I strongly disagree with the suggestion that he's doing damage. He's signed good players, promoted youth, got our attack working better and improved the work ethic of the squad.
If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong
- Thread starter Rood
- Start date
I'm most amazed at how so many fans seem completely ignorant at how much damage the wrong manager could do in 2-3 years.
If Ole is the wrong guy, and we've no previous evidence to say he isn't, we could end up with an absolutely horrific squad by 2022, a couple of mid table finishes, fallen far behind our rivals and our reputation in tatters. It might then take a proven top manager another few years to do anything.
So if Ole is wrong, we could be looking at 5 years before we are recognisable as Manchester United again, that's if we get the next appointment right. That's some scary shit and Liverpool's situation should scare the shit out of us because it's taken almost 3 decades and how did they finally solve the problem? With one of the World's best managers, a proven manager who actually suits the club and someone everyone can trust and get behind.
If Ole is the wrong guy, and we've no previous evidence to say he isn't, we could end up with an absolutely horrific squad by 2022, a couple of mid table finishes, fallen far behind our rivals and our reputation in tatters. It might then take a proven top manager another few years to do anything.
So if Ole is wrong, we could be looking at 5 years before we are recognisable as Manchester United again, that's if we get the next appointment right. That's some scary shit and Liverpool's situation should scare the shit out of us because it's taken almost 3 decades and how did they finally solve the problem? With one of the World's best managers, a proven manager who actually suits the club and someone everyone can trust and get behind.
You're the only person to suggest it was down to him that we didn't sign players in that window. Most sensible people understand that he was a caretaker manager at the time
We've gone from 6th to 9th... so far he's done damage. The squad is worse than it was when he took over.
You're just hopeful that's he's doing the right damage and will get things right in the next windows, but damage he has done.
The funny thing is, as if the Glazers give a damn about their romanticism nonsense to begin with.
They are the very people who's gullibility and blind loyalty, the Glazers have been taking advantage of and banking on ever since they arrived.
If people like them never existed, the Glazers wouldn't have been able to get away with milking the club dry to begin with.
It's quite ironic really.
I don't get this. The last 3 managers barely managed 2 decent signings between them after spending near a billion. Ole has made 3 good signings out of 3
He has us midtable, his only PL experience resulted in relegation (and he was sacked while heading for another one), he was appointed by a man we all agree is totally incompetent when it comes to making footballing decisions, but we should give him more time and money because...........it might work and he used to play for us.
What were you saying about logic fails?
No he has not. The jury is still out on Maguire.
Have you ever stopped to consider a concept called opportunity cost?
You didn't refute any of my points there. Would that suggest you agree with them?
No point in talking past each other and then talking about logic
Has he?
Maguire was incredibly overpriced and it remains to be seen whether he's been worth getting at the expense of a midfielder/right winger/striker/whatever, and letting Smalling go.
AWB looks promising but still has a long way to go.
James looks like a bargain so far, but again, long way to go.
We had plenty of players under Jose and LvG who looked great when they first came here only to completely fall apart, it's way too early to be saying he's made 3 successful signings
If your points are correct why are we in a worse position, with our worst start to a season in 30 years?
I'm haunted by 6 years of opportunity cost. If Moyes, LVG and Jose had signed players as good as the 3 we signed during the summer each window we'd have an excellent squad now. But they didn't, so we don't. I find it kind of insane that we talk about the opportunity cost of signing 3 really good player who are performing well.
There are many supporters as yourself, every team has them. They dont really care about football they just want to feel included and part of something, a club a group or what ever. To them everything around the arena during gamedays, setting up flags, collect money for the supporter group and other non footboll stuff is more interesting than what actually goes on on the pitch. So i can definitely see your "big family" analogy. I'm on the opposite end though, i go watch footboll to be entertained, not to make friends or "family members". If i want that i call my actuall friends or family.Why do you think they were sold?
Was it because we, the fans, were booing their names in the stadium and insulting them on the internet?
I accept my position as a supporter. I'm not CEO, I'm not player, I'm not manager. I don't have any real say or choice. I just try and support. And I enjoy it
Its well and good if you are the former but dont have a go at those of us who want to watch us progress and have us play good football. Fleksnes isnt the man for us if we want just that.
As ive asked other people around here, would you want Magnus Haglund, former Elfsborg manager who won the first two gold medals since 1961. Thats about the same cv as Ole but in a better league. When Ole is fired, should we hire him?
I like him as a guy, yes.
Do you think he is doing a good job?
We are 9th in the league. We have 1 away win since March. Some of you have completely deluded yourselves.
Usually people praise players who play well. I guess that doesn't fit your argument.
I said that he oversaw 2 windows. You claimed that for sure he didn't have rights to sign ANY players in January.
Even caretaker managers can give advice and the club can sign utility players during that time.
Again what source do you have that he didn't have the rights to sign/suggest players, because this is the only claim that has been made.
Sigh, that's not what I was saying at all.
All I said is it's too early to say all three are great signings, otherwise I could claim Di Maria and Bailly were great signings too.
I really like AWB and James, but I never wanted Maguire and he's done nothing to change my opinion on that so far.
Because we didn't sign the 2 midfielders we clearly needed for the squad and had to play various unsuccessful combinations of Matic, Mata, lingard, Periera and Fred. We also needed another striker to fill in for Martial when he got injured. Unfortunately we didn't have one so we ended up playing our first choice left winger up front for 2 months.
It's the first time since the very early 90s that we didn't have decent fringe players to fill in. We started the season playing 433 with only 2 competent midfielders in the club.
Right mate. He "oversaw" 2 windows but chose not to sign players in January. Suit yourself.
Nothing to do with the manager then. Right.
Funny how Ole gets full credit for our three "good" signings but is completely absolved from any blame for not replacing our departing midfielders and strikers.
Ohhh so this attitude is an ongoing way you live your life then? I understand now, no need to pursue further.
What on Earth is going on?! This is worse than the Top Red sh*t we see in here.
In a way it reminds me a lot of the back and forth arguments I hear from my in laws and relatives that still live in and adore Russia. Comparing to how senseless and awful and full of terror the rest of the world is. But in their own borders, communism is a ray of light. Oh sure it's not perfect but we have to support it because the alternative is so sad and no way to live.
He came out and bluntly said that in the Summer there were players that we could buy, but not the right players - means he chose not to sign certain options.
In January you are the one saying that he didn't have the right to sign players - Fellaini left during that window and no replacement was brought in, despite us having issues in midfield. He might have had the chance to sign players or not - we don't know that definitely and I have not said that with affirmation that he chose not to. The only claim that was made was you saying he didn't have the rights to sign any players at the time, for which I asked you for a source.
Ok, you seem genuine here. Maguire is a good player. He's not perfect an awful lot better than the CBs LVG and Jose signed.
They signed Rojo, Bailly and Lindelof. Perhaps we overpaid for Maguire but at least we got one that's clearly good enough for the first team. I'll take that over signing more problems like previous managers did. Lindelof doesn't look good enough and we are going to struggle to get rid of Rojo and Bailly by the looks of things.
No pain no gain
When SAF took over he got us to 2nd place in 1987/88
In the following two seasons he took us to 11th, 13th, (he did damage)
In the following three seasons we improved and eventually won the league 6th 2nd, 1st
I am not saying that Ole will emulate that BUT sometimes you have to knock something down and do some damage in order to build something better instead of sticking plasters on top of plasters all of the time.
Ole may or may not be successful in the long term BUT right now he is building for the future which is more than can be said of the last five years.
Not every signing will come good (there are no guarantees) but whether it be Ole or someone else, I believe that in two years time we will have a much better squad in terms of age, hunger. There may need to be some swaps and tinkering.
It is all a matter of opinion but for me, it has to be better than hiring a top manager every other season and buying a load of mercenaries in terms of damage done.
Thats not a theme, you vs us is really tiresome stuff.
You are the only person suggesting he as caretaker was allowed sign players. Everyone else doesn't think so. You are the only person on this forum to raise that window as a criticism as Ole. I find it kinda funny to be honest. He was filling in. Why would somebody let a temporary manager sing players? Common sense should be enough.
Do you need a quote from Ed or something?
My issue with Maguire is that he cost a huge chunk of our transfer budget and isn't really much better than the player we baffingly let go on loan. I think if we'd kept Smalling and it was Jones/Rojo/Bailly we fecked out of the club instead I'd be a lot more forgiving of the transfer but alas, we did not, and I think it was a truly mental decision.
Personally I would've used that 80m to buy a midfielder or replacement striker (or both) instead and it's been biting us in the arse all season. I don't think Maguire's really done anything to improve us as a team whereas the loss of Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku without any replacements has killed us.
Whichever way you want to carve it up in order to take any credit away from Ole, he made three signings, two of which have been pretty outstanding and Maguire is no doubt going to be a long term top defender for us once we have a settled partner next to him (Tuenzebe is my hope.)
Saying that James was recommended by Giggs is a load of rubbish, do you know how many players will be recommended to a manager at one of the biggest clubs in the world? It's still Ole's job to select the right player. He get's credit for this signing just like all managers get credit or flack for all signings they make.
All three previous managers made a complete and utter mess of almost every single signing, you could argue Herrera was the only decent-ish signing. Ole made three good signings in one window.
Also this myth that he got rid of too many players and left us threadbare - why would ANY manager do that intentionally? For example the sale of Lukaku, there is nobody that will make me believe that Ole (or any manager) would sell their highest goalscorer unless he was promised a replacement would be secured. This is clearly the fault of Ed. You can blame Ole if you want but it's pointless, like I say nobody trying to turn a club of our size around with the scrutiny we operate under sells their highest goalscorer unless assurances were made from above him. Ole tows the company line and would never say that in front of the cameras to avoid the press storm it creates when a manager says he hasn't been fully backed.
Likewise I believe Ole would have no doubt wanted additions in Midfield, Ed is in charge of making transfers happen. Anybody who believes Ole would have wanted to go into the start of his first full league campaign having to field as many youngsters as we have is deluded. A child on Fifa wouldn't be stupid enough to willingly do such a thing ffs.
Players like Jones and Lingard have sat around and stagnated for the better part of a decade. Blaming those two on Ole is a stretch to say the least. Furthermore, players like Martial, Rashford, Perreira (earlier in the season) have all improved and Martial-Rashford have linked much better. Martial was moved to number 9 under Ole like most here on the CAF have been crying out for over the last few years.
The win rate needs to improve, and will when we have made sufficient additions and are not fielding teenagers and the remaining dross we've hoarded over the last years.
Criticise his win rate, style of play, whatever. But by the same rule of thumb you have to give him credit for positives, not try to undermine them, it serves no purpose other than to run him out of the club when we don't have any real replacement other than Poch and that's not a certainty.
This shit again, SAF earned the right to have a mid-table finish or two by proving in his previous jobs that he was a top drawer manager.
I’ve got no issues knocking stuff down with a manager who has previous.
I agree that we wasted 6 years. That doesn't mean that we're not still making mistakes though.
AWB & James are currently performing well. Well done for them. I don't believe Maguire is so far. He is making individual errors, his time to close down is suspect, and the organisation of the defence is shaky. Remember, we got rid of Smalling and blew our budget on him.
The reason why i'm discussing it is because there's an argument that we could have kept Smalling and that the £80m would have been better spent in midfield or attack (or both). I think we all would agree that midfield > attack > defence was our priorities before the summer. We also came out of the summer with a worse squad than we went into. So whilst those remain, i don't think it's fair to declare the past window an universal success.
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I can get on board with this to a degree. Personally I think we needed a quality CB this summer. But it would have been as a partner to Smalling. My prediction during the summer was that we would quickly end up with a Maguire Smalling partnership as Lindelof would inevitably struggle for the reasons we are all aware of. But somehow we loaned Chris out. Really poor decison by Ole.
I'm unsure about how much power Ole had this summer though. Schmeichel said he wanted 2 more but Ed didn't let it happen. They bid for a CM, AM and striker during the window so clearly Ole wanted players. But they didn't get it done. Not everyone notices but we've barely spent money for the last couple of years. I think it's much more down to Ed than Ole.
It's way too early to call any of his three signings a sure success. Matic looked excellent in his first months, look how it turned out to be.
It's still the job of the manager to select and prepare the right squad that is good enough to reach the goals set before the season, not just fill 2 or three holes, which is why all managers are judged on results mostly.
As for the bolded - it's not Ed who says who we target and who we buy, he's a CEO. He is the one who can sanction a deal or not. Most of your claims are assumptions at best, it was still Ole that came out and said there were players that were available in the Summer, which makes those points you make void.
Pereira is one of our worst players every game, I'm not sure what you have been watching in the past months. According to the CAF he has 4.7 season rating so far, does that look like improvement to you?
Rashford is exactly the same player he was last season and has stagnated.
Martial was injured most of the season so far and is in and out of games.
The only player you can claim that has improved is McT.
Positives were when he took over and we saw an uplift in our game after Jose. Ever since he was made permanent we have gone backwards compared to even last season at the same time.
Which players were these?
Yeah... hoping that a League 1 level manager can steer an Elite Global Giant back to the top...
Yeah... ok.
Yeah... ok.
The revisionism around Smalling is fantastic. This is one half of the 'chuckle brothers (a widely used Cafe term)' we are talking about. Can't pass to a player 5 yards away. A complete liability whose mere presence in the team is stunting our ability to play out from the back.
Now he is Beckenbauer - everyone loves him.
Its just another stick to beat Ole with. If we recalled Smalling in January you'd all hate him again 5 matches later
Now he is Beckenbauer - everyone loves him.
Its just another stick to beat Ole with. If we recalled Smalling in January you'd all hate him again 5 matches later
At some point our club and fans will finally wake up and realize that we tend to make wrong decision after wrong decision after wrong decision, although always with good intentions.
Moyes - never good enough, we just wanted to emulate Fergie
LVG - Quick fix non suited
Mourinho - Quick fix non suited
OGS - back to emulating Fergie with another manager who doesn’t have the credentials.
Give it another year or two and my only hope is that we finally hire and scout out a top proven manager that:
• Coaches attacking football that is a fit with Manchester united.
• Uses his Academy but also appreciates that marquee players (Cantona, RVP) also have an important place in a top side and don’t always have to be mercenaries.
Someone that we can trust to do a rebuilding job for three years even if it means some hardship along the way because we know he’s definitely worth it.
I doubt it though the way we are run, Ole will stay too long, our squad will be an average waste where our fans make out the like of James and AWB are top drawer despite the results continuing to say otherwise. As I say, it’s all very Liverpool in the 00’s right now.
Once that fails we’ll go back to an attempted quick fix.
Moyes - never good enough, we just wanted to emulate Fergie
LVG - Quick fix non suited
Mourinho - Quick fix non suited
OGS - back to emulating Fergie with another manager who doesn’t have the credentials.
Give it another year or two and my only hope is that we finally hire and scout out a top proven manager that:
• Coaches attacking football that is a fit with Manchester united.
• Uses his Academy but also appreciates that marquee players (Cantona, RVP) also have an important place in a top side and don’t always have to be mercenaries.
Someone that we can trust to do a rebuilding job for three years even if it means some hardship along the way because we know he’s definitely worth it.
I doubt it though the way we are run, Ole will stay too long, our squad will be an average waste where our fans make out the like of James and AWB are top drawer despite the results continuing to say otherwise. As I say, it’s all very Liverpool in the 00’s right now.
Once that fails we’ll go back to an attempted quick fix.
I completely disagree with this view . Ole looks to be doing the right thing and he is the 1st one since Ferguson left . Maybe it's the club as a whole who have finally realised that we can't keep chucking money at short term fixes but I firmly believe that who ever takes over after Ole will find a much better club and squad to work with ..
I stand by it. I'm not talking about what I'm saying - I'm talking about the general consensus on this forum.