Yes it does. Any time an attacking player handles the ball it's a handball. You are only reading one part of the law. He gained an advantage from it, so it would be called. The advantage being it created a penalty...
Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)
- Thread starter RedFish
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It was a goalscoring opportunity. Replays showed Sterling was coming in from behind. If the ball wasn't stop he would have at least a shot on goal inside the penalty area.
I'd be happy to retract if you could quote the relevant part of the law. I genuinely can't see it in the link I gave - maybe there's a better source?
Right, but what I'm saying is that that's irrelevant. As I've said I'm happy to be corrected but as far as I can see the rule regarding the creation of a goal scoring opportunity requires that the player that handballed it gain control/possession of the ball. Silva didn't gain possession/control though.
Edit: Here's the relevant section:
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I see what you're getting at with the highlighted areas. YOu're saying because he never gained possession of the ball it should be a handball on TAA. I can see why you are making that argument, and perhaps it is something that they will reword for the next FIFA Laws of the Game that is issued. I'm sure they didn't think about a ball accidentally coming off one players hand and hitting another to cause a penalty...
"Gaining posession" in this context includes what Silva did, just as it did when Laporte handled the ball against Spurs. If the ball touches his hand it can't be a goal, that straighforward.
Also worth bearing in mind that the laws of the game don't include all the information decisions are based off. Referees are told how the law should be interpreted.
There was no pressure on gundogan. It was a very easy clearance to make, he just panicked and rushed it
As is often the case when city play liverpool, they make so many mental mistakes. City are petrified of liverpool, for whatever reason
Why do people keep coming up with this
Refs are instructed to make their own damn decisions! Not to wait for VAR to tell them what happened. Oliver let the play continue because he either didn't see the handballs, or judged them not a foul.
That is indeed how it works! Slow-mo or freeze frames are only used to determine position(for example to determine whether a foul happens inside or outside the box) and on possibly to check touch on the ball(such as checking whether the ball comes off a striker or defender for offside purposes)
Replays are shown at live speed
I don't think VAR can intervene if they think it should be free kick to liverpool. Only if they think there is cause to give a penalty to City
The Jeanie is out of the bottle and we the fans haven't gained much at all. It can be argued we are losing the excitement after the ball goes in the net. We have a new eerie atmosphere that descends on the stadium a while after certain goals go in and it sucks.
VAR has introduced a much finer criteria for offside decisions to the point where it is just about impossible for the matchday officials to decide. They will let VAR decided more and more.
I can't see this being sorted out anytime soon.
VAR has introduced a much finer criteria for offside decisions to the point where it is just about impossible for the matchday officials to decide. They will let VAR decided more and more.
I can't see this being sorted out anytime soon.
That's a good point. Yeah, as you say, although not written in the lawbook it does seem from reading around/past decisions that 'gaining possession' refers to the team rather than the individual player. Since that's the case the law definitely needs to be rewritten because the current wording absolutely specifies the individual.
That said I remain confused. In each of the instances you mention the handball led to a goal (not just a goal scoring opportunity), and the fact that a goal was scored seems to be important. I say this because watching MOTD2 this morning Chapman said that they asked PGMOL for the reasons the handball wasn't given. In their response PGMOL explicitly stated that Silva's handball would only have been taken into account if the end result had been a goal*. Since it wasn't they said that the fact it hit Silva's hand had no bearing at all on the decision. Instead they determined that TAA's arm was in a natural position and that he had no way of avoiding the contact from the deflection.
To me that seems to be transparent nonsense. Silva's 25 feet away, Aguero manages to avoid contact as it goes past him and TAA literally moves his hand into the path of the ball. What a mess.
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* I now see the argument that if a pen was given and converted then it could be said that Silva's handball led to the team retaining a possession (getting a pen) which ultimately resulted in a goal. Sadly that doesn't seem to have formed part of the reasoning at all.
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I'm a supporter of VAR but not how it is being implemented.
I'm all for the referee having support in the studio but I believe the referee should see contentious actions and make the final decision with the benefit of replays. This should be by way of a large screen in the ground so the crowd can also see it and a smaller screen alongside the pitch where the referee can take a closer look if needed.
I don't have any issue with how technology is being used in rugby, cricket or tennis, the kinks in the football version just need to be ironed out by some people with some common sense...
I'm all for the referee having support in the studio but I believe the referee should see contentious actions and make the final decision with the benefit of replays. This should be by way of a large screen in the ground so the crowd can also see it and a smaller screen alongside the pitch where the referee can take a closer look if needed.
I don't have any issue with how technology is being used in rugby, cricket or tennis, the kinks in the football version just need to be ironed out by some people with some common sense...
I listened to the Spurs game on the radio and just saw MOTD. Commentators arent helping the situation by making up their own VAR rules as they go along.
No wonder it confuses the public
No wonder it confuses the public
Ask the ref presenter is currently making a balls of VAR tryng to get Dermot to criticise it.
None of this helps
None of this helps
They are going to check the monitors by themselves after this international break. This will improve things a little and everybody will pat themselves on the back forgetting they fecked up 3 months of the season trying to be smart.
Why do people keep coming up with this
Refs are instructed to make their own damn decisions! Not to wait for VAR to tell them what happened. Oliver let the play continue because he either didn't see the handballs, or judged them not a foul.
That is indeed how it works! Slow-mo or freeze frames are only used to determine position(for example to determine whether a foul happens inside or outside the box) and on possibly to check touch on the ball(such as checking whether the ball comes off a striker or defender for offside purposes)
Replays are shown at live speed
I don't think VAR can intervene if they think it should be free kick to liverpool. Only if they think there is cause to give a penalty to City
I get that quote but surely missing the handball is a clear and obvious error. As such it should have been overturned. The biggest issue is how Michael Oliver missed such a blatant handball in the first place.
I might be on my own here but I think watching the ref jog over to the TV screen and watching it over and over is only going to take longer than the current process.
Why do people think this will speed it up or improve it?
Why do people think this will speed it up or improve it?
I came up with it because we know Oliver is a hopeless incompetent feckwit.
Tbf, that s with or without VAR helping him to be so.
On this occasion I reckon he thought VAR would sort it out.
I don't actually have much of a point to make here except to ask about VAR influencing refs to leave decisions for later. Maybe that's OK unless a goal is scored or more VAR stuff piles up.
Tbf, that s with or without VAR helping him to be so.
On this occasion I reckon he thought VAR would sort it out.
I don't actually have much of a point to make here except to ask about VAR influencing refs to leave decisions for later. Maybe that's OK unless a goal is scored or more VAR stuff piles up.
Have an appeals process. 3 per match.
Let the refs go to pitchside monitors, give them 30 seconds to come to a decision, and if they haven't reached a decision just let the original call stand. Not hard, is it?
Let the refs go to pitchside monitors, give them 30 seconds to come to a decision, and if they haven't reached a decision just let the original call stand. Not hard, is it?
This rubbish keeps getting spilled by Liverpool fans as their defense for Oliver. He clearly missed Bernardo Silva's handball then decided TAA wasn't handball.
If he had seen Silva's handball he would have given Liverpool a freekick, there is no way he would have played advantage with the ball bouncing around their own penalty box. Either way Liverpool should not have been able to counter from that situation and score.
If he had seen Silva's handball he would have given Liverpool a freekick, there is no way he would have played advantage with the ball bouncing around their own penalty box. Either way Liverpool should not have been able to counter from that situation and score.
I suppose that is my point. I feel like we're now being told that VAR doesn't change the approach of refs and especially not one as great at it as idiot Oliver.
Well they're also used for offsides, which is so against the spirit of the sport. Do away with slow mo and freeze frames altogether is my point. VAR should just be to overturn the glaringly obvious errors that are noticeable at normal speed in my opinion.
The whole thing is a joke. So many results that could have turned out different with a little more consistency.
No, I don't think so either.
Unless you believe Liverpool can do what they like because Silva handled first, but this is too much advantage after TAA has been flapping at it, imo.
It's a pretty bizarre argument given how VAR is spending 4 minutes trying to decide if a player is offside by half an inch.
I think VAR is here to stay. It is not going to go anywhere so instead of asking for scrapping it, we should ask better implementation from FA. Also this is the 1st year of implementation, it'll take couple of seasons for it to mature till then you can expect dubious calls.
This is the most bizarre thing to me - I keep reading that the handballs cancel each other out as if that's a thing that can happen in football. It's mad.
I guess if you think the TAA handball isn't a handball that's one thing (but really it is)... but yeah...
Good news on the monitors.
Yesterday after watching most of Liverpool v City, I watched Betis v Sevilla.
Chalk and cheese in terms of how it was refereed and VAR. De Jong offside call on goal quickly dealt with, officially labelled VAR image quickly supplied to the broadcaster, barely a delay. Referee kept a feisty game in check. Could enjoy some very good football.
It's really not that complicated to do VAR properly.
Problem is Riley mainly imo, needs to be sacked. Just saying we're going to finally use the monitors doesn't cut it entirely. The referees still need to be told by VAR to check them. I can bet it'll still be rubbish in the premier league after the break...
Yesterday after watching most of Liverpool v City, I watched Betis v Sevilla.
Chalk and cheese in terms of how it was refereed and VAR. De Jong offside call on goal quickly dealt with, officially labelled VAR image quickly supplied to the broadcaster, barely a delay. Referee kept a feisty game in check. Could enjoy some very good football.
It's really not that complicated to do VAR properly.
Problem is Riley mainly imo, needs to be sacked. Just saying we're going to finally use the monitors doesn't cut it entirely. The referees still need to be told by VAR to check them. I can bet it'll still be rubbish in the premier league after the break...
yep, it is better implemented everywhere else i watched (La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A)
I’m a VAR hater to be honest but if it could have indeed been implemented more effectively then Riley should be sacked because it’s a complete mess right now and it’s created a large portion of fans who loathe it.
What hasn’t helped is them changing the rules regarding handball. This has added to part of the biggest issue on VAR calls.
If the ball hits your hand unintentionally then it shouldn’t be a penalty, upon review it’s usually quite clear when somebody can react to move their hand or indeed if they moved their hand towards the ball.
That’s one issue I think they could rectify quickly if they changed the rule back.
Offsides are going to remain a sticking point, I don’t think many people like to see goals disallowed for a persons little toe being offside. I know I certainly don’t.
Ultimately they need to make it quicker and ensure it has limited affect on fan emotion when a goal goes in. The latter being the biggest sticking point for me.
Ah, now I see VAR are saying the TAA handball just wasn't a pen, on its own, as it were.
Which is dodgy but supports Oliver entirely. No issue at all and they carry on.
Tremendous.
Which is dodgy but supports Oliver entirely. No issue at all and they carry on.
Tremendous.
What the feck are you on about ?
I don’t see it getting any better. The reason FA tried to avoid the monitors was because it was the worst part for the match going fans. Imagine the number of contentious decisions we have had every week and imagine the ref walking over to see it.
It would be an even worse experience, it won’t be quick. Also, the refs will be under a lot of pressure to recheck the decisions, because again the media and fans would scream if he misses to view for one team and makes a decision to view for another.
If VAR is ever to be successful, fans have to come to the acceptance that it will compromise on the very basic idea of the game, the free flow has to go. VAR can only be successful, if it can be like stop start like in NFL
People seem to be surprised by this. Why on earth would the referees in the closed and unaccountable FA be supportive of something which shows them to be doing a shite job? Seems to me like they're almost sabotaging it to prove to everybody they're not as bad as we think they are.
This is totally false from my experiences watching games in La Liga and elsewhere, In fact I can't recall any games where I've seen stop / start NFL style. In the game last night for example, didn't even notice VAR apart from the for the De Jong offside call, less than 60 seconds to get a proper image up and allow the goal.
Referees barely ever check the screens, only for reds and penalties pretty much. Can remember it happening for reds earlier in the season for Modric and in another game, plus the odd pen call. That's it.
Quite simply, you barely notice VAR watching. They get the big decisions correct 99.99% of the time, communication is good with proper "official VAR images" for offside quickly shown.
VAR can work well from my experience of watching a lot of European football...
It just doesn't in the premier league because of the total incompetence of its implementation.
Any ref who doesn't make a decision thinking VAR will sort it out is not fit to be a ref
Simple as that
What the feck I’m saying UncleBob is the current rule on handball is shite and that we should revert back to when it was not a pen/free kick if it was deemed unintentional.
What we have seen is penalties given for ridiculous handball decisions and then a lack of consistency in following that.
A change back to the previous rules on handball imo would make it easier for the refs to decide no penalty and not have VAR overrule that decision.
He did make a decision though. He clearly waves his hands in a forceful no gesture.
I agree woth your point but Oliver seems to be getting called a coward based on standing by his decision which is unfair
Thing is you are aware VAR is there even if it’s not used- it’s reviewing every goal, so you’re seeing more & more players & fans begin to tame their celebrations incase someone was 1mm offside in the build up. It’s just making the game less enjoyable to me to be honest. The offsides & handball decisions vary game to game because it’s different refs reviewing it- it’ll always be inconsistent in that way.
The question is if you think VAR is worth it, Is it a net gain for football? For me it just clearly isn’t. There weren’t lots of horrendous decisions going by week after week it was just managers & players moaning about a close offside or an interpretation of a foul etc. Which surprise surprise VAR doesn’t solve now either