue for us is that he is the only outfield player of his caliber which is a rarity in todays football and means that we are unlikely to perform at a high level as a team.
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
8,021
Location
Ireland
Fair enough. And I do agree that we’ve seen what he can do at his best e.g. his last couple of seasons at Juventus. But do you also think it’s fair to say that at a certain point it becomes more about application and not just talent? For how many more seasons longer are we going to rely on talent and not his actual output?
You could count on one hand, how many great games he had for us. Just not good enough for a supposedly world class player on wages to match.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
We are fecking shit with him as well, mate. Our whole midfield needs a revamp, and if we can get 130 million for him, we might be able to bring in 2 new midfielders.
We won't get 130 million, I don't think so. I don't trust the club to reinvest wisely, if at all, this kinda money anyway. I'd just say we're a little less shit with him on the pitch. Our team needs ridiculous investment overall.
 

Hammondo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
6,664
We are fecking shit with him as well, mate. Our whole midfield needs a revamp, and if we can get 130 million for him, we might be able to bring in 2 new midfielders.
I highly doubt we will get that much.
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
8,021
Location
Ireland
We won't get 130 million, I don't think so. I don't trust the club to reinvest wisely, if at all, this kinda money anyway. I'd just say we're a little less shit with him on the pitch. Our team needs ridiculous investment overall.
Yes, and along with a huge investment, we need to get rid of a lot more deadwood.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
Pogba has played at a high level for us and his output is among the best across all leagues even though he is inconsistent and has always been. The issue for us is that he is the only outfield player of his caliber which is a rarity in todays football and means that we are unlikely to perform at a high level as a team.
There’s certain things he does that you cannot blame on the lack of team mates of his level such as losing possession and not tracking back
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
8,021
Location
Ireland
I highly doubt we will get that much.
Fees for players has sky rocketed, and if Real, PSG, or Juventus really want Pogba, they will pay this amount for him. It's 50million less than we were looking for, last season.
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
3,198
He did those things you're right but what he is expected to do at United, is basically carry United like Messi does Barca and that from midfield. He's just not that type of player. Never has been and never will be.
The thing with us fans is, once you join the club you're judged by different standards from others outside the club. Outside the club players are judged by highlight videos of their best actions, but once they join they are judged by in-depth, second-by-second footage of every match. We're seeing evidence of that with Maguire and AWB currently.


With that in mind, there aren't that many players who will live up to their prepurchase hype, unless like Dan James they weren't hyped at all. In that case, I think players who people regard as better than Pogba playing for other teams will be viewed very differently should they join United, and their play forensically analyzed.


All that to say that I think Pogba is still one of the best in the league, but like you said he's unable to do what we're asking which is basically be perfect game to game. Very few players will be able to achieve that at our club, so I think his play should be viewed through that lens.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
There’s certain things he does that you cannot blame on the lack of team mates of his level such as losing possession and not tracking back
Like every player on earth, there isn't a single perfect player and since you mentioned De Bruyne he doesn't contribute more defensively and loses the ball at a good rate too, it's something that all creative players do. You are focusing on Pogba because he plays for United and his flaws are overstated because we aren't successful. You described his Juventus time as successful but he was losing the ball as much and he wasn't really better defensively.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
3,021
Location
London
Like every player on earth, there isn't a single perfect player and since you mentioned De Bruyne he doesn't contribute more defensively and loses the ball at a good rate too, it's something that all creative players do. You are focusing on Pogba because he plays for United and his flaws are overstated because we aren't successful. You described his Juventus time as successful but he was losing the ball as much and he wasn't really better defensively.
I mentioned these things because you, and others, have insinuated that he plays shit cos his teammates around him are and I’m simply saying that there are things that he does or doesn’t do as an individual not because of his teammates, whether he did them at his former club or not (which actually helps my point because he had good players around him at juve and still did these things as an individual so it shows it’s actually just him) or whether there are others players in the same or a similar role that do them too, is irrelevant