Remember that Arsenal-game?
I think that kind of sums it up. de Gea outstanding. We a bit lucky.
We need to talk about our defence...
- Thread starter andersj
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I think that kind of sums it up. de Gea outstanding. We a bit lucky.
Or bring Smalling back
Disagree strongly.
Going by attributes Smalling would complement Maguire better. He's fast, very good with his head and he can't be bullied, which are Lindeloff's weaknesses.
Even if we sign someone world class or Tuanzebe convinces in the role, I'd rather have Smalling as back up rather than anyone else, though of course it seems he wants a starting role.
I keep saying, Maguire needs a beast alongside him - not a meek, 'tidy' CB like Lindelöf. Tuanzebe could grow into the role but I dunno. Someone like Milenkovic would be a really solid partner for Maguire but CB is nowhere near our pressing matter.
I think Smalling is the 2nd best centre-back on our books currently, but I agree with you, and the reason I agree is that his form in Italy so far makes it fairly likely that we will receive a decent transfer free for him that we can reinvest in more important areas.
I actually doubt that we wanted to let him go this summer. We were (are) so overloaded with CBs I suspect we were shopping for buyers on all of our squad CB's with the view to accepting whichever acceptable offer came first. Rojo hasn't played enough to convince anyone to offer what he is worth, Bailly (almost forgot about him) was crocked and Jones seemingly attracted little to no interest, so Smalling it was.
Come on lads,lets add a touch of realism here please regarding our defence at the present time.It is ok, maybe slightly above average at best,lets not carried away and start thinking that Harry Maguire in particular,is going to be some kind of world beater and the same regarding Lindelof too.They cannot,of course,control the transfer fees payed for them by the Club nor the wages they are paid either however surely we can find two better central defenders in world football than these two,if not,going forward, I do worry about our progress in terms of competing with the top sides both in England and Europe.Lindelof seems to get caught out of position on average maybe 4 or 5 times during the course of every game I watch him play,which is every game at home and the vast majority of them away from Old Trafford.He is often too easily bullied and is neither strong enough nor in my opinion good enough to be playing at the top top top level.I wouldn't say he is the quickest and he certainly doesn't command his area and fill you with confidence when playing against the better forwards and front players in our league.As for Maguire,he is for me one of the most over-rated defenders around and I am a United Season Ticket Holder of over 40 years, so it pains me to say this and I take no pleasure in doing so but he lacks pace pure and simple, in fact he looks very slow at times and we know how important pace is in the modern game,more important I would say than at any other time in our sport.He does not read the game as well as supporters and pundits think and for a big lad who is supposedly excellent in the air, I have lost count of the number of occasions, he has been out jumped in the box when defending his own box and again brushed off far too repeatedly in the tackle.Lastly with him, I was not happy with the way he turned his back on Longstaff I think it was, who scored that goal for Newcastle against us at St James'Park.A player like,for example, Nemanja Vidic or John Terry or Vincent Kompany would have bust a gut to try and get out to block that shot and strained every sinew to do so.Look at it again and you will see he turned his back and made no effort whatsoever.Luke Shaw is another one,very very over-rated in every possible way,his positional play is atrocious when defending and of course, no -one could possibly argue against the fact he is injury prone, carries excess weight and is the type who would slip on a bar of soap in the shower,sprain his ankle badly and then miss 10 games in the process.I do rate Wan Bissaka and think he will be a very good player for us in time though, , he is no Alexander-Arnold is he and I believe they are the same age.The last player to mention and to get a favourable one too(well I guess I have to try and finish the post was a positive,right) is Axel Tuanzebe who looks like a player to me and could well over take the established two of Lindelof and Maguire in terms of importance for this United team over,say,the next Year to 18 months.Cheers.
We are undoubtedly a lot better as a team defensively.
Some of that is clearly attributable to the arrivals of Maguire and AWB. On the right, AWB has been a wall for the most part, hardly letting crosses or attackers get into the box. In the middle, Maguire has been a good leader to bring a bit of calmness and is good in the air. Their arrivals have also meant that for the most part we settled back line and that also helps with DDG.
Thing is last season, we were just shit front to back as a unit defensively. We allowed for teams to be on top of us rather than press higher. We were constantly changing the backline and a midfield that allowed for runners to go on by. Not to mention a flaw that continues today, we are not very organized yet on set pieces, we seemed to constantly gifting opportunities. We also had an out of form keeper that was culpable for a few goals. There were so many goals we gave up so it's hard to remember them but, going through the season, it didn't seem that it was our CBs that were at fault most of the time. This season, while we've only conceded a few, a lot of them have been down to the defenders making mistakes or not doing well enough.
With our style change, consistency in the back 4 and also having better cover in midfield has been a big reason we are back to a decent side defensively. We still have a work though to talk about our defense as a something really strong.
The defenders themselves, there are some flaws that really need work. One obviously is Lindelof that needs to be stronger overall, especially in the air. The other is we have got to step up to meet attackers when playing a higher line. Right now, almost every time the opposing team breaks the lines and our CBs are faced with an on coming attacker, they back of, back off and engage them at our 18 yard and seemed to easily then get turned. Then there is AWB who is phenomenal one on one but, there is work he needs to be doing in relation to the rest of the line, he's been caught out a few times positionally - something that should improve given the right coaching.
Some of that is clearly attributable to the arrivals of Maguire and AWB. On the right, AWB has been a wall for the most part, hardly letting crosses or attackers get into the box. In the middle, Maguire has been a good leader to bring a bit of calmness and is good in the air. Their arrivals have also meant that for the most part we settled back line and that also helps with DDG.
Thing is last season, we were just shit front to back as a unit defensively. We allowed for teams to be on top of us rather than press higher. We were constantly changing the backline and a midfield that allowed for runners to go on by. Not to mention a flaw that continues today, we are not very organized yet on set pieces, we seemed to constantly gifting opportunities. We also had an out of form keeper that was culpable for a few goals. There were so many goals we gave up so it's hard to remember them but, going through the season, it didn't seem that it was our CBs that were at fault most of the time. This season, while we've only conceded a few, a lot of them have been down to the defenders making mistakes or not doing well enough.
With our style change, consistency in the back 4 and also having better cover in midfield has been a big reason we are back to a decent side defensively. We still have a work though to talk about our defense as a something really strong.
The defenders themselves, there are some flaws that really need work. One obviously is Lindelof that needs to be stronger overall, especially in the air. The other is we have got to step up to meet attackers when playing a higher line. Right now, almost every time the opposing team breaks the lines and our CBs are faced with an on coming attacker, they back of, back off and engage them at our 18 yard and seemed to easily then get turned. Then there is AWB who is phenomenal one on one but, there is work he needs to be doing in relation to the rest of the line, he's been caught out a few times positionally - something that should improve given the right coaching.
We can't keep on strengthening the defence while having a non existent midfield, RW and forward line. Ole is an attacking manager remember? Seriously, the only position that needs serious strengthening is LB. Shaw is shot.
De Gea has declined, Lindelof and Maguire are slow, Shaw is useless weather present or injured and frankly AWB is poor going forward and playing out from the back in my opinion.
So in all honesty we are still shite.
So in all honesty we are still shite.
I agree. Get Chilwell and improve our midfield.
And sell Jones, Smalling and Bailly. Bring in a «cheap», young talent to give Tuanzebe and Rojo competition for third choice (and hopefully Lindelof). Then sell Rojo.
Our defence is pretty good. When we do concede, it’s rarely the fault of one individual defender, but rather due to a lack of clear communication within the back four. We need to improve here.
On this forum, posters are quick to assign fault to whichever player is not their favourite. Its usually not so clear cut.
On this forum, posters are quick to assign fault to whichever player is not their favourite. Its usually not so clear cut.
We clearly need a left back. Shaw will never be dependable, Young is shite and Williams might not develop as we've seen with many of our past youngsters who the caf drops their pants for.
Get rid of the two frauds, let Williams be back-up, and bring in a top LB.
Get rid of the two frauds, let Williams be back-up, and bring in a top LB.
We need to talk about Kevin and the Curious Case of Benjamin Button have inspired too many thread titles. Hopefully a new movie can take the mantle.
The defense needs left back, preferably one who is an attacking threat. Would complement Wan Bissaka who is defensively superb.
Hopefully Tuanzebe can step up and replace Lindelöf, who is just too soft. Tuanzebe's pace should also complement Maguire, but I rate Maguire highly.
A new goalkeeping coach can hopefully get De Gea to leave his line more often, he is not coming out for crosses who are there to be caught.
The defense needs left back, preferably one who is an attacking threat. Would complement Wan Bissaka who is defensively superb.
Hopefully Tuanzebe can step up and replace Lindelöf, who is just too soft. Tuanzebe's pace should also complement Maguire, but I rate Maguire highly.
A new goalkeeping coach can hopefully get De Gea to leave his line more often, he is not coming out for crosses who are there to be caught.
English speakers are weird that way. Rest of the world (for the most part) do things the same way but the native English speakers have to set themselves a part for some reason.
I want Williams to be given an opportunity to make that LB position his own. In the games he’s played, he hasn’t looked out of place in the 1st team.
Our midfield and attack are far more bigger concerns than LB.
The defence has been fine. It’s creating chances and scoring goals which has been our downfall.
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And yet we have the 4th best defence in the league in terms of goals conceded, with the much vaunted defence of the runaway leaders having only conceded one goal less than us, and the champions conceded 2 goals more. l would prefer our back four at the moment to city's. Our focus needs to be at the other end and midfield, where there is a serious lack of options if plan A is not working.
Watched City’s match today and must say the defence was horrible. Had Lindelof or Maguire played like that, they would have been slaughtered.
Our defence is like James Bond car in Die Another Die. It's expensive, and invisible.
Don't worry, you'll have some idiots coming in with stats to tell you that we've been unlucky in defense and that were actually good at the back.
We're terrible the moment anyone decides to attack us and we'll be exposed as the season goes along when everybody realises how shit we really are.
We're terrible the moment anyone decides to attack us and we'll be exposed as the season goes along when everybody realises how shit we really are.
And some just glad the club get rid of one of the best defensive centerback to Roma.
Not sure how the club figured that the healthier and better defender out of Smalling and Jones doesn't get to stay at the club.
Ever thought Smalling wanted out, and Jones didn't?
Not to mention someone wanting the former, but not the latter?
Smalling for me is better than Lindelöf, let alone Jones. But clearly not Ole.
I have never once believed that we actually fixed our defence by adding Maguire and AWB for 130m combined and getting rid of our best defender for measly 3m while completely ignoring the midfield.
Ole supporters here though kept talking about the fixed defence to prop up Ole like what he did was the best thing any manager could do in this situation.
Ole supporters here though kept talking about the fixed defence to prop up Ole like what he did was the best thing any manager could do in this situation.
The club made it clear he wasn't part of their plans when they practically gave new deals to everyone in defense other than him.
An extra body in defence is never going to be the right tactical switch if that extra body is Phil Jones. We would have been much better off with an extra body in midfield in that first half.
I can only assume Tuanzebe wasn't capable of playing 90 today otherwise he surely would have started ahead of Jones.
I hope Ole is ruthless and decides that Jones has now let us down for the last time.
I can only assume Tuanzebe wasn't capable of playing 90 today otherwise he surely would have started ahead of Jones.
I hope Ole is ruthless and decides that Jones has now let us down for the last time.
No chance I'm afraid, they whopped him on a ludicrously long contract. Which I can only imagine is some clever accountancy thing of inflating the value of our assets.
And he wasn't even played any full game on the whole Summer friendlies. It's clear that Ole doesn't even consider him worthy as squad player, which is shocking decision.
Smalling got a new contract last season.
Our centrebacks are the one area where we've spent tons of money yet it is still by a long way the weakest area of our team.
I mean if you asked me to name the best two, I'd probably say Tuanzebe and, I dunno, Lindelof? And even this is just based on the fact Tuanzebe hasn't played for us much so by default has been less shite than the other options, while Lindellof has his flaws but at least doesn't do mind bogglingly stupid shite multiple times a game like the other two.
All three goals today, either Jones or Maguire did something so stupid that Ole would have been justified immediately subbing them off and dropping them for a month. Jones on the first gooal needs no explaining. Jones in general, we know what he is. He likes sitting on the floor. He is the joker card you play in the hope he injures an opposition player before he costs you a goal or/and injures himself. There isn't really an excuse for putting him in the team when there is the option not to.
Maguire for the second goal was running after someone who was running towards the corner flag...why? You;re the fecking centreback, stay in the centre. No one is going to score by running towards the corner flag without the ball. Not only that, but the only reason the bloke wasn't 3 metres offside was BECAUSE Maguire was following him. As a direct result their striker has a free shot on goal and scores. Then on the third goal he literally stops and claims handball INSTEAD of adjusting his body to block the shot which he could easily have done. Even as one offs these level of mistakes are unforgivable. The second borders on unprofessional. The probem is he's doing stuff like this multiple times every game. He also did his trademark trick again today of pointing at the opposition player HE should have been marking, instead of marking them. The bloke is an absolute disgrace of a defender. I now we paid £300m for him or whatever, but I genuinely think he's the worst of the lot. He is supposedly good on the ball, but this is just an English thing where people assume a defender is good on the ball because they take absolutely fecking ages to pass it. He very rarely does anything good with the ball. Sometimes he stops and stands on it, which actually infuriates me more than any of his defending, because it's such an unbelievable pointless and counter productive thing to do.
I don't like him.
I mean if you asked me to name the best two, I'd probably say Tuanzebe and, I dunno, Lindelof? And even this is just based on the fact Tuanzebe hasn't played for us much so by default has been less shite than the other options, while Lindellof has his flaws but at least doesn't do mind bogglingly stupid shite multiple times a game like the other two.
All three goals today, either Jones or Maguire did something so stupid that Ole would have been justified immediately subbing them off and dropping them for a month. Jones on the first gooal needs no explaining. Jones in general, we know what he is. He likes sitting on the floor. He is the joker card you play in the hope he injures an opposition player before he costs you a goal or/and injures himself. There isn't really an excuse for putting him in the team when there is the option not to.
Maguire for the second goal was running after someone who was running towards the corner flag...why? You;re the fecking centreback, stay in the centre. No one is going to score by running towards the corner flag without the ball. Not only that, but the only reason the bloke wasn't 3 metres offside was BECAUSE Maguire was following him. As a direct result their striker has a free shot on goal and scores. Then on the third goal he literally stops and claims handball INSTEAD of adjusting his body to block the shot which he could easily have done. Even as one offs these level of mistakes are unforgivable. The second borders on unprofessional. The probem is he's doing stuff like this multiple times every game. He also did his trademark trick again today of pointing at the opposition player HE should have been marking, instead of marking them. The bloke is an absolute disgrace of a defender. I now we paid £300m for him or whatever, but I genuinely think he's the worst of the lot. He is supposedly good on the ball, but this is just an English thing where people assume a defender is good on the ball because they take absolutely fecking ages to pass it. He very rarely does anything good with the ball. Sometimes he stops and stands on it, which actually infuriates me more than any of his defending, because it's such an unbelievable pointless and counter productive thing to do.
I don't like him.
Our defence is just a mess that needs a miracle to fix. Its not really the personnel but the organisation that is failing us. We should be aiming to defend first as a team before individuals. Things like tactical fouling when the team loses the ball are so lacking, not kicking the ball long to invite second wave attacks are basics you'd think the players would have, failing to be decisive whilst in less dangerous areas of pitch to try retrieve the ball. All we seem to do as a club when defending is fall deep to the edge of our box, which then is reliant on individuals being good to stop balls, something that we are struggling with.
I enjoyed that little rant to be fair
I think Maguire is better than what you're describing here, but nowhere near worth the 85m paid. And I definitely think he's better than Lindelof who can't win an aerial battle to save his life. What sort of centre back is that? I'll tell you what, a false centre back. A new hip thing that we are trending, it's just not catching on. Tuanzebe through virtue of not playing also retains a high status in my mind. Hopefully he delivers when he's back in the team proper.Tonight was the first time I really paid attention to AWBs positioning. Which is really poor. An outstanding one vs one defender, great athlete, will get better going forward too, but the main thing he needs to learn is his positioning.
However, we are worst by a mile in midfield. That's where teams kill us. We really need a new midfield.
I've seen Maguire have decent games for sure. He was good on the opening day against Chelsea. He had a goood game against Leicester, but he makes SO many unbelievably dumb mistakes. He is actually more dopey than Phil Jones, which is really an achievement.I enjoyed that little rant to be fair
Tonight was the first time I really paid attention to AWBs positioning. Which is really poor. An outstanding one vs one defender, great athlete, will get better going forward too, but the main thing he needs to learn is his positioning.
However, we are worst by a mile in midfield. That's where teams kill us. We really need a new midfield.
Lindelof is weak in the air, weak when facing up to a player one on one, poor at positioning himself on crosses, but you know, he doesn't just stop playing as the other team is about to score, or run off chasing some shiney thing that caught his attention despite it very obviously having no bearing on where the ball is going to go. You have a chance ofmaking it througha game with Lindelof, providing no one challenges him in the air, or runs at him, or crosses it towards him...I mean it's a long shot but sometimes you might get away with it. Maguire gives you no chance with some of the stuff he does. He makes it impossible for an opposition player not to get a chance, short of them tripping over their own feet (and he has actually been bailed out a few times due to this happening!)
Midfield needs attention, but at least there is hope there. McTominay has improved and Fred can be useful. Pogba has bags of ability. We got killed there today because we have such poor squad depth in that area. One injury is a crisis for our midfield. The frustrating thing about centrebackk is we have about 7 of them but it really doesn't matter how many of them are or aren't injured because our defending in that area remains incompetent regardless.
Agree with AWB. I think positioning is something that improves with experience. He drifts away from his man too easily especially late in games. If we're going to leave the three up top to counter he needs to be braver. Agaiin though at least we see evidence he can imrpvoe and can do these things properly.
Liverpool got VVD for 70 mil
We got Maguire 85 mil.
How far are they apart?
We got Maguire 85 mil.
How far are they apart?
I think if tuanzebe can stay fit he will really complement maguire. Agree that lindelof is a little soft and the lack of pace between lindelof and maguire is troublesome. Need Axel to step up. Or bailly
This was dumb as feck ... I mean I suppose it's a natural reaction to claim for handball, but Jesus Christ, in a VAR world where you should know that if a ball hits a hand then that will be that - do your fecking defending first.
It's not very good I'm afraid.
Please pay attention to the lack of support our defense gets from our midfield. They get none. That said, Lindelof keeps getting bullied by everyone.
We have Fred and Pereira in front of them today, so today isn't the day for judging them as such!
Williams looks to have a booking in him every game
Wan Bissaka's early season invincibility has worn off a little.
Williams looks to have a booking in him every game
Wan Bissaka's early season invincibility has worn off a little.
It's not terrible either but we do have high standards, part of that because we witnessed some of the greatest defences under SAF and part of that because of how much we invested.