I would have kept Smalling. Jones has always been the problem, in my opinion. He consistently makes everyone around him worse. But, you can't force a club to take him from us, sadly.
If you don’t understand why Ole is a gamble worth taking… you’re doing football support wrong
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But... the general consensus on the forum mimics what you are saying there. Plenty of other posters in his thread echoed sentiments like that while he was still here and when there was talk of him going on loan. People have said for years that he was the best CB we had.
I just don't know what point you're trying to make. You're essentially berating people who share your viewpoint but will criticize him if he comes back and plays shite? It wasn't Smallling people wanted rid of in the summer, it was Jones, and Rojo, and Bailly. Nobody was crying for us to get Maguire and replace Smalling with him.
I for one still believe in Ole, he is steering the players in the right mindset to compete. They need to learn to be winners and it's happening in their head. It's a long process but Rashford at some point last year did say that he was never used to win 10 games in a row and that's something Ole taught them, why it matters, why it is important.
I want the players to get this sensation again and Ole is able to bring it back to them.
For the play, we have looked lost under Mourinho or even LVG, so it's more the players not being able to execute. This will come. But what we should learn back is to be ruthless in games, and score, whether we play good or not, so that the opposition scratches their head and mentally surrender before the game starts. That's what the players have to learn from Ole.
I want the players to get this sensation again and Ole is able to bring it back to them.
For the play, we have looked lost under Mourinho or even LVG, so it's more the players not being able to execute. This will come. But what we should learn back is to be ruthless in games, and score, whether we play good or not, so that the opposition scratches their head and mentally surrender before the game starts. That's what the players have to learn from Ole.
I think if I’ve got this right Bilbo is trying to say is that anyone who either wants Ole gone or doesn’t believe in him doesn’t actually rate Smalling even if they are using it as a stick to beat Ole with. Whereas anyone who wants Ole to be given a chance for a couple years no matter what, those people are allowed to be Smalling fans.
That’s some impressive confirmation bias right there.
No I think you are mis-reading my post, or maybe I wasn't clear enough. My post that you dug out from 3 weeks ago is my opinion, my earlier post on here is commenting on the sudden change of general opinion about Smalling - and what people were saying
He's ain't heavy he's my brother
I agree - I think Smalling was the victim of being the only CB we had that anyone had an interest in, and we needed to reduce the number in our squad. He wasn't considered first team, but I'll bet he was next in line.
No I get your point completely and I don't think it's a good one.
The overall sentiment in the summer, before he left, was that Smalling was our best defender and, Lindelof aside, the last one we should've shipped out if we got Maguire. Pretty much everyone wanted Rojo, Jones, and Bailly gone before him. Yes he got a lot of stick on the back end of last season but so did basically every player in the squad because they were all absolutely terrible during that spell.
So to claim that people are fickle idiots and are engaged in pure revisionism when it comes to Smalling and will just want rid of him again if he comes back in January is false because most of those people didn't want rid of him in the first place.
If you can’t understand that Ole never has been & never will be good enough to be Manchester United manager then honestly your football intelligence needs to be questioned. There’s been no evidence whatsoever that says he’s the right man.
You’re actually actively hurting the club by putting up with this mediocre manager when we could be doing so so much better
You’re actually actively hurting the club by putting up with this mediocre manager when we could be doing so so much better
That's what you got from that? Jesus.
Go and look at posts about Smalling last season. Ask Spanner as he seems to like digging up posts. You will find numerous examples of all of those things I mentioned all over the place. Chuckle Brother, can't pass, not good enough etc etc. My comment is merely about how its now considered a huge error letting him go. Its revisionism to suit peoples agendas
Perhaps start with not drafting up extremely exaggerated arguments that literally no one has said.
Lets agree to disagree. I'd go back and find a ton of posts (probably some from you) but quite frankly, whats the point?. I'd rather watch the game.
I would have signed Maguire to partner Smalling not Lindelof. Loaning Smalling was a poor decision imo.
I think it was a very poor window. We desperately needed 2 midfielders and we bought none. Our season was ruined before it started. I don't dispute this. I said all summer that without signing midfield cover we could easily finish mid-table.
I'm just not certain whether the blame lies with Ole or Ed. I think Ole's hands have been tied to a degree. Schmeichel said he wanted 2 more signings but Ed wouldn't do it. I'm hopeful that he will be allowed to fix these problems over the next 2 windows. If he does I see no reason why he can't succeed. I haven't seen too much to criticise in Ole's management. I just think we don't have the squad to provide the consistency people are expecting.
People are afraid of the "long term damage" we might sustain with Ole here
What exactly kind of long term damage are people worried he might do? Based on what he has done so far, the plan seems to assemble a young squad that is going to serve us well not just now, but in the future as well. His 3 signings were 21(James), 21(AWB) and 26(Maguire), meanwhile the departures were Smalling(30), Darmian(29), Fellaini (31), Herrera(30), Sanchez(30) and Lukaku(26). Herrera should have stayed, but that was out of his hands and Lukaku wanted to leave so no point in keeping him around.
All the incoming players have walked straight into our first XI and improved us and he has been more than willing to give youth players a chance as well. If Ole was sacked today he would have left the squad in a healthier(not necessarily "stronger") state than it was when he arrived. People bemoan the bad results and want to see his head on a pike (kind of), but in my opinion another LvG or Jose could be much more damaging to the long term health of the club than any shite league form might be. Both of those managers put themselves and immediate trophies ahead of the club, resulting in a bunch of short term, knee jerk transfers that we really struggle with today. Between them they spent well over 600 million and what do we have to show for it now? Martial, Pogba and a bunch of deadwood we are desperate to to get rid off.
I also think confirmation bias is a problem. Some people have decided Ole is a shit manager, so they jump onto any negative like ravenous wolves, and completely ignore any positive. Take the sub he made this weekend as an example, put on Tuanzebe in midfield to help out Fred and Lingard at 85 (a sub pretty much anyone would do) and when Sheffield equalize he gets absolutely blasted by loads of posters on here who call him a clueless coward and what not. Its just absurd. I guess the same people would have been happy if we threw the sink at them and lost 4-3 because we literally had 5/10 attacking players on the pitch at that time
And no one is going to argue 4 wins in 13 is any good, but it seems loads of people are more than happy to pin all the blame on the manager without considering the conditions hes having to work under. Ole might not be a "United manager", but this sure as hell isnt a "United squad" either.
Seriously, who in this squad is a banged on top 4 player?
Pogba? Been unavailable since gameweek 2.
Martial? He has talent in abundance but his league best is 10 goals in 27 apps.
AWB? Looks great but is still only 21
Maguire? Propably is
Rashford? Hes blown hot and cold his entire career and can even do it within one half. He will miss two sitters, then score a worldie later.
The rest are either too young, too old or too shit. I would seriously be interested in hearing who all these great players are and why they are so much better than all these mid table teams we should be walking past. I often read: "We should be better than x team". Yeah, we should, but are we? If we compare the squads player for player, do we fill 10/11 spots including the bench?
Getting top 4 with this squad would be a massive achievement, yet people treat it like some requirement and use it to bash Ole with. People would then bring up the "Jose got 2nd" as some counter argument and i would say
1) Jose is probably the best in the world at getting the best out of his players
2) That was two years ago, its not the "same squad",
3) We only got 81 points that year. Had the other top teams showed up we might not even been 3rd
4) Jose only managed 6th his first year, so why not use that as a benchmark?
Ole is supposedly a terrible manager because of his lacking coaching skills and tactical skills, but no one seems to point to anyone specific, just "bad results = bad coaching/tactics", completely ignoring the fact that the best teams tend to have the best players. Does anyone think Pep of Klopp would have coached Fred into a world class CM or made Shaw immune to injuries?
That article that was posted was mostly romantic nonsense, but the message still stands. Our own fans are more than happy to throw the manager under the bus, without considering the consequences and seem to think the next flavor of the month will make everything alright when its pretty clear (to me at least) the manager is not the biggest problem right now
What exactly kind of long term damage are people worried he might do? Based on what he has done so far, the plan seems to assemble a young squad that is going to serve us well not just now, but in the future as well. His 3 signings were 21(James), 21(AWB) and 26(Maguire), meanwhile the departures were Smalling(30), Darmian(29), Fellaini (31), Herrera(30), Sanchez(30) and Lukaku(26). Herrera should have stayed, but that was out of his hands and Lukaku wanted to leave so no point in keeping him around.
All the incoming players have walked straight into our first XI and improved us and he has been more than willing to give youth players a chance as well. If Ole was sacked today he would have left the squad in a healthier(not necessarily "stronger") state than it was when he arrived. People bemoan the bad results and want to see his head on a pike (kind of), but in my opinion another LvG or Jose could be much more damaging to the long term health of the club than any shite league form might be. Both of those managers put themselves and immediate trophies ahead of the club, resulting in a bunch of short term, knee jerk transfers that we really struggle with today. Between them they spent well over 600 million and what do we have to show for it now? Martial, Pogba and a bunch of deadwood we are desperate to to get rid off.
I also think confirmation bias is a problem. Some people have decided Ole is a shit manager, so they jump onto any negative like ravenous wolves, and completely ignore any positive. Take the sub he made this weekend as an example, put on Tuanzebe in midfield to help out Fred and Lingard at 85 (a sub pretty much anyone would do) and when Sheffield equalize he gets absolutely blasted by loads of posters on here who call him a clueless coward and what not. Its just absurd. I guess the same people would have been happy if we threw the sink at them and lost 4-3 because we literally had 5/10 attacking players on the pitch at that time
And no one is going to argue 4 wins in 13 is any good, but it seems loads of people are more than happy to pin all the blame on the manager without considering the conditions hes having to work under. Ole might not be a "United manager", but this sure as hell isnt a "United squad" either.
Seriously, who in this squad is a banged on top 4 player?
Pogba? Been unavailable since gameweek 2.
Martial? He has talent in abundance but his league best is 10 goals in 27 apps.
AWB? Looks great but is still only 21
Maguire? Propably is
Rashford? Hes blown hot and cold his entire career and can even do it within one half. He will miss two sitters, then score a worldie later.
The rest are either too young, too old or too shit. I would seriously be interested in hearing who all these great players are and why they are so much better than all these mid table teams we should be walking past. I often read: "We should be better than x team". Yeah, we should, but are we? If we compare the squads player for player, do we fill 10/11 spots including the bench?
Getting top 4 with this squad would be a massive achievement, yet people treat it like some requirement and use it to bash Ole with. People would then bring up the "Jose got 2nd" as some counter argument and i would say
1) Jose is probably the best in the world at getting the best out of his players
2) That was two years ago, its not the "same squad",
3) We only got 81 points that year. Had the other top teams showed up we might not even been 3rd
4) Jose only managed 6th his first year, so why not use that as a benchmark?
Ole is supposedly a terrible manager because of his lacking coaching skills and tactical skills, but no one seems to point to anyone specific, just "bad results = bad coaching/tactics", completely ignoring the fact that the best teams tend to have the best players. Does anyone think Pep of Klopp would have coached Fred into a world class CM or made Shaw immune to injuries?
That article that was posted was mostly romantic nonsense, but the message still stands. Our own fans are more than happy to throw the manager under the bus, without considering the consequences and seem to think the next flavor of the month will make everything alright when its pretty clear (to me at least) the manager is not the biggest problem right now
We will never get confirmation but I believe we tried to sign Rabiot, Longstaff, Eriksson, Dybala and Mandzukic (as part of failed Dybala/Lukaku deal)
OK so if it's too early to judge why are we judging anybody, Ole included, at all?
If you believe Ole happily sold our best goalscorer and wasn't interested in a replacement and was happy to go into the season with a very young side then that's up to you and probably fits your narrative. I choose to believe any manager, with a good or bad track record, does not willing do such a thing.
Ed is in charge of making the deals happen. Ole identifies players and Ed spends the money. It's not a stretch of the imagination one bit to believe Ole would have wanted to sign more than three players. It's pretty obvious.
Like I say, Ole is not one to make a fuss and doesn't have an Ego like Mourinho so he has said what the board want to hear when speaking to the press. He's hardly going to say 'Oh yeah Ed fecked me over, I wanted a Lukaku replacement but Ed couldn't do his job.'
I agree Perreira has been awful recently and have said so but initially the vast majority mentioned a noticed an improvement in him, he's gone backwards the last few weeks. Like you say though, McTominay has improved as well.
My argument is there are clear positives that people are masking over in order to afford Ole no praise whatsoever. These positives were not there under the previous three managers, all three were supposedly 'More Successful and Established' managers, were given more money to spend, had stronger squads as a starting point and were afforded more time. Ole should be given the same, league position boils down to more than just the manager, unless Ole is to blame for the previous managers woeful recruitment and the shower of shite that is the Man Utd board above him.
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Good post. I agree with everything you've said there.
Some quality posts in here.
It’s hilarious how some people just don’t “get” football. You can’t explain it to them either. But the OP give it a go.
It’s hilarious how some people just don’t “get” football. You can’t explain it to them either. But the OP give it a go.
Man United need top 4. The more time we spend away from the CL the less money we will have to buy players and it becomes more difficult to attract top players. We can't have a manager who is so clueless in terms of tactics that seem to be outsmarted by every manager. It's hurting us
Tell me more about how not thinking Ole is going to come good means I don’t “get” football, wum.
We've made top 4 two times the last six years and still managed to get top players, clearly thats not true.
And if hes so clueless tactically, could you give concrete examples instead of some vague blanket statement?
Because I mean it’s obvious from the no improvement, poor/ no style of play, awful league position. It’s just ridiculous blind faith if you support him
I'd say that the circumstances in which you got your username changed are a very definition of 'not getting football'.
Crazy idea here. It is actually possible to think Solskjaer is doing a decent job yet also think he made a mistake with Smalling. Amazing right??
Another tactical masterclass by Ole today. Lose with the kids...well we played kids. Win with kids...I am a genius.
Problem with first point I've bolded is that you can persist with young players in the hope they will get better when the sad reality is that a lot of the kids that come through the academy never reach elite standards. Arsenal post-invincibles and the youngsters in SAF's last season are examples of this (in the 'where are they now' file). LVG's time here actually saw a lot of youngsters introduced but few have made it and those that have done reasonably well still have questions marks surrounding them (Martial) or aren't good enough (Lingard). I worry it might be used to justify future glazernomics, e.g we can't sign a recognised striker because that would block Greenwood's progress (Martial gets injured and we soon discover we have no main striker....Inspiring planning from the board/maybe Ole)
Second point is true. I'll bet virtually any manger would have done the same in his situation. If he'd have tried to have scored a 4th goal and we had conceded he would have been slaughtered for that too. He can't win.
The third point - Top 4 was the stated aim by the board and Ole this summer. He said so himself and said he was happy with this squad. It sounds like revisionism to make it seem we had no chance all along. I love Ole but some of his words haven't stood the test of time. I feel we're almost gearing up as a club to accepting that 4th place is gone and saying that it was never really there in the first place.
The last point, yeah I agree. My biggest criticism is with the club's board rather than the manager although i'm not sure about Ole if i'm honest. I sometimes think the loyalty towards him is preventing palpable discontent about what the Glazers and Ed have done to this club. I mean 10 years ago there was the Green and gold campaign and 'Love United hate Glazer' slogans everywhere and that's when we were winning titles. There isn't really any sign of that now.
Bringing Poch or whoever in probably won't solve this mess. It's depressing.
Good post, I couldn't agree more.
We’ve hired a massively under qualified manager, he isn’t doing a very good job but we should all want it to work because it’s romantic/nostalgic.
Does absolutely nobody else see how much of a wet lettuce he is?! He is so wet it’s unbelievable. That is not management material. It’s clear he has zero charisma and that is a huge flaw in football management. Charisma is what can motivate people.
He has to prove himself because the job should always be occupied by someone who is the best or close to being the best. We can't downsize the club to suit Ole's capabilities, he has to rise to the demands of the role. It's simple, jobs like these are for the top 5 percentile so if he isn't showing glimpses of being that then the axe should fall.
For what it's worth, I am yet to see anyone demanding a title race or a Cup double from Ole but he has to show more to earn the time. What if we spend a couple of seasons and at the end there is nothing?
It's weird to praise an awful post that's all.Jesus, we can't even praise posts now without being corrected. How desperate are you to control the narrative?
We made it to the CL 3 times in 6. With Ole at the wheel we will probably end up out of the CL twice in a row. That's bad for a club like ours
Also time and time again ole is getting outsmarted by very average manage with worse sides then ours. His record this season is horrible and the team look clueless for most of the time.
Great post
Most of the kids wont probably make it, but right now we dont have much of a choice either. LB is either a 18 year old or a 34 old. Its madness. And i dont know what plans the Glazers have, but if they want their cow to make milk they have to feed it, especially now as that cow is getting dangerously thin
Nothing wrong with having ambitious goals, but top 4 is sure as feck a lofty goal with this squad. Him saying the is "happy with the squad" is the kind of vague nonsense managers say to the press to avoid speculation. Top 4 might well be the goal, but i dont see that as very likely unless we make massive investments in January
This is the worst for me. We have a club legend getting dogs abuse while Ed who has been here all of these entire miserable 6 years escapes yet again. And this isn't even about Ole. As long as the structure at the top is this dysfunctional we will always be fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.
1 time though EL, still only two times we made top 4.
And that last paragraph could hardly be more vague. This isn't chess
Got a new contract this year, so if the club wanted to get rid of Jones they could have let him walk away.
It's a great romance story and that, but the reality of the situation is more grim when you take those rose tinted glasses off. Most if not every one of us would love for it to work with Ole but we're a year or so in to his tenure and there just isn't enough in his body of work to suggest he's got the managerial ability to take us where we need to go - challenging for the top domestic and European honours. He did fantastically well removing the dark cloud above the club after Mourinho and brang joy back to watching United again. But that run of results since PSG has been horrific and though things have been slightly better post-Liverpool, we sit 9th in the table 9 points off top four behind Wolves, Burnley and newly promoted Sheffield - who were the better team for 70minutes the other day. More concerning is that we see the same old issues with him as a coach; takes ages to react when we are getting battered on the pitch, predictable substitutions, clueless against parked buses. If we go a goal down you just don't know how we are getting back into the game if one of our forwards can't pull a rabbit outa a hat.
Look at spurs who actually had a manager rated as one of the very best in the modern game; there was no sentimentality, no willingness to waste time for some sense of loyalty (and it can legit be argued there should have been in that case). The guy had just taken them to their first Champions League final but it was recognised he had taken that group of players as far as he was going to so boom, Poch-out Mourinho-in. Ruthless efficiency - distinctly lacked at United.
Which brings me to that I'd have stuck it out with Ole through to the end of the season and see what's what, but, apparently some dude recently became available who might just be the perfect candidate for his replacement. Someone who will be sought by the very best in Europe, so it'd be absolutely mental if Ed hasn't got on the blower to that dude yet, but absolutely mental he is, so yeah. Best to just pray that Ole is better than results + performances suggest..
Look at spurs who actually had a manager rated as one of the very best in the modern game; there was no sentimentality, no willingness to waste time for some sense of loyalty (and it can legit be argued there should have been in that case). The guy had just taken them to their first Champions League final but it was recognised he had taken that group of players as far as he was going to so boom, Poch-out Mourinho-in. Ruthless efficiency - distinctly lacked at United.
Which brings me to that I'd have stuck it out with Ole through to the end of the season and see what's what, but, apparently some dude recently became available who might just be the perfect candidate for his replacement. Someone who will be sought by the very best in Europe, so it'd be absolutely mental if Ed hasn't got on the blower to that dude yet, but absolutely mental he is, so yeah. Best to just pray that Ole is better than results + performances suggest..
And we're a worse side for it. That's a simple black and white fact.
The long term damage I'm worried about:
• 3 years with no CL football leading to being a less attractive club for players, fans, sponsors, leading to less money meaning more desperate costly transfers, leading to less money... and rinse and repeat.
• "Fixing" our midfield issues by losing Pogba (due to us being absolutely wank and mid-table) and overpaying for the likes of Rice & Longstaff, ending up in 3 years time with a very "honest" British based squad that lacks massively in quality compared to our rivals.
• Relying too much on young players with no brilliant elder statesmen to show them the ropes and ease them into a great team a. la Cantona, Hughes, Pallister, Keane, instead letting the likes of Ashley Young and Phil Jones take on that role. Too much pressure on some great talents leading to unfulfilled potential.
What else? I mean, in any sports club or business, letting someone take the reigns for a few years can cause massive damage, but that's just common sense isn't it?
As I say, at some point we'll realise that identifying a brilliant proven manager in the Manchester United mould and having a long term plan to get him is what will see us back to the top and set us on a good path. Our problem has been either hiring "romantic" managers or non-suited managers and doing a 180 every year or two on what we as a club want to see on the pitch both in terms of personnel and tactics.
We'll get it right eventually I hope, but I'm fairly 100% certain it won't be with a nostalgic manager, it'll be with a Klopp-esque manager that is in the United mould and has proven himself beyond doubt prior.
Couldn't agree more. The progress is evident.....getting rid of players not suited to our clubs style of playing such as lukaku and fellaini, getting rid of sanchez also a good move and seems to have created a better squad harmony/spirit. It is going to take a while to reverse 6 years worth of shite decisions, ole is doing that. We are improving and I believe we could mount a decent title challenge with 3 or 4 more very good signings, his transfer record is very good thus far even if the squad is pretty threadbare, better to wait for the right players as we should know by now. City and liverpool have both peaked and will need major surgery over the next few years and they can be caught. How people cant see the improvement between now and 12 months ago is beyond me.
This post symbolises why posting on this forum is so tiring.
Rating a CB we have loaned out higher than 2/3 of the dross we had play against Sheff. Utd isn’t revisionism or even that outrageous an assertion.
I’m yet to see anybody hold him anywhere near the same regard as Beckenbauer because guess what, nobody does.
The dismissal of any opinion that someone isn’t in favour of on these forums is ludicrous.
I haven’t even personally posted on Smalling so your comments aren’t in any way directed at me but honestly what kind of post is this.
I’d much rather side with those saying OgS should have kept him in favour of other players rather than someone who needs to exaggerate a point & still not make one.
No one is likening Smalling to CB greats; most are questioning OgS letting him go ahead of others. end of.